Theory Lessons.

[way2fat]

Using an Em scale over a G chord is what I was trying to say, I think. I'm still laughing at the mental picture I have of Herman trying to reassure the moms at their first concert.

[Raven]

Gettin' to far down the list......

 

B U M P

[Dave Brown]

A natural Em scale is exactly the same as a G scale. It just so happens that it starts on an e rather than a g. Emphasizes the sixth, making it kinda a G6 chord. Does no violence to the harmony

 

Change to the E dorian by adding a C# and it is still do-able, giving a "Meet George Jetson" sound to the harmony. Change to the E harmonic minor by adding a D# and the thing gets weird. Change to the E melodic minor by adding C# and D# ascending, then D and C natural when descending, and you've lost your mind trying to make it all work.

[way2fat]

If I use an Em scale to solo over a G chord, (this is hypothetical, I don't solo yet), and the Em scale is the same as the G major, am I harmonizing?

[jeremy c]

no.

[Dave Brown]

Originally posted by way2fat:

If I use an Em scale to solo over a G chord, (this is hypothetical, I don't solo yet), and the Em scale is the same as the G major, am I harmonizing?

Play and em scale and a G scale at the same time and make it work, now that's harmonizing!

 

Harmony is the process of adding chords to a melody. This can be done in several ways...play a solo with at least 2 notes. Two or Three people playing solo at the same time.

 

Or...take a simple melody (Three Blind Mice) and add interesting chords under the melody.

 

Now, you don't automatically make harmony just by having 2 soloists going. "Layla" is a good example. 2 great guitarists playing solos, but the solos aren't harmonizing with each other. On the other hand, listen to virtually any Doobie Brothers with Joe Walsh...those guitars work out harmony very well.

 

The simplest way to experience harmony is to play in thirds. Get a friend and play the G scale. Your friend starts, you wait 2 notes then you start. (While he plays a b, you start on the g.) Automatic Harmony.

[way2fat]

Thanks guys. Harmony is a word I hear all the time, but I guess I didn't really understand the meaning. I always took it to mean that if something doesn't clash with something else-harmony. If the two guitars aren't harmonizing in Layla, why do they sound so good? If a third person waited to start on the d in Dave's example then a listener would hear a progression of chords, right?

[I I mjrn]

Yes that would be a progression of chords.

 

As to why the guitar parts in Layla sound good: both players are working in the same scales (with occaissional extra notes) & they're both very skilled impovisers. The first thing keeps them from clashing & the second makes the parts interesting.

That sort of polyphonic approach (I keep thinking there's a more accurate term for this but it escapes me at the moment ) is how a lot of early New Orleans jazz bands worked; the players soloing simultaneously rather than working on the same theme.

It's not uncommon in two guitar blues/rock bands like early Yardbirds, etc. Johnny Winter's band with Rick Derringer used this approach a lot, too.

Another modern jazz approach is the "harmolodic" approach of Ornette Coleman.

 

I'd like to point out that while harmony is usually coordinated to definite scales, it's quite possible & sometimes very effective to be a bit more free & work by responding to each note or phrase of a melody with a changing harmonic background, although this tends to work better with smaller groups of players.

[way2fat]

Dave- Joe walsh played with the Doobie Bros.? I'm surprised I don't like them more.

[BassGtrGRL]

Thanks!!!! GREAT STUFF!!!!

[Raven]

Just in case someone's missed it.....

 

BUMP.....

[Whacked]

Crikey!

 

Sooo much good reading here.

 

Thanks a ton for putting this thread up

 

Bumpin it on up to the top

[dhurstlmt]

Just bumping this up to the front in hopes that Jeremy will be inspired to continue in his quest to enlighten the less informed. Thanks a ton Jeremy. Always looking forward to whatever you have to offer

[Mike F.]

Bump...

[way2fat]

Bump.

 

-------------------------------------------------

"I'd hardly call the finest speakers in the world, quote, "lunatic fringe"". Jeremy Cohen

[Nicklab]

Here's a thread that needs to be bumped up.

[way2fat]

Bump City. I wish there were a way to fix this thread at the head of the list.

[g.]

That's why a book by Dr William Fowler is superior.

[way2fat]

?

[g.]

You can take it with you wherever you go and not need a laptop, and the stuff is comprehensive and in good sequence for learning, edited to be incredibly understandable and engaging.

 

And comprehensive. Did I say that yet? Chock full of examples and so worth having.

[Jimbroni]

Got a title?

[moot]

Johnny Winter's band with Rick Derringer used this approach a lot, too. - MJRN

I cut my rock teeth on the "Johnny Winter And" live album. Must have been all of 10. Johhny and rick played off each other in a natural, loose, sloppy, mind bending, holy s*^t kinda way. Can still play some of those awsome leads note for note.

 

Great reading here fellas.

[g.]

Got a title?

Yes... Sir. It's Sir. I wanted to be a Duke but John Wayne and Of Earl were hogging.

[g.]

Lot of the better theory tidbits I've seen around these parts have come from the Keyboard Corner (no big secret why a keyboard is so useful for understanding HARMONY stuff). They may be tidbits, but they lead to full-scale assaults of the waste-line.

 

 

equal division of the octave

 

Frank Zappa\'s chords and modes

[g.]

So. Any startling insights into equal-spaced chord progressions and key centers, or chromatics?

[jeremy c]

I should hang out over there.

Those people know how to write.

 

I have studied George Russell's book and Nicholas Slonimsky's book and many, many others.

 

If you listen to song #12 on my cd, you will hear a symmetrical chord progression on the solo section. It moves up in minor thirds....that's why it never seems to resolve, it just seems to get higher and higher. It was written specifically to do that.

My CDbaby page

Unfortunately the sample fades out just as we get going. The keyboardist played a brilliant solo.

 

You'll have to buy the cd to hear the whole thing.

 

The melody owes a little in concept to Freedom Jazz Dance and the name of the song, Papa's Sweat Pants continues the allusion.

 

You can use symmetrical ideas for soloing when you play sequences. The geometry of a bass neck lends itself very neatly to symmetrical ideas.

 

Coltane was actually using "Coltrane changes" or the type of progression used on Giant Steps before he wrote the song. He was superimposing the progression on top of one chord. You can find exercises which do this in many improvisation books.

 

I often have my students practice diminished chords moving up in minor thirds and augmented chords moving up in major thirds. It makes perfect sense to me.

[g.]

I've enjoyed writing and playing rock songs that have segements of aug and dim changes spacings. I also enjoy using consecutive minor chords where expectations have been to use dom7 or major triads. There's just so many interesting ways to dice it all up. Studying the ones that others have wondered about and then executed has inspired me to want to work out interesting things too.

 

I think it was maybe the Beatles that had me looking into all the Tin Pan Alley conventions before I understood ii-V-I or had looked at the guys who wrote so many of what became the jazz standards. The Beatles are not a bad place to start.

[jeremy c]

In my previous post I mentioned that I wrote a section of song using some of my theory knowledge in order to get a specific effect.

 

The song works and you don't have to know anything about what I was doing to listen to it.

 

Another writer could have discovered the same progression by sitting with their guitar and doodling around until they discovered the sound.

 

I knew what it would sound like when I wrote the chords on paper. In fact, I knew what it would sound like before I wrote the chords on paper. I heard "the sound in my head" and wrote it down.

 

My theory and ear training knowledge allowed me to do this.

 

And of course, one corollary is that if you only listen to one kind of music, you will have a limited number of sounds in your head. You will find it hard to imagine something really different from you are used to.

[J.A.]

*bump*

[Rick Hoffman]

~bump~