Theory Lessons.

[way2fat]

So E/G# is telling the piano to play an E chord and the bassist to play a G# note?

[jeremy c]

Originally posted by way2fat:

So E/G# is telling the piano to play an E chord and the bassist to play a G# note?

Exactly!

[way2fat]

Thought I would bump this up to the front. I see some new handles out there who must have many of the same questions.

 

...I would hardly call the best speakers in the world "lunatic fringe".... - Jeremy Cohen

[Jimbroni]

This thread convinced me to sign up for this board.

So here's a bump.

I've been lurkin at this board for a long time now. You guys have one of the best forums period.

The acoustics forum is cool too, but I'm an acoustics engineer by trade, bass player by passion.

For the record, I'm a mode junky so my playing more or less reflects that. The info on chords came at a crucial time for me as I just picked up an acoustic guitar Martin DM to use as a song writing tool as well as campfire fun toy. As the chords I've been learning on guitar were like on the side of the revine and you guys just built this cool bridge for me. THANK YOU

[I I mjrn]

Hmmmmm...I've just read the section above concerning voicing extended chords & the need to include the 3rd.

This reminds me of a recent discussion over at the Keyboard Corner. [see here

 

As can be read there was a great deal of controversy over whether the 3rd should automatically be sharped to prevent an alledged discord with the 11th.

 

Your thoughts?

[jeremy c]

You can't sharp a 3rd.

 

But you should never play the third on an 11th chord....it will clash.

[Jimbroni]

I was a little trigger happy. I thought what do you mean you can't sharp a third then I realized.

Well you can't sharp a third. That said its quite common in a bluesy progression to play both the major and minor third over 7/9 chords to build up to the release or maybe chromatic run to the IV. I've never tried it over a 13. I think I will go home and see what it sounds like.

[jeremy c]

The chord with a major third and a minor third is called a 7#9. #9 is the same as b3.

 

You wouldn't want a regular 9 in there along with the #9. A 13 would be interesting. Then you'd have two sets of dissonances.

in a C13#9, you'd have C E Bb Eb A.

 

Don't play the 11th in a 13th chord.

[Jimbroni]

I have a question that might apply to this thread.

I have read in several places that a common progression in Jazz is the I-ii-V Progression.

I'm curious of ways to use it properly or what is a standard way of playing it. No doubt those chords sound wonderful in ton arrangements, but I've never been trained. I'm a self taught rock /funk groove player. I've read alot about jazz theories, but have never had a disciplined class so I have some major holes in my theory knowledge. Perhaps there are some examples you guys might know that use it to point me in right direction.

[jeremy c]

it's actually II-V-I

 

The song Autumn Leaves starts:

|Am7 |D7 |GMa7| CMa7|

|F#m7b5 |B7b9| Em| Em|

 

That's II V I IV in G major

followed by II V I in E minor

 

It's a typical chord progression.

 

The song Tune Up starts:

|Em7 |A7 | DMaj7 |DMaj7|

|Dm7 |G7 | CMaj7 |CMaj7|

|Cm7 |F7 | BbMaj7 |EbMaj7|

etc.

 

The first line is II V I in D major

the second is II V I in C major

and the third is II V I IV in Bb major

 

Start looking at the chord progressions of jazz standards and you'll see this all the time.

[Jimbroni]

Thanks Jeremy,

So you do start with the (ii). That does always seem to ring better. I just assumed I was doing something wrong thinking why doesn't the (I) sound right.

What about measures do you space them out evenly, or is their some kind of pattern like is used in the 12 bar blues. That said I'm not a formula type player, but sometimes these things open doors for new licks/ideas.

The example you provided touches on something else that I'm weak on. Changing Key's I tend to play in one key alot, granted I know all the modes so It does go somewhere, but not far enough.

I'm not sure about when and why you should change keys.

[the.circular.motion.rub.it]

ive got me a theory question too

 

in a new song i recently finished, theres is this chord (voiced like this from low to high):

 

G C Eb A

 

what chord is this exactly?

 

im calling it a Cmin b7 (2nd inversion), tho i dont even know if such a chord exists...

 

i guess you could also call it a Cmin #6, i dunno

 

or maybe its an Amin b5 add9?

 

arrgh im all confuzzled

[jeremy c]

Jimbroni, there isn't a standard pattern like there is for a 12 bar blues. Every song is different. But the II V I business is one of the common elements of a lot of progressions.

 

the.circular.motion.rub.it,

your chord could be called Cm6/G or Am7b5/G. But we had a whole conversation in another thread about how you really needed to know the function of a chord to properly name it. What are the other chords in this progession.

 

A Cm6 is 1 b3 5 6 or C Eb G A and Am7b5 is 1 b3 b5 b7 or A C Eb G.

[ClarkW]

Originally posted by the.circular.motion.rub.it:

ive got me a theory question too

 

in a new song i recently finished, theres is this chord (voiced like this from low to high):

 

G C Eb A

 

what chord is this exactly?

 

im calling it a Cmin b7 (2nd inversion), tho i dont even know if such a chord exists...

 

i guess you could also call it a Cmin #6, i dunno

JeremyC has given you some good names to start on (context is important, as he said), but I would like to point out a small error in your naming scheme.

 

You proposed the name of Cmin b7 (2nd inversion). While a C minor triad (C Eb G) can describe a chord that exists in the Dorian, Phrygian, and Aeolian modes (which are the ii, iii, and vi modes, vi being the common "minor" scale), one thing that ALL of those three modes have in common is a "flat seven" also called a "minor seven," and in the case of the key of C minor, is a Bb. Thus, saying Cmin b7 is actually being redundant. If you were trying to describe the A with that b7, it would technically be a bb7 (double flat seven), sometimes called a "fully diminished seventh."

 

Siminlarly, calling it a Cmin #6 may be misleading because the C Dorian mode has an A in it, not an Ab like the Aeolian and Phrygian modes. If your song happens to be written in the key of Bb, then that A is just a 6, not a #6. And like JeremyC said, that would make it just a Cm6/G.

 

My teacher calls this whole exercise "Playing Chord Detective" because there are all sorts of clues to be considered, not all of them obvious at first.

 

EDIT: And footnote, even though I said that the A might be a "fully diminished seventh," I don't want to mislead and make anyone think that's a diminished chord. The G would have to be a Gb, and it would properly be spelled C Eb Gb Bbb in that case, if I'm not mistaken.

[kad]

Originally posted by the.circular.motion.rub.it:

ive got me a theory question too

 

in a new song i recently finished, theres is this chord (voiced like this from low to high):

 

G C Eb A

 

what chord is this exactly?

As others have mentioned, context is the only way to really assign a functionally correct name to a chord when its notes comprise multiple potential structures. The notes in question form a C minor 6th, A half diminished, etc. Add a natural D and adjust the order of the notes a bit and you have a very beautiful structure called an Eb Maj13b5.

 

Taken completely out of context and given the voicing you mentioned (G C Eb A), I would be most inclined to call it a Cmin6 drop2. However, that's strictly academic since context is everything!

 

Kirk

[the.circular.motion.rub.it]

Originally posted by jeremyc:

Jimbroni, there isn't a standard pattern like there is for a 12 bar blues. Every song is different. But the II V I business is one of the common elements of a lot of progressions.

 

the.circular.motion.rub.it,

your chord could be called Cm6/G or Am7b5/G. But we had a whole conversation in another thread about how you really needed to know the function of a chord to properly name it. What are the other chords in this progession.

 

A Cm6 is 1 b3 5 6 or C Eb G A and Am7b5 is 1 b3 b5 b7 or A C Eb G.

ok sorry dudes my bad, heres the chord progression

 

Cmaj7 (GCEB) / ??? (GCEbA) / Gmaj (GBDG) / Gmaj / Fadd9 (FACG) / ??? (GCEbA)_ / Gmaj (GBDG) / Gmaj

 

hope that helps

 

I know a fair amount of theory (bass lessons, high school music theory class i took last year, a lil private sstudy), but i a mstill a neophyte theorist ( ) .... so thanks for the help ya'lls

 

pieces

[I I mjrn]

Originally posted by jeremyc:

You can't sharp a 3rd.

 

But you should never play the third on an 11th chord....it will clash.

Not to get a "round & round" thing going but I disagree but I suggest that we all try variations here to see (I mean hear) the effect.

The classical definition of these chord's construction includes the 3rd as well as the 11th (enharmonically equivalent to the 4th, of course).

 

I asked yor opinion & don't really mean to argue but given your earlier statements I was surprised at your answer.

 

I find that there's no clash, any more than in the case of a maj.7th as long as the notes aren't voiced in conjunction, that is, next to one another but in diffent octaves, as the effect of the chord is intended to be.

Part of the effect of the chord is the contrast between the notes but in differnt octaves, not as a cluster.

 

...but thanks for responding...

[jeremy c]

In the case of the 11th chord, there is the classical definition, it includes all 6 notes, you are correct. In terms of popular music and jazz practice, the 3rd is not played. Look in any book on chord voicings for jazz guitar or jazz piano.

 

Most chords are voiced in 4 notes and when the higher number chords are played, notes are left out all the time.

 

I also agree that half steps can be played in a chord when revoiced over an octave. This is what gives the sound of a C13 chord (with Bb and A) and a C7#9 chord (with E and Eb).

 

The "classical definition" of a 13 chord would include the 11, but I never hear anyone playing that note when they play the chord.

 

So there are other definitions which include common performance practice.

 

It is my personal belief that the current way of spelling chords as C9sus4 or Gm7/C stems from the fact that the average player does not know how to voice a C11 chord and the editors of the books have chosen to use the other names in an attempt to get the proper notes played. I haven't seen a C11 chord in commercially published sheet music in a long time.

[the.circular.motion.rub.it]

Originally posted by the.circular.motion.rub.it:

Originally posted by jeremyc:

Jimbroni, there isn't a standard pattern like there is for a 12 bar blues. Every song is different. But the II V I business is one of the common elements of a lot of progressions.

 

the.circular.motion.rub.it,

your chord could be called Cm6/G or Am7b5/G. But we had a whole conversation in another thread about how you really needed to know the function of a chord to properly name it. What are the other chords in this progession.

 

A Cm6 is 1 b3 5 6 or C Eb G A and Am7b5 is 1 b3 b5 b7 or A C Eb G.

ok sorry dudes my bad, heres the chord progression

 

Cmaj7 (GCEB) / ??? (GCEbA) / Gmaj (GBDG) / Gmaj / Fadd9 (FACG) / ??? (GCEbA)_ / Gmaj (GBDG) / Gmaj

 

hope that helps

 

I know a fair amount of theory (bass lessons, high school music theory class i took last year, a lil private sstudy), but i a mstill a neophyte theorist ( ) .... so thanks for the help ya'lls

 

pieces

i think i solved my problem... i think im gonna call it A half diminished 7

 

maybe...??

[jeremy c]

the.circular.motion.rub.it, whatever you call it is ok. The idea is to get your music performed properly so the name has to be understandable to the players.

 

Your chord progession doesn't follow any "normal rules" but of course that doesn't matter. It sounds fine and that is what counts.

[Jimbroni]

Well Saturday and Sunday I was fiddling around, with some concepts dicussed here. I ended finding some killer groove on bass and just like jammed 2 and a half hours. . Didn't do anything on the six string cause I was so caught up in grooving.

 

I was playing an A7 gruv with a 3rd, #9, & 6.

I wanted to see how Jeremy's suggestion of A13#9 would work, but I was too busy grooving to play the guitar. I'll try again tonight.

 

By the way any suggestions for fingering a A13#9 or A7#9 on guitar? I'm a guitar newbie.

[jeremy c]

A7#9

E A D G B E

5 7 5 6 8 8

 

or

E A D G B E

x 12 11 12 13 12

[Jimbroni]

Jeremy,

You Rule!

However, you're contributing to my laziness.

 

Thanks,

 

Jimbroni

[Jimbroni]

On second thought. This looks like some kinda chinese finger torture .

[jeremy c]

an A13#9 is even worse:

 

E A D G B E

5 4 5 5 7 x

 

or how about this:

at least it's playable. you don't have to play the open A, let the bass player play that note.

 

E A D G B E

x 0 11 12 13 14

[Jimbroni]

Jeremy,

I tried out the chords, the 13#9's actually seemed easier to me, especially the last one. And by the way it sounded killer. I ended up recording my bass gruv on the ADAT so I could play along. Then I just started strumming all the chords we've been discussing on my acoustic.

 

A7 to D9 worked well and A13#9 was a good suspense builder. The gruv has a big hole in the end so the A13#9 filled it nicely.

 

Now I'm working on a break, which right now going to B minor seems like real natural shift. I'm not sure why.

 

Thanks,

 

jimbroni

[way2fat]

Is there a technical name for playing in the relative minor of a key? e.g., The song is in G and I play in Em.

[jeremy c]

If you are playing a bassline in the key of E minor and the song is in the key of G, the technical term for that is "wrong".

 

If you are soloing and using an Em scale over a G chord, the technical term for that is "starting on the 6th degree of the scale." Some people would say you are soloing using the Aeolian mode.

[Thomas Wilburn]

Bump.

 

Started working my way back through Jeremy's list of chords today after having a conversation with my guitarist about walking.

[Raven]

((((Jeremy)))).. this is an awsome thing you're doing.... I can't begin to tell you how much I appreciate it.

I know it will help me improve not only as a bassist, but as a musician. I love it....

 

You're one awsome dude...

 

Thanks again