Theory Lessons.

[Deep Creek]

As Lucy once screamed at Linus - "THAT'S IT!!"

 

This is excellent and very much needed for this 13 year veteran who is a newbie in theory (or at least one who has forgotten what he learned years ago)

 

Thanks a ton.5 to all of you.

 

[Therion]

Just a Bump eheheh ! (bump bump bump)

GREAT POST...I'M SERACHIN SOMETHING LIKE THIS ON THE NET AND FINALLY I FOUND IT!!!! THANKS A LOT JEREMYC.

[Bartolini]

Jeremy, following scales, in my opinion are minor scales even though 3rd is not flatted. They are derived from Raga system. Try following on the bass. Are there any names for these scales?

 

1. b2 3 b5 5 b6 7 8 b9

2. b2 3 4 b5 4 3 b5 6 7 8 b6 5

[Bartolini]

I'm sorry, above should not be in minor scales. Changed my opinion after humming the scales to myself.

[MasteroftheGfithfretDstrin]

Bless me and explain what a "bump" is?

[Skout]

Originally posted by MasteroftheGfithfretDstring:

Bless me and explain what a "bump" is?

By putting "bump" in a post it puts in this case a lesson at the top of the forum, so more people can read/learn from it.

 

Skout

[MasteroftheGfithfretDstrin]

Oh, bumper!

[jeremy c]

Bartolini, I don't recognize your scales.

 

They look interesting. Are there Indian names for them?

[ClarkW]

Originally posted by Bartolini:

Jeremy, following scales, in my opinion are minor scales even though 3rd is not flatted. They are derived from Raga system. Try following on the bass. Are there any names for these scales?

 

1. b2 3 b5 5 b6 7 8 b9

2. b2 3 4 b5 4 3 b5 6 7 8 b6 5

#1, if played alone (no chord behind it) would just sound like a minor pentatonic with a #4 (b5) and major 7 thrown in. Shift all the numbers down a half step and it's just

1-b3-4-#4-5-b7-7-8. I can't imagine the racket that would make if I tried to play a Db minor pentatonic over the top of any scale in the key of C, though.

 

#2, just from looking at it (here at work with no bass handy) sounds like a good walking bass line to lead into a key change up a tritone. But that's because I'm revisualizing it a half step down as

1-b3-3-4 | 3-b3-4-- | b6-b7-7-5 | b5 <- New key.

 

I guess I'm just not a big fan of stuff that starts on b2.

[Bartolini]

With my limited knowledge in Raga scales,

#1 is derived from Raga Thodi.

#2 is derived from Raga Lalit.

 

In fact the way #1 & #2 ascend is not to start from b2.(no harm doing it). But the stipulation is that you are to start from low octave 7 and then avoid root and b2 ..so on. Hiding the root is a great feel. Once you come back to root, that is where the ich is.

 

there are various ways to run. eg.for #1 b5 3 b5 6 7 b9 10 b9 8(root), 3 b2 3 b5 6 7 b9 7 6,

b2 7(low octave) b2 3 b5 6 7 6 5b .. so on

 

I also noticed that under basic theory scales in Jazz, Rag Thodi is listed with the tag 'Thodi Thata'

 

what ever, I wish I could play jazz, I pick famous jazz lines of great guys like Stanley Clarke(who's lines are pattern based), Wooten(I noticed him using 'Thodi Thata' on Bass Day(if I remember right ), Jaco etc. With all this lines, I am only dreaming and absolutely have no fluence in combining or weaving runs from chord to chord, scale to scale etc.

 

Thank you Jeremy, for your great post!

[ClarkW]

Hmm, when you put it that way, Bartolini, I can see where those would come in very handy. My knowledge of eastern music, particularly Indian, goes little beyond the ability to pronounce the words "shanai" and "tabla" so I don't have a really good frame of reference.

 

Seems like you could construct a pretty good bridge that would sound "way wierd" to western ears, building up a lot of tension, and then like you said, hit it on the root with a huge resolution. Better hope the guitars, keys, horns, etc know what you're doing though and are in on the changes, or else you're going to get some funny looks from them.

[Hepnurecords]

OK - Dogmatic theory geek warning.

 

Yes, they sound minor. STARTING from flat 2. Just as a major scale sound minor starting on 2. Dorian.

 

But flat two implies a one. The point you must listen from. Semantics yes, but still important.

 

I too am rusty on my eastern scales but to a western ear these are very much in line with the altered scale. With a few grace notes a sim-dim come to mind. But NOT minor... if the implicit One is included.

 

Really, a scale can't start on any note BUT one with out being a derivative of the scale that does start on that one. See dorian note above.

 

Flame away.

 

D.

[Bartolini]

Who wanna learn scales, modes, chords etc? Check this Bunny Brunel quick time Video's and man, he's such a nice person to donate his knowledge free to the world. Excellent!!

 

check on video's on lessons ( 1 to 16 ) and its so damn worthwhile to keep it recorded.

 

http://www.cyberschoolofbass.com

[Bartolini]

In addition to Jeremy's excellent post, I thought of giving this link here as the videos / sound will ease one to comprehend stuff listed here in the posts. Really sorry if I offended anyone.

[Wally Malone]

I don't believe I found this link on the Lowdown and don't remember what news group I got it from but think some of you may like it. It's by Marc Sabatella and is called A Jazz Improvisation Primer . I'm curious to see if Jeremy and DBB have seen this and what they think of it. It can be used on-line free of charge but please respect the writer as to not downloading it, if you want a hard copy order the book.

 

Wally

[davebrownbass]

Pretty neat stuff there Wally.

 

Of course, I'm no jazz expert...but a cursory look was very interesting, and I'm bookmarking it for further study. I was really intrigued by the list of original tunes available...

 

I have a hard time learning this kind of stuff in front of a computer....old fashioned I guess. I prefer a real book with pages I can take notes and scribble and curse and so on.

 

I did think of this thread when I purchased a book t'other day. The Jazz Bass Book by John Goldsby, a BackBeat publication (same as The Bass Player Book) is simply the best compendium of jazz bass knowledge I've ever seen....it covers harmony, melody with melodic examples, the evolution of lines (theres a page that has 12 different solos ideas over rhythm changes taken directly from 12 different bassists spanning 40 years!...also one for blues and a few other choices.)

 

It also has a separate chapter for each of 70 different seminal jazz basses (just a page or 2, but really great reading) AND a practice CD. Real bargain at 25 bucks!

 

I will compare this Sabatella site to that book.

[jeremy c]

I've seen that book online, Wally. It's ok.

 

When I was coming up, I studied the books of David Baker and Jerry Coker.

 

I think the best books out there now are Mark Levine's two books, The Jazz Theory Book and The Jazz Piano Book.

[orphan wells]

I'm a music theory major right now and all the stuff that I am learning is a little abstract (mostly 4 part writing) I know how to apply all of the stuff to bass but i wish there was a more concise bass playing thory that involved chord structures and passing/leading tones exclusivly. Maybe even a little counterpoint for harmony. Most of the stuff I am learning is for composing, which is heplful, but i would rather learn how to be a better bass player. Is there a book or a class somewhere or do i just need to pay attention in school?

[Wally Malone]

Originally posted by jeremyc:

I think the best books out there now are Mark Levine's two books, The Jazz Theory Book and The Jazz Piano Book.

Mark's books have been recommended to me by a few jazz guitar players ass well, looks like I should check those out.

 

Wally

[davebrownbass]

Orphan,

 

The theory you study follows the same principles as are given here...but they are based in the 18th century. Harmony expanded a lot in the intervening 200 years.

 

First, learn that stuff well...it will pay big dividends in developing bass lines.

 

Second, I'll bet you are learning the circle of fifths. I've seen jazz guys turn it around an make a circle of fourths...(just reverse it...put the F chord clockwise of the c) This can help you visualize the natural progressions, especially in jazz.

 

There are lots of great books, and courses in jazz theory will help. Depending on your level, they might be a tad over your head at first.

 

The books jeremy mentioned will be great, no doubt. The one I mentioned takes a melodic approach at music theory (of course, as Dan reminds us, scales and chords are the same thing, so extrapolating, melody and harmony are too!)

[Lawnmower8]

Less talk, more theory. And thank you all for your contributions thus far. We all need it...

[BenLoy]

bumping this to the top again. it would be great to have this thread locked as a "sticky thread" wouldn't it?

[_Sweet Willie_]

Originally posted by BenLoy:

bumping this to the top again. it would be great to have this thread locked as a "sticky thread" wouldn't it?

[g.]

I'm pretty much taking the route Gary Willis talks about. It deemphasizes playing exercises (I think there's an assumption there that the people reading his stuff know scales and chords and the patterns that make them), and emphasizes playing what you want to hear when you practice - having ideas and solving any problems they might pose by examining the technique it takes to play the things you "hear" in your mind's ear.

 

It's probably going to go against the grain to suggest that you explore music this way even in practice, but I don't care. I've got only so many hours in the day and constructing lines and solos in 3rds, 6ths, etc - is not as important to me as working with IDEAS. If those ideas include moving 3rd and 6ths around I do it of course ; }

 

I wouldn't recommend that people who don't know what all this stuff means just play their ideas, because it's more likely they will just play what they can already play, and not learn the chord theory they should be learning to access more. But right now it's appealing to me, along with transcribing parts of horn solos, etc.

[BenLoy]

Music is the best teacher, greenboy, I agree.

 

But given that some people on this forum show up not knowing the difference between major and minor chords, I think the deserve to have a thread like this at the top of the board.

[g.]

BenLoy, assuredly I was not debating that point : }

[jeremy c]

What Greenboy is saying is an advanced step.

 

After you know all your theory and harmony and scales and the melodies of the songs (as Mike Dimin would wisely say) and everything else, you forget about it and play what you want to hear.

 

If you don't have all this stuff under your belt, you will only play what you know.

 

And some types of music are way more theory dependent than others. If you are playing jazz you not only need to know all this stuff, but you also need to know the history of jazz soloing.

 

If you are in an experimental band, one of the goals is to avoid the familiar. If you don't know what the familiar is, it will be harder to avoid it.

[g.]

J,

 

Yep.

 

Though I think melody as found in verse or chorus is overrated as the way to approach building music in some styles, that is not to say that melodies should not occur when working from the plane of thinking FIRST of rhythm, texture, shapes, moods, cool chord concepts, etc.

 

And again, as an aside, a lot of great rock guitar playing does NOT leverage the vocal melodies (which often aren't built to BE melodies per se, working often from more limited choices than jazz standards and classics), but instead creates its OWN melodies and hooks, often self-contained and modular.

[Dan South]

I was lucky enough to learn about scales, intervals, etc. when I was quite young, so to me, playing what I HEAR goes hand in hand with my understanding of theoretical constructs. Blah blah blah! Can I make this sound any less interesting?

 

Okay, an analogy. Suppose you go to Japan, but you don't know how to read Japanese. You can't read any street signs - yes, I know that today many of them are duplicated in Western characters, but follow along for a moment. Anyway, you learn to find your way around town by feel. The shoes store is four blocks north, three blocks west. You never rely on any signs.

 

Then you take a course in the Japanese alphabets (there are THREE of them!) and learn to read a bit. Little by little, you begin to understand some of the street signs. The places you know by "feel" you still go to automatically. But now when you're looking for someplace new, you have two complimentary skills. You have a familiarity with the layout of the city, and you have the ability to read maps and street signs. One skill doesn't impede the other; rather, they're complimentary. Your brain starts to use both at the same time, and it makes you a better navigator.

 

Okay, back to bass. I spend some of my practice time playing freely. My objective is to link the ideas in my head to the strings and the fretboard. Sometimes it happens by feel. I know that if I slide my hand so much in one direction, I'll get a certain result. Other times, I'll hear an idea in my head and think "Oh, yeah, that goes up a fifth and then down a minor third." And that's what I do. The skills are complimentary.

 

A lot of people balk at theory. They assume that it's some external accounting system for music. It's not. It IS music. Every time you play a bass line, you're putting theory into action. Even if you don't understand the relationships of the notes that you're playing, the relationships are still there. Even if you can read that street signs, you still know how to get to the shoe store. It all works together.