Recording Session This Weekend

[Edendude]

I'm recording a four song professional demo with the band this weekend. Should be fun. We have some nice tube mic pres, my collection of AKG mics, plus a Sennheiser 602 for the kick, and our guitarist's Yamaha aw4416 to use as our recording platform. Gonna DI the bass off my Eden tube pre, of course.

[Tom Capasso]

Good luck !!

 

What kind of stuff? Who wrote it? What instruments? How will the recording be done (all instruments at once? rhythm section then others?)

 

How can I answer your question if you fail to provide all the details (yeah - we guessed about your DI choice) ????

 

Oh yeah - you didn't ask a question

 

Well - you can answer mine, and have fun !!

 

Tom

[The Fonz]

Originally posted by Edendude:

Gonna DI the bass off my Eden tube pre, of course.

run your amp in a seperate room and mic it, though i probably didn't need to tell you. it just fattens up your sound amazingly.

[g.]

A track only needs to be so fat, my man ; }

 

...Unless the room between the Bit Floor and Ceiling has expanded since last time I visited - and all the unnecesary furnishings, such as guitarists and vocalists, have been moved out.

 

Seriously, there are a number of ways to do it and the very same ways can be used to hork things up. Micing with a raging rig can really make a lot more lively of a sound than the DI ever will. Lots more interaction. Sometimes the right DI EQ combination is better for the particular music though. When in doubt, do what that no-better-than-the-others-he-works-with Mixerman would do: record multiple sources. This is sure to add complexity to mixdown or comping ; }  It's kind of like having a team of writers redoing a really good screenplay until it moans for mercy, just because the muckamucks in HWeird don't have any real class ; }

[The Fonz]

i didn't mean that as an alternative, but as a seperate track. instrument direct, live mic, and amp direct is how i like to be recorded.

[Edendude]

Hey guys...thanks for the input...

 

The demo is actually going to be 'two' three song demo CDs...one aimed at rock clubs, and the other aimed at blues clubs. One original and two cover tunes on each.

 

The instrumentation will be bass, drums, and two guitars, plus a lead vox and a couple of harms tracks.

 

The bass will be DIed from the Eden tube pre 'only'...trust me...you need nothing fatter than the sound that comes off the Eden DI! We are talking HUGE, with about 50% of the Eden 'enhance' scoop dialed in.

 

Four mics on the kit...a pair of matched AKG C3000s overhead, a Senny 602 on the kick, and a 57 on the snare/hats. And we have a Demeter four channel tube mic pre for the kit mics.

 

A 58 on the Laney, and a KM184 on the Mesa Dual Rect. Both axe amps will be miced in other rooms.

 

An AKG C1000 for the vocal scratch tracks, later to be redone with one of the AKG C3000 large diaphram mics.

 

We're trying to capture a live feel, as you would expect with a blues/rock band, so we will all be in the same room, with the vocalist as far away from the kit overheads as possible, to try and control and bleed into the drum tracks. The vocals, as I said will be a scratch track, so bleed into the vocal track is not an issue.

 

My own gear is old school...A Tascam TSR-8 half inch, a DA20 MKII DAT deck, and a Mackie, but for this demo we are using Scott's new Yamaha AW4416, so I'm quite interested to see if it lives up to it's stellar reputation as the ultimate demo recording platform.

 

Any of you guys own or have experience with the AA4416?

[MattC]

Edendude, I don't doubt the phatness of your bass pre, but still, be open to new possibilities as far as tone. If you are aiming for that live feel, you might want the mic'ed bass anyway. When you mix down, you want as many ways to affect your tone as possible. You may use the mic'ed bass, you might not. Trust me, it's a whole different animal in the studio, especially with bass. What sounds great live almost never sounds really good in the studio.

 

Here's an idea: Take a mic made for bass drums or low toms (preferably NOT the one used on your band's bass drum, otherwise you might be more likely to develop some muddying up between bass and kick) and an SM57. That, along with the DI'ed bass, should give you everything you want.

 

best of luck!

[g.]

Ah, if one knows what they are doing and what musical goals they are to be serving a DI and good outboard studio gear is still often favored over micing for bass. I too would caution one to not think the Eden DI (or any other) is the World's End. It's just one of many modest facilities really compared to the Siganl Chains Of The Stars ; }

 

But hey - there have been a zillion good recordings where ONLY DI + outboard chain, or ONLY mic'd cabs have been used, and trying to cover all basses (sic) by double- or triple-tracking is often an unnecessary extravagance in terms of budget and sidetracking an engineer or producer who already knows what sound to get for the particular music in question. If the guy or gal has it let THEM work the gray matter. If they don't, THEN pitch in with all the bad advice you get here ; }

 

Do note that good use of compression is usually a big part of recording bass. Multiband or vintage compression earns some extra points too (see signal chains of the studio greats or use local Search for more on this).

 

Have fun!

[Edendude]

I do have access to a Senny 604 tom mic. I might stick that on a cab if we have enough mic pres. But the reason I'm confident with the Eden DI alone, is because it has been a 'tried and true' tool for me in the past. I am certainly open to all posibilities and options, but this is simply a 'go for what you know', and 'don't fix it if it ain't broke' approach for me. And besides...the Eden really does sound unusually nice for recording bass. Try one sometime...you'll like it I sure.

 

[Christopher]

I'm an advocate of DI-ing bass guitar. IMO, there's no better sound than a passive bass going through an Avalon U5 straight into a board.

[Will Kesling]

Hey, sounds great, I have a Yamaha AW4416 also, so if it is any help I would not suggest using theon board effect for vocals. Not unless you guys like dabbling alot. The effect library is a good starting point but I found the presets for vocals to be less than desireable. Over all the machine can give you an incredible sounding demo though. If you have further questions on recording post something for Where02303..err I can't rember his numbers but I am sure he know alot aobut recording or go to www.about.com and then to their homerecording forum. Godd luck.

 

Will

 

One life....One destiny

Thirteen Colvmnms

[Edendude]

Thanks again guys for the input.

 

Hopefully I'll have an MP3 or two up later on next week, so you can have a listen and give us some critical feedback on the finished product.

 

Scott's other band has four commercial CDs under their belts, the last of which he produced and engineered himself. The guy is also a professionally schooled audio engineer, so I have a lot of confidence in his abilities. I have a feeling this demo is kind of a test run for an upcoming commercial CD production we're hoping to be working on early in the new year.

 

And about the Yamaha aw4416...

 

Scott says his only complaint about the unit is the I/0 section. I mentioned to him that I might like to make an analog archive of the raw tracks on my TSR-8 half-inch. He says it can't be done, because the machine only has 4 balanced analog outs. Bummer! Seems very odd to design a sixteen track recorder which can't even give you an 8 track analog output signal, doesn't it? I could do a SMPTE sync and grab the tracks in real-time, but I was hoping to avoid the distraction.

[where02190]

I recently tracked some basic rock stuff and the bassist wanted to use jsut his eden out. I tracked a mic (AKG C-4000B, running his head through our Ampeg B-15-N with an EV force series loaded). As we listened to the tracks back, he made an offhand comment on how phat his amp send was, and ti was all one ever needed for recording. I muted the mic track, and he looked at me in shock. Althought eh amp direct track sounded very good indeed, the added qualities of the miced cabinet gave it additional characteristics that the DI was incapable of, because of the electrical to mechanical energy transfer of the speaker. (I time and phase align the mic and direct, which puts the icing on the cake so to speak.)

 

Limited thinking is quelling your natural artistic creativity. Break the rules.

[g.]

I always enjoy your informed posts, wherezip -

 

Indeed, there are many ways to make an instrument fit the music. Some cheapie boxes like the ART tube stuff can sound like a million bux when the song is right for it, and I've often used unlikely chains and had people ask me how the hell I got that great sound. Conversely, I've often complimented home recordists or project engineers on limited budgets on their handling of the situation and gotten back some unlikely answers.

 

Applying creative solutions and using the ears is what it's all about ultimately.

[Lee Flier]

Edendude,

 

My band records all our stuff on my AW4416 and it does very nicely for us (you can listen to lots of MP3's of us on our web site). We've never recorded bass using a DI although we may try in the future combining a DI signal with the miked cabinet. I have an Ampeg B-15 and our bass player uses that - I just throw a Sennheiser 421 on it and it sounds great. Actually I think you will be pleased with the way the AW4416 records bass - so long as you record 24 bit the bass sounds very rich with not too much effort. I always have to tweak the bass far less in the mix than any other instrument.

 

If you do want to mic your cabinet, the Senn tom mic should do quite well. I am not wild about using a 57 on snare, nor the 3000's as overheads, but if you're really patient with mic placement you should be able to get a decent drum sound. I would point the 57 away from the hi hats and try to get as much of the snare by itself as possible - the overheads should be picking up the hats quite nicely, whereas the hats in the snare track with a 57 tend to sound crappy. Really, get as much of your sound from the OH's as possible and move them around however you have to, and however unorthodox the positions end up to be, to sound good.

 

The onboard effects on the AW are not too bad, but I agree with Will that you shouldn't use the presets. Just experiment with the effects on your own. One tip I can offer is that for beefing up vocals and snare drum, the "compander" (which is both a compressor and expander) works quite well and sounds better for some reason than the AW's onboard compressor, which can be a bit milky sounding.

 

If you guys start getting really serious about this recording stuff and want some killer effects, Waves makes a card for the AW4416 which features a bunch of its fabled plugins, and if you have the card you get all those plugins as if they were internal on the AW! A VERY cool addition to your rig, and you also get 8 channels of lightpipe I/O on the card.

 

As for the I/O, there are expansion cards available for the AW4416 which allow you to add I/O channels. This is a good idea because different people have different I/O requirements, and you can get any combination of I/O on the cards - analog, lightpipe, MLan, etc. You can also swap out the cards easily so that you can do digital transfers on one session and analog inputs on another, or whatever you need.

 

Good luck and let me know if you have any more questions! The AW does have a bit of a learning curve especially for an inexperienced engineer, but it's a wonderful machine for the money, once you master it.

[where02190]

Originally posted by Lee Flier:

[QBI have an Ampeg B-15 and our bass player uses that - I just throw a Sennheiser 421 on it and it sounds great.[/QB]

Greatest studio bass amp ever made. I got one a few years back, a 62, all original from the original owner, who was selling it because "I'm too damn old to carry that damn thing anymore!!!" Bought it for $200, what a steal!!!!!!!

 

I loaded it with an EV force 15", and man, what a sound. the 421 will do it well, hjowever if you ahve a LD condensor, give that a shot. My mic of choice is an AKG C4000B.

 

Remember to time align the tracks, as the amp will be a few ms behind the DI, and check phase, as often DI signals can end up inverted dependin gon the DI wiring.

 

If you really want to "drule" here's a picture:

http://www.npstudios.com/pics/AmpegB15.jpg

[Edendude]

Well that certainly went beyond expectation...

 

That Yamaha AW4416 is a quite a versatile tool, I am thoroughly convinced. We managed to lay down the beds for five songs in four hours, and by the end of the day we had all the guitar, lead vocal, and harms tracks redone, and a rough mixed burned to CDs for all concerned to ponder.

 

I have an MP3 of a decent rough-mix of one of our originals pending on MP3.com. I'll be sure to post the link here for criticism, as soon as it's live on the MP3.com website. In the meantime, here's a few photos of myself and the lads having some fun in the studio on Saturday...

 

http://herne.tripod.com/studio.html

 

[Sandman]

Nice, i'm psyched to here more from Edendude. Shy Mary has been in my car for some time. Great stuff.

[Edendude]

Thanks Sandman. Glad you're diggin' the Shy Mary CD, still. I think you're gonna find this new band's stuff VERY different from the Shy Mary stuff.

 

Damn it I wish MP3.com wasn't so freakin' slow at going live with the uploaded MP3s from non-paying low-lifes like me. Cana't wait to hear what all you golden-eared types think of the original cut we recorded on Saturday.

 

[Edendude]

I finally got the MP3 of one of our Band's demo originals up and live. This is just a rough-mix (warts and all) of our song 'Superfly'. Please have a listen and tell me what you like and don't like about the cut, and if you really have the patience, I'm going to load the mastered final mix later on down the road, and ask for your comments on the (hopefully) improved version of the recording...

 

http://www.IndieLaunch.com/mojo/

 

The recording was tracked and rough-mixed by another member of these forums who goes by the handle...'Bonedog' (a.k.a. Scott, our guitarist), on his Yamaha AW4416.

 

Thanks in advance for your input.

[MattC]

Well EdenDude, I previewed Superfly in lo-fi mode (as my dialup is slow as, well, you get the idea). It was some funky badass sh*t, as promised. I could really dig it. I'm patiently waiting for the download so I can get a better idea of the mix, but I could see myself going to a show.

 

If you ever play a show in Windsor, Ontario, or Detroit, drop me a line...

[Lee Flier]

Hi Edendude! Hey, Superfly sounds kewl! I could actually stand to hear quite a bit more of the bass & kick drum. Oh yeah, gotta love that low end baby!

 

Glad you're digging the AW4416, sounds like you got some very good results!

[Tom Capasso]

I'm with Lee - bring up the bottom!!

 

Sounds nice and funky !! I love a well-placed slide

 

Tom

[cornbread_medhotmail.com]

Oh yeah! Getting 2.25 kb/sec! Love that dialup! I'll let you know in a few weeks as soon as it finishes downloading!

[cornbread_medhotmail.com]

Sounds good. I didn't know Canadians could have the blues.

[Edendude]

Hey!

 

Thanks for the feedback guys...

 

The bass has been pushed up a few dB on the final mix, and a touch more compression added to tighten it up and make it sit more solidly in the mix. There has alaso been a third guitar track added to fatten things up a bit, and the vox have been compressed and the appropriate ambience added.

 

And I have to say I am definitely impressed with 'Bonedog's' skills and his Yamaha AW4416. I'd recommend it to any band trying to get serious about demos and even an Indie release or two.

 

And yep, Canadians do get the blues...usually when the beer runs out.

 

[KikkyMonk]

HELL YEAH!!!

 

Im listening to the song you posted right now... its badass

 

sounds really good

 

more low end... (hehe)

 

Dave

[RobT]

I listend and liked it very much. Pay no attention to the fathead over in SSS. I think the old skool vibe kicks.

 

Hope the recording session goes well.

[randy clay]

Keep up the good work, that sounded great...

 

Still waiting for the bass & drum breakdown

[JLsound]

Edendude:

 

Good tune. Good vibe. Although, I think the guitar volume needs to come up during the breaks. It seems to be dropping volume. Otherwise, good music, and I like the kickin Bass riffs.