Guitarist Ego

[g.]

Ah, the wonders of private email : }  I just wrote one to fantasticsound, and he then replied back. And it seems that two passionate individuals are not so different at all -- in ideals or goals.

 

This has been an interesting topic, and I bet I'll be taking it with me in heart and mind the next few times I mix my band or someone else's.

 

Cool, y'all!

[The Fonz]

this topic is rapidly becoming old hat, but i feel i must once again put in my two cents (bringing this posts total up to about a dime).

 

as far as the monitor mix making a difference in wether or not someone turns down, lets think about this logically. what does one need to make an informed decision on wether to alter your amps volume? you need to know what is being heard by the crowd. this cannot be achieved by a monitor mix. in my 9 years of live sound with everyone from public enemy at an outdoor festival in buffalo to wraubs band at a tiny club on the L.E.S. (i realize we're not talking the about pakistan here, but hey, it counts for something) i have never witnessed or personally caused an exact replica of the room mix into the monitors. this is why there is a seperate monitor mix in every venue.

 

sure the musician better make the qualitative assessment of how he sounds if hears himself through the monitor in front of him. but how does this help him decide if he's too loud/quiet? he can tweak his tone, but that's about it.

 

then there's the issue of how the sound carries. bass or guitars are going to carry differently to different parts of the room. how will a monitor help a musician make that adjustment when it's much more low powered than the p.a. and two feet away?

 

sure, hearing yourself in a monitor can help. you know how you sound and can perform better. but i fail to see how you can make a judgement on how loud you are or need to be from what a monitor is giving you. just knowing that the monitor in front of me is a different mix than the rest of the house, let alone that i can't factor in what's coming off the stage from my position on it, would give me pause to alter my levels without the sound guy asking me to.

[ernest828]

OK, no ones gonna like this answer but all of our egos are to blame. We all want our part to be loudest and clearly heard. Not gonna happen.

 

Best thing to do is get a sound man that is moderate. I`m not talking about the guitarists brother pushing buttons here. This way you worry about playing and the soundman worries about dbs. If he knows better, he`ll turn down before turning up.

 

Long live the fader.

 

Peace,

Ernest

[MattC]

Wickerman's got the right idea. Bass guitars are supposed to take the bass frequencies. For rock, you could cut everything above 1.6kHz and crank everything else. Nothing else should enter that freq. range except the bass drum (relatively speaking, of course).

 

I remember those days of band-mate egoes. Wait, that was just last night! Only rarely do people grow out of their egoes. Those that do are the ones to stick with because they are in it for the music and not for personal satisfaction.

[fantasticsound]

My last word on the subject. As Greenboy said, we're good.

 

Bastid E, you seem to be confused. 99% of the time, a musician onstage shouldn't even be thinking of whether he's loud enough in the house. That's my job as mixer.

 

It doesn't matter whether I have direct control through a mic on the amp or whether I'm telling them how much to turn up/down to match an un miked amp with vox, etc. in the PA. Why have a PA and a skilled mixer if you, as musician, are going to attempt to dictate the house mix from a position where you can't possibly know how it sounds to the audience??

 

It's a mixer's job to mix. If you let musicians dictate the stage level when it interferes with other musicians and/or the house, you're destined to be a very unhappy mixer, not to mention you'll end up with a mix that's way too loud. This happens everyday, but that doesn't make it a good sounding mix.

 

That's not to say I should decide the mix as I see fit. It's their music. But I'll be damned if I'm gonna tell them it sounds great when they're making my job impossible.

 

Say whatever you wish, this is my last comment on the subject.

[Mile]

With my trusty 60 W Flextone II I'll play anything: from small clubs to large venues. We always try to keep stage volume low. I'm not comfortable with playing with earplugs. I want to be able to hear all of us. My stage volume is way low (2) and I always try to get guitar in the monitors. We demand monitors with at least 3 "branches". If I can't hear myself or others I'm not in a good mood. And if I'm not in a good mood and if it's not making me happy, what's the point of playing?!

[NickT]

On the amp front can I suggest SWR, the Workingman's stuff is great, in fact all of it is great. It ain't for nothing the company is called SWR 'cos the Sh*t Works Right.

 

Guitars need alot less power to make the same amount of volume. The low frequencies present in bass sounds really need loads of power to make them sound good and project properly. You're just gonna have to get used to having bigger than your guitar players. Mine have 100 watt 2x12 combo's and one of them also a Peavey bandit (1x12) and the other has a Laney 1x12. They are always way loud. Just one of those things.

 

Guitar players are always too loud. Getting them to bring down the onstage volume is a battle. Keep trying. Try getting your amp a bit closer to your ears (i.e. stick it on a table or some beer crates.) Buy a 4x10, lose the 1x15 to me they just sound flabby on their own.

 

Last resort, (don't try this during the gig though) if he too loud, STOP PLAYING. If he doesn't notice then roast him, he well make himself and you deaf very quickly. If he does notice say "Man you're so loud I didn't think you'd notice." Then he might get the message. (Can I suggest that you accidentally drop his distortion pedal under a bus.)

[The Thrashole]

MAybe it's a regional thing but I have seen the exact same issue with bass players pretty often.I play guitar, bass and drums so I get to have three times the ego but my stage volume is never excessive. I have had to fight off a SVT too many times to say it is just a guitar problem. IT is all about communication and playing at a volume that is best for the band. any instrument that is too loud( piccolo snares?) will cause problems.I also am a firm believer that it is not the jobof FOH to fix the stage blend.Sound reinforcement should take the sound on stage and make it louder.If the band doesn't blend onstage you are not really listening to the talent of the band but the talent of the guy behind the board.

[JazzV]

This may be heresy, but why do musicians not do the obvious and ask the soundman about levels, especially those musicians with on-stage amps? If the soundman has no control over an amp's volume, then he either has to bring everything up or down to restore proper balance, and that's not really a great solution. If the guitarist won't even ask the question, then he's not thinking about the group sound. After all, it doesn't sound the same onstage as it does down front, so why not let the guy who can hear it properly do his job and mix the sound? That also goes for the vocalists who want to mix themselves even higher when they're already overpowering the music.

[g.]

It's been said in this thread before that not all soundmen give a **** -- and also that they often have little idea of what the stage sound is, which was the first concern mentioned in the thread. In addition, in this sub-forum and the guitar one as well, some replies didn't seem to acknowledge that individual amplifiers may be too loud for the SR guy to control the FOH level of.

 

If there is a good sound person he will attempt to get that person to turn down, and if psychologically an improbability, enlist band members' help in that area.

 

It still comes down to band members responsibility to communicate well with each other in smaller to medium venues and on smaller stages, to have stage sound that works, and where no instrument over-runs the FOH mix capabilities.