Guitarist Ego

[Metal_Boy16]

I just had a gig with some friends of mine at a school dance. We played 10 songs, mostly punk and that Blink-182 crap. We played 5 songs then took a break. I asked the my bandmates if they could hear my bass while we played. They said "Yeh, pretty well". I asked some friends out on the floor, they said they couldn't hear me at all. So I went to the guitarist and asked him to turn it down, or at least turn down the gain on his distortion pedal (talk about annoying high-pitched buzz!). He wouldn't move a single knob in his gear! His amp was a 50 watt 10 inch Fender. My amp is a 300 watt 15 inch and horn. We both had our gains and volumes at 5. Why was he so overpowering to my sound? Was it his little distortion pedal with its high-pitched squeel?

[Jay J.]

I think that it was mainly the distortion and a 50 watt guitar amp can put out a lot of noise. I don't know if you are at a stage where you could buy some new gear but I would recomend some 10" speakers to help you cut through the guitar. I have found that I get overpowered real easily when I am using only a 15" a 2X10 or even better a 4X10 would add a lot of punch to your sound.

[Wickerman]

Man, try my angle, crank the lows. It works best with active tone control but you can get by otherwise. Make some bones rattle, they'll hear ya.

[Zack]

I concur with the first two opinions. Help yourself out, and crank the lows, and see if you can't get some 10 cabinets. You didn't say if YOU were at maximum volume, however. While this isn't an invitation to crank your system to 11 (Spinal Tap 4ever ), you should amplify as neccessary live.

[Metal_Boy16]

Would a SWR Professional series 4x10 and their SM-500 or SM-900 cut through???

[Wickerman]

Originally posted by Metal_Boy13:

Would a SWR Professional series 4x10 and their SM-500 or SM-900 cut through???

Ahhhhhaha! Oh yes my child. That'd more than do it...

[Chad Thorne]

I used to play in a blues band with a guitarist who just cranked it all the time. You know - "I can't get my TONE at lower levels!". Such B.S. The band never got asked back anywhere because we could clear a room in one set. People opted for retaining their hearing...

 

Last gig we ever played, he must have been feeling sad or bittersweet or something because he didn't play too loud. We killed. People stayed all evening, danced, bought drinks, applauded the band. I said, "NOW do you understand why I tell you to turn the f**k DOWN?" I made up my mind then that if I had a choice I would never again play with a freakin' guitar player who refused to play at an appropriate level.

 

Just my $00.02, Metal_Boy 13. If this guy doesn't want to cooperate you could maybe find somebody who will. IMO the "bigger amp" approach never works. Everybody just gets louder and louder til you're leaving gigs with ringing in your ears...

[ibescotty]

I recently played in with a guy who wouldn't turn down. I didn't have my gear and we were just fooling. I plugged into the PA temporarily. This guy had is Marshalls up so loud I couldn't here a thing I was playing. He wouldn't turn down either. Needless to say he made the whole musical or non-musical experience sour. I hate when that happens!!!

 

If the guy won't listen to you or a whole auditorium full of people then it looks like it might be time to move on.

[chardin]

Get someone to make a recording of the show. Have some fans listen to it. Have your sound guy listen to it. Have the band listen to it at the next rehearsal. If 3 out of 5 people can't hear the bass, either turn up the bass or turn down the guitar. Just remember to be objective. Since you play bass, you listen more closely to the bass. Find out what the singer says (other than "I can't hear the vocals!").

[Tom Capasso]

First things first - I'm not questioning your friend on the floor, but try to get someone with a musical background that isn't friends with anyone in particular (except you) to determine what is needed. Not everyone "hears" the bass like we (or a soundman) might. Be sure of what you need. We played a bar gig, and I didn't find out until it was over that I could have been louder (damn !!). For our next gig I'll make sure I get that info after a few songs...

 

I agree with Chad that "amp wars" don't work. If the whole band is balanced properly and you can't keep up, then it's time to get bigger equipment.

 

Assuming the g****r player needs to turn down, don't gang up on him/her. Explain carefully that the balance in the audience (not on stage) isn't proper, and it's for the band. If the individual has an overblown ego, you need to try to bring them "on to the team". It's a band, not a g****r solo. That all takes tact and diplomacy, and frankly, we're not always good at that. My g****r player from 25 years ago and I were chatting the other night, and he was "reminicing" about times I went ballistic (of course such things never happened ).

 

I've also seen players that just didn't get it. Spend time trying to bring them along, but you may reach a point where it's time to find someone else.

 

Tom

[Carl1266]

I don't think new gear would solve your problem. 300 Watts should indeed be enough. Maybe work a little bit on your sound and eq'ing.

Second, the sound on the stage and on the floor for the audience are somtimes totally different. I had gigs where I was loud as hell on stage and couldn't be heard on the floor and vice versa. It always helps to have someone in the audience who is not leaning towards any instrument.

[Wickerman]

Originally posted by Carl1266:

It always helps to have someone in the audience who is not leaning towards any instrument.

I'm the "sound tech" for two bands right now. Most venues have PAs and mic guitars but band members always argue and you can't hear what it's like in the room and play at the same time so I just help out two friend's bands in that way... Just thought I'd share.

[BagBass]

Bass players shouldn't try to compete with guitar volume. Use bass to get underneath the guitar so you can here yourself but at a different frequency. Bass is bass and you should make a rumble and something you feel. Just use lower frequencies and you will cut through and don't compete with guitar frequencies.

[ERIC31]

I feel for you guy. My last band had joe guitar player who would just crank and overpower everything else. What a d**k! What is it with guitar players anyway? There seem to be few that know the words restraint and taste. If you want people to dance f**k the guitars! WE all know that bass and drums are what gets the feet moving, not the wank off guitar player! Anyway, enough of my venting....

 

I don't know if you play fingerstyle or with a pick. Picks cut through better with distorted guitars. Also maybe a little more midrange or distortion might help.

 

Good luck.

[Bill C from Nashvegas]

Years ago the rhythym guitarist (who set up next to me) ran a full stack, 100 watts through two 4x12's. One night everybody kept yelling at me to "turn down your bass!" I kept turning it down, and down, until finally I turned my amp off. They were still telling me to turn down! At that point I got totally pissed off, because the rhythym player's stack was actually the culprit...He finally turned down, and I moved over to the other side of the drums next to the lead player.

 

Getting into amp wars sucks. But many guitar players don't realize that in a club setting, the bass needs to pound out hard, while the guitar can be much less powerful and still be heard.

[Wickerman]

Well, going from singer, to bass to guitar, now when I play lead, I alway keep it down. The bass HAS to be heard. My problem is always drummers. I still love my bass though. I hate when I have to put it down and bring a guitar...

[Curious_G]

You have to work it out as a band, play as a team. If you start a volume war the vocals will get buried in no time. Think blend and balance. Move amps around 'til everyone can hear each other and themselves well. Have the guitar try and tip his amp back like a wedge aimed at his head. If you can't get past this the resentment and animosity will grow and then break-up, and back to the starting point. The band has to act in it's own best interest and that means setting aside individual interests.

[g.]

Just coming from another gig that illustrated how the ear works like the eye when the amount of light is increased past a useful threshold -- yeah, the iris just closes further anyway, so where's the true gain?

 

I have a pretty powerful rig for 'clubbing. So I am not easily drowned out. But I hate it when the others want too much drums in the PA and when the guitarist is eating the tonal spectrum. The [vocal] monitors can be optimally loud and clear, but they get masked enough to lose sonic detail. And the bass tone gets bludgeoned -- again, loss of detail.

 

When things are dialed in right it will seem just as loud on stage and off, but the clarity will be so much better. It's just a case of filling the room correctly instead of trying to pour more in than it can really hold.

 

...But it seems like the flip side of the ego coin is insecurity, and some try to compensate for whatever fears they may have by looking for numbers past the mystical "eleven".

 

<-- greenboy ---<<<<   and this is coming from a guy who likes it to rock out!

[Dan South]

Y'know, I'm wondering whether there needs to be a revolution in the design of amps for smaller clubs. The stage is never very big, so the amp can't be very far behind you. Amps don't sound very loud when you stand close to them unless they're at ear level (rarely the case). However, they ARE at ear level (and EXTREMELY loud) from the patrons' point of view.

 

To make matters worse, your focused amp sound can't compete with the omnidirectional sound of the drummer. You have to play WAY too loud to make it seem like you're blending with the drum kit. But all the audience hears is LOUD AMPS SEARING THEIR EARS.

 

A brilliant idea would be an amp system that seems louder on stage than it does out front. This would even work for larger venues where the PA is primarily responsible for delivering the sound to the audience. It would eliminate amp bleed through that makes the amps sound to loud to the people near the stage.

 

I agree that in an amp war, like in most wars, the innocents (i.e., the non-musicians) suffer the most. I walk out of any club where volume is not strictly controlled.

[freddynl]

mm... how about some decent floor monitors!

I'm really surprised this was not mentionned in the comments..

[g.]

freddynl: mm... how about some decent floor monitors! I'm really surprised this was not mentionned in the comments..

...Maybe because it has little bearing on the subject?

[The Fonz]

monitors are for the folks ON stage. i'm assuming that out unhappy friend is having no trouble hearing the guitars, and if he stands in the right spot he'll have no trouble hearing himself or the drums.

 

as for guitar players, i have more than my share of stories. i will relate this one (as i have in the past, it being one of the worst performance nightmares of my performing career):

 

i was in a band called sterile with a guitar player named max brennan (names remain to prosecute the guilty). this guy was a what sociologists refer to clinically as a giant asshole. he had 4 piezo speakers installed into a 1x15 that he ran on a 200w fender bassman. also in his rig was a 4x12 powered by a 100w hiwatt. all of this was driving his travis bean with an ever changing array of pedals as he chased his "tone." what he never realized was that he couldn't find it because he didn't know his ass from his elbow.

 

aaaanyway, on to the point. our first performance after he got these 3" piezo attrocities installed was at a tiny club. not realizing that you can't here these things at all if you're within 6 feet he stood directly in front of his rig and tried to set his tone. no sound from 2 of the piezos? turn them up to max. still nothing? turn all 4 on and crank them (he had an individual level control installed on these). we started playing and immediately everyone in the place ran to the bar to buy earplugs. when the bar ran out of them, those without left. i had 400w of amp gained out and overdriving. all i could do was crank the low end and hoped there would be a few snakes in the crowd who could figure out what i was playing. he was so loud i couldn't hear anything but him, not even myself or the drums. after everyone complained (includung the sound guy who'd heard us before) he asked his sycophantic friend casey if he was too loud. casey's reply was something along the lines of "no max, you can never be too loud. even your flatulence is pure sonic genius." max figured all was right. the drummer and i told him after the show that if he ever did that again, it wouldn't just be the audience leaving in the middle of the first song.

[freddynl]

Originally posted by greenboy:

freddynl: mm... how about some decent floor monitors! I'm really surprised this was not mentionned in the comments..

...Maybe because it has little bearing on the subject?

It has everything to do with the subject!

If you don't hear yourselve and because of that , there's a bad volume balance overall (ever heard of a soundcheque!) monitors usually make the difference. (In my own experience that is, which is only 15 years gigging 5 days a week..

[g.]

re-read the original post.

[JuR]

What frequencies should A good guitar player keep himself restricted too then?

no 80 and 150 hz?

[fantasticsound]

Greenboy, I believe the post regarding monitors is insinuating that the guitar player needs a better monitor mix, so he will turn down the guitar amp. As has been mentioned, he may be cranking the amp at the patrons' ears while his are several feet above and off axis. Bad for the audience, "sounds great," to the guitar player.

 

Another probable cause of the unbalanced sound in the audience is... physics! Are those who you asked to gauge the sound in the audience your bestest buddies, who want to be up close and personal with you and the entire band? Bass needs space to build from the amp. You may be kicking quite well in much of the club while the front seats are literally being passed by with bass. Be sure someone is checking several locations within a bar, especially a small venue. Multiple 10" speakers combat this pretty well because they support a wider area of air compression from close up. (Dispersion) This will give you more even response, but it won't solve the problem entirely.

 

It is also good advice to check how much overlap the guitarist's timbre has with yours. If he's pushing the amount of bass that makes most of us guitarists happy when rehearsing alone, then he's totally running over you in a gig situation. You might be surprised how bad some great recorded guitar tones sound when solo'd up. That's because they need to mesh properly with the rest of the mix. Not sound great on their own. Two separate concepts. The distortion exacerbates this problem, because it spreads the guitar tone more evenly across a wider range of frequencies, taking up valuable sonic space for your bass and other instruments. Your guitarist may be clueless that this fact extends onstage, as well.

 

Try adding some low bass and support your harmonics around 700Hz with EQ, if you like a more trebly, biting, bass timbre with earthshaking bottom. Otherwise, have someone independent and knowledgable give your band advice on overall sound. Pay for this advice! Most band members will make excuses if you're not getting professional advice. (Some will live in denial even with a skilled producer or soundman's advice. If this is the case, turn tail and run from the band after explaining to them you're finding some professionals to gig with. )

 

Good luck!

 

I hope you're interested if I have a clue in this regard? I've been a guitarist for 26 years, a sound engineer for the past dozen. And yes, I was guilty as charged for playing amp wars with other band members in my youth. Bad situation. Hopefully this guy will move beyond ego and/or ignorance.

[Lee Flier]

Originally posted by Dan South:

Y'know, I'm wondering whether there needs to be a revolution in the design of amps for smaller clubs. The stage is never very big, so the amp can't be very far behind you. Amps don't sound very loud when you stand close to them unless they're at ear level (rarely the case). However, they ARE at ear level (and EXTREMELY loud) from the patrons' point of view.

 

To make matters worse, your focused amp sound can't compete with the omnidirectional sound of the drummer. You have to play WAY too loud to make it seem like you're blending with the drum kit. But all the audience hears is LOUD AMPS SEARING THEIR EARS.

[a guitar player chiming in here]

 

I agree Dan, it's a problem. What lots of guitarists do is tip the amp up at an angle so it's blaring into their own ears and not the audience's. For me, that doesn't work either, because then all I can hear is me and I can't hear the bass. And believe it or not, I'm a guitar player who actually likes to listen to the people I'm playing with and play off them.

 

I don't know if redesigning amps will work either because some guitar players (like myself) are always going to prefer to play with vintage or vintage style amps. Any kind of redesign is going to change the character of the sound which a lot of guitarists aren't going to go for.

 

BUT... this does give me an idea which maybe I'll try: perhaps I could build a small (maybe 8 inch) wedge shaped speaker cabinet, hook it into the amp's external speaker jack, and use it like a personal monitor pointed up in my face. This would serve two purposes: 1) I'd hopefully be able to hear myself more like the audience does without blasting my own ears out, and 2) the extra speaker would draw some of the power from the amp, which means I might be able to get a good tone at a lower volume.

 

I don't think this approach would do much good for somebody who brings a full Marshall stack to a small club , but it might be good for people like me who aren't TRYING to blast at metal volume and use smaller 40-50 watt combos.

 

I'll float this idea over on the guitar forum too and I'll let y'all know how it works for me.

 

--Lee

[g.]

Well, fantasticsound,

 

Could be wrong but by the description, I was seeing a situation where maybe monitors are low budget if even present, and probably not enough wattage around (or mics, even) to do anything but vocals in a single monitor mix. And one must admit that putting gutar in the monitors would put even more guitar wash on stage, which might not make the bassist's (and vocalists') local situation any easier either.

 

This does raise an interesting point that might not have been mentioned yet: I always get the guitarist to get their combos up on at least a tilt-back stand or their cab elevated. I shoot for ear level if the staging makes that realistic, and if successfully sly, get it very close to their main stage position so they get sonic wash they really like to hear. Then I make sure the bass is delivering enough frequencies that don't get masked by theirs so that they can hear it too. In the case of distortion gonzos, they then feel they got their tone awesomely screamin' well before it usally over-runs the rest of the band either on stage (knock on wood) and in the house, and they also feel supported in their role as ghodz ; }

 

I think guys that have experience as working sound men sometimes forget what it's like to be in a band in situations where not-so-good soundmen are present or non-existant even. As a ferinstance, practically every club in Seattle had a resident SR setup. But now, in Montana, it's not so often the case. Stages are often small, and sound run from the stage with a minimum of equipment. But if you've done sound before, you can usually translate a stage mix into a house mix with modest gear and get decent or better results. Of course it can take a tad more "band re-education" to do this consistently ; }

 

...Ironically, I remarked yesterday about not such a good mix situation at the gig on Friday night. But a few small adjustments including a hint or two (psychology dictates what is effective here!), and last night the sound was articulate, loud and pleasing in both the club and on stage. This cost nothing in dollars, to go from mush to maximum rock n' roll, and we had three offers for private parties and re-bookings. More importantly, we all loved what we were doing and played ever so much consistently. We had big fun.

 

Admittedly, we have pretty good gear for this size of gig, but the same principles (placement leading toward a good stage mix compromise that each member feels decent about) work anywhere.

 

 

 

<-- greenboy ---<<<<    there's probably much more either of us could say, but I've never been good at mixing sound from hundreds or thousands of miles away

 

 

 

[g.]

Lee,

 

It's great to see a cross-discipline mediator here! Maybe you can solve the age-old problem between electric players ; }  And you like drummers too! That's so cool!

 

What I've found works is (depending on SR, staging and club size, of course), is not to worry so much about whether a guitar cab or bass cab is pointing at directly at the dance floor, but that it has good dispersion on stage. I swear some of the players I've seen believe their cab can only put out directly on axis and about 3 degrees to either side, and that nobody will hear them past the stage if they don't go point it directly at the center of the dance floor...

 

But really, by the time the sound has bounced off the stage walls and ceiling a few times, it's going evrywhere. There's enough latitude to do placement that makes a decent stage mix and a club mix that works too -- Especially as concerns guitar.

 

What I try to do with the tilted-stand scenario you mentioned is to get it close, and offside just enough that the guitarist can get a desent amount of everybody else in at least one ear, and can even move slightly to change this. A few steps back from the mic and it can go from a typical singer's mix to a guitar-heavy mix if desired, and get the feedback/sustain thing happening for a solo.

 

As I've worked these smaller clubs I've gained a bigger appreciation for what placement can do.

 

 

<-- greenboy ---<<<<    and a large hatred for club owners with irregularly-shaped postage stamps of stages ; }

[freddynl]

Originally posted by greenboy:

Well, fantasticsound,

 

Could be wrong but by the description, I was seeing a situation where maybe monitors are low budget if even present, and probably not enough wattage around (or mics, even) to do anything but vocals in a single monitor mix. And one must admit that putting gutar in the monitors would put even more guitar wash on stage, which might not make the bassist's (and vocalists') local situation any easier either.

 

 

 

Maybe I should have mentionned I meant the guitarist!..anyway the way I did use monitors in the past is not how you described it.

 

We worked with two mixboards.

One for the pa system to the audience.

One sub-system for stage.

 

On soundcheque the balance for the audience was

made untill it was ok, while secondly the musicians who did not hear themselves clear, got

more volume on their own instrument thru the floormonitor (which was pointed to the place where the musician was.)

The soundcheque by the way was made again by someone trusted and knew how we wanted the sound, when the place was filled up with people, as all the acoustics of the places change a lot when it's filled up!

 

In small places we did not use monitors (no room)

and used the angle position's ..

And ofcourse tried to keep the volume down a bit.

This was another style of music though so not much low tones were used on the guitars.

 

About the 50 watt fender of the guitarist!

I use fender tube amps since I was 16 which is now 35 years ago., and I can tell you they are LOUD!