Where's that damn drummer?

[Foot]

Hi,

 

I'm pretty new to posting here though I've been reading for a while. I was just wondering if anyone here has any experience in a drummerless situation. I've tried to make a bass and acoustic guitar thing work for a while but it always sounds like its missing the propulsion that drums provide so well. If anyone has any tips or maybe some interesting experiences to share I'd be much obliged.

[Flash Bazbo]

I'm afraid there's no substitute for a good drummer. (Of course, I was a drummer for 28 years -- so I might be a little prejudiced here.) Be good to your drummer. Treat him or her with respect, and you'll have good drummers beating down your door for a chance to play.

 

In the meantime . . . ? Some people use drum machines, but would you use a BASS machine? (I didn't think so.)

[koosh]

My first band had no drummer. I ended up doing kinda the percussive thing on bass. Usually, i would sorta smack the strings with my right hand on beats two and four(this eventually became a bad habit). Check out bluegrass...those fellas don't have drummers and there is always some rythymic pulse going from the constant one and three of the bass, the mandolin strums, or even the soloist playing mainly 16th note phrasing. I've even played jazz in a solo or duet situation(no drummer) The bass had to be swinging...hard. I think Larry Graham's first gig was without a drummer and he incorporated the whole slap thing. Now it's your turn to be creative...

[jeremy c]

I play a lot of gigs without a drummer. They are usually jazz trios--guitar, bass, and flute. If your playing is really solid you shouldn't need a drummer.

 

Sometimes I actually prefer it without a drummer. The time and the feel are where I say it is, the volume level is really low and I am able to interact wonderfully with the other instruments.

 

It is better to just play what you usually would and not try to fill up the music trying to play the missing drum parts. It's better for the guitarists too, if they play regular parts and don't try to play bass and snare patterns with their strums.

 

I don't think anyone listening will really miss the drums if the music sounds good.

 

"We don't need no drummer to play that funky beat!"

[PeteB]

I work most of the time in a guitar/bass duo that performs everything from Beatles to U2 to Creed to LZ, and without a drum machine either. We're often told that drums aren't missed, and it's a drawing factor to our duo.

 

I play a six string, and I EQ my bass and rig with heavy mids such that I get almost a kick drum punch with each note. My guitar player uses a Boomerang to put down a rhythm chord track to fill out solos, and I do a lot of chord work too, and I can keep the groove going underneath chords by thumbing and chording. I also play drums, so I can bring a drummer's "head" into my bass playing.

 

It's a challenge, and it's also a lot of fun! Admittedly, it was born of necessity to make the lower paying gigs profitiable, and to get us in to smaller clubs. But seriously, it's become a lot of fun for me to see what we can pull off. Can you imaging LZ without Bonham? We do Dancin' Days as a duo and they love it!

[Zack]

What an interesting topic! While many jazz-influenced trios and other groups play drummrless, many bands couldn't function without the drummer. He is, after all, 1/2 the rhythem section, albeit the 2nd most important. An interesting point to be made is for Larry Graham, forerunner of slap-bass. His family band couldn't afford to keep their drummer, so Larry started playing his bass like a drummer, with thumps (thumbs) for the bass drum on beats 1 & 3, and pops on 2 & 4 for the snare. Slap-bass is born. So, I guess it can go either way. The important thing is to make it groove and work, drummer or not.

[chardin]

The drummer in our praise-and-worship band is taking a break for a few months. My wife is constantly telling me how much she misses the drums.

 

I think it depends on what you are accustomed to hearing. If you have heard a song a hundred times with drums and then hear it for the first time without them, sure you'll miss them. After a while you might not.

 

I agree nothing can replace a good drummer. On the other hand, the Nat "King" Cole trio (piano, bass, guitar) never had drums and most people don't miss them. Man, that group could swing.

[Lee Flier]

Originally posted by FlashBazbo:

I'm afraid there's no substitute for a good drummer. (Of course, I was a drummer for 28 years -- so I might be a little prejudiced here.) Be good to your drummer. Treat him or her with respect, and you'll have good drummers beating down your door for a chance to play.

 

In the meantime . . . ? Some people use drum machines, but would you use a BASS machine? (I didn't think so.)

AMEN!!!

 

I totally agree there is NO substitute for a good drummer and there would be more of them around if people realized that and respected drummers. Like you say, I've always had good ones around because I appreciate them and have always demonstrated my commitment to play with a great drummer at any cost. Even when I lived in apartments and had nothing to record on but a Teac reel-to-reel, rather than use a drum machine I had a drummer who would come over and improvise drum parts on hand percussion, cardboard boxes and saran wrap. If the drummer is good they can lend a great groove to anything using just about anything.

 

Is there some particular reason why you don't have a drummer? I mean if you miss the energy that drums provide (and I sure don't blame you there, I couldn't live without it!), why not look for a drummer? Maybe the types of gigs you are doing don't seem appropriate for it? You might be surprised. My band does coffeehouse type acoustic gigs sometimes, and our drummer plays standing up with just a kick, snare and cymbal, usually with brushes. He's so good that he makes it sound like a full drum set only at lower volume. A great drummer can get an incredible array of nuances from a small setup like that.

 

--Lee

[Foot]

Hey thanks for the replies everyone. Pete B, I'm gonna try that heavy mid thing. I've been using a pretty scooped sound and that might be a chunk o' the problem.

 

Originally posted by Lee Flier:

Is there some particular reason why you don't have a drummer? I mean if you miss the energy that drums provide (and I sure don't blame you there, I couldn't live without it!), why not look for a drummer? Maybe the types of gigs you are doing don't seem appropriate for it? You might be surprised. My band does coffeehouse type acoustic gigs sometimes, and our drummer plays standing up with just a kick, snare and cymbal, usually with brushes. He's so good that he makes it sound like a full drum set only at lower volume. A great drummer can get an incredible array of nuances from a small setup like that.

 

--Lee

I guess I should have made myself a little clearer. The lack of drummer is a choice. I already play in a fairly typical rock band (vox, guitar, bass, drums) which is somewhere between The Police and T. Rex. Lately I've grown tired of that formula and just wanted to see if i could stretch out in an unfamiliar setting. But I have to admit the kick, snare, cymbal minimalist thing sounds real appealling though. Hmmm.....

[dcr]

There's no rule that says you've got to have a drummer (or any other particular piece). It depends on what you're going for, & experimentation here is a good thing. E.g. recently I played with a 3-piece--acoustic guitar & vocals, backing vocals, & fretless bass--& was very happy with the sort of sound & vibe/mood we were able to create. I didn't really focus on trying to fill in for the drum part, but on blending in with the guitar & vocals. The songs we chose--carefully--helped in this respect; we did quieter, ballad-y songs rather than "rockers" (one was a ballad-y reinterpretation of a rocker, though). Good experience; I'd love to repeat it.

 

I think Roger Waters was dead on when he said that at the end of the day the only question is whether the music moves you--there's nothing else.

[davebrownbass]

Originally posted by dcr:

There's no rule that says you've got to have a drummer (or any other particular piece). It depends on what you're going for, & experimentation here is a good thing.

 

I think Roger Waters was dead on when he said that at the end of the day the only question is whether the music moves you--there's nothing else.

Amen. And I think I'm gonna check the drum page to see if they have a "Where's the damn bass player?" thread.

 

Of course, the discussion there would probably refer to how "out to lunch" we all are.

 

I've done with or without a drummer, with all kinds of music. I just gotta say that drums are FUN! as long as the drummer can play. On the other hand, they can be a real drag to synch with if the guy is lousy. And people always look at the bass player when the feel messes up.

[Mike H.]

Where's that damn drummer?

 

He's stuck in the car because the bass player locked his keys in it!

 

I live in a community where there is an extreme lack of drummers. Pardon the expression, but the local drummers "whore themselves" out to pretty much every band in need. Usually no less than 2 bands per drummer. Our drummer just finished college and moved back to California, leaving us with the challenge to find another. And yes, we shared our drummer with another band as well.

 

As for going without a drummer, we can do the acoustic guitars and electric bass thing. I am fortunate to have a great vocalist/rhythm player, and a good lead player in our band. The lead player and myself can carry background vocals OK enough to fill the song out. The lack of a drummer doesn't really seem to be a problem at that point. I will occasionally try to play chord voicings to fill out "dead spots" in song where the body is lacking also.

[Lee Flier]

Originally posted by Foot:

I guess I should have made myself a little clearer. The lack of drummer is a choice. I already play in a fairly typical rock band (vox, guitar, bass, drums) which is somewhere between The Police and T. Rex. Lately I've grown tired of that formula and just wanted to see if i could stretch out in an unfamiliar setting. But I have to admit the kick, snare, cymbal minimalist thing sounds real appealling though. Hmmm.....

Ah... yeah it does sound like you're still missing the drums being there, even though you want to do something different. I agree with everybody who says there's no rule that says you have to have a drummer, and it all boils down to what moves you. For me, what moves me is drums. I don't really enjoy playing without them, so that's where my perspective is coming from.

 

But yeah, the minimalist thing is great. A lot of drummers just can't hang that transition between the "typical rock" setup and the acoustic thing, so most people doing acoustic acts either don't have a drummer at all or they get a hand percussionist, which isn't a bad idea either. But we love the variety of gigs we can get because of the fact that our drummer can do the minimalist thing. He's definitely the best of all worlds - a rock drummer who also has a traditional jazz background (and all the subtlety and stick control that goes along with that). What you want to do is go to New Orleans and kidnap a drummer, that's the petrie dish for genetically engineered superdrummers.

 

--Lee

[bspangleyahoo.com]

There is no substitute for a GOOD drummer--true, true. However, gigs with no drummer are much more enjoyable than gigs with bad drummers!!

[Christopher]

If you cannot afford a drummer, one will be assigned to you at government expense.

 

Seriously, either you or your guitarist (or both of you) should learn some rudimentary drums just to tide you through drummerless patches. Guitar + Drums or Bass + Drums sounds better than Guitar + Bass.

[dcr]

"Guitar + Drums or Bass + Drums sounds better than Guitar + Bass"

 

I guess I stand corrected; there is a rule, after all.

 

Never mind.

 

[ibescotty]

Heck our guitar players are going to just eliminate the rythm section all together for a few songs. Me and the drummer can hang with the croud and take a breather I guess.

[Bob Keelan]

The Subdudes are an excellent example of a band that uses alternate percussion.

[The Fonz]

y'know, this is more of an "in your head." either that or finding the right musicians to work with. i can work with anyone so long as i have a decent drummer and can suppress my laughter at their shitty arrangements. i certainly think stuff sounds better with some sort of percusion and often don't like working without it. i hate auditioning without it because the way i sound is influenced by the other muscians failings. if the guitar player can't find the beat, how are you going to sound good with him?

 

on the other hand i have certainly worked with people sans percussion that sounded great. i still recall fondly my days in two different bands where i could sit down with the guitar player to write/arrange and have it sound like a finished piece. there are also those moments in songs where there are no drums and it sounds fine. as a matter of fact those moments are there because they sound better without drums.

 

genre is also an issue. loud rock never sounds right without a drummer or at least some manner of percussion. the most fun i've ever had with percussion was playing bass with a performance artist who did beat box. THAT will test your ability to be funky.

[stevear]

For the last few years I've been playing in "unconventional" lineups with no drum set. I'm surprised no one has noted the obvious- human beings have been making music for thousands of years with whatever is at hand; there is no law regarding what instruments have to be included in an ensemble. What about a capella? what about hand clapping? We all have rythm inside us. A modern drum set is only one of many tools for expressing that rythm. Whenever you find yourself thinking "Where's the drummer? (or guitarist or vocalist or keyboardist...) you are in danger of locking yourself into a formula- the best and quickest way to stifle creativity. Don't want to be misunderstood- I've got nothing AGAINST drummers. Just want to make the point that in music there is no sacred lineup...

As some posters have already noted, Larry Graham invented slapping to give a percussive boost to club gigs he played with his pianist mother while a teenager.

Another point- the drummer is commonly perceived as setting the rythm- in my experience that's a responsibility that has always fallen to me (the bass player), since human rythm in most music is variable and linked to the song structure. I find myself in the position of "interpreter", communicating to the drummer the rythmic pattern underlying the song structure, and showing the rest of the band the link between the beat and the structure.

Finally- the basic sound level imposed by the presence of a drummer can be very restricting- in extreme (but all too common) cases everyone turns up the volume and subtlety and dynamics go out the window.

Bottom line- some styles/genres seem to DEMAND drums- but if you don't have a drummer available, turn adversity into opportunity. This is your chance to do something different- if you want to.

[davebrownbass]

Originally posted by BKeelan:

The Subdudes are an excellent example of a band that uses alternate percussion.

I first heard the Subdudes because Vic Wooten cited them as an example of an influence to the Flectones.

 

I got more into the Subdudes that the Flectones...I absolutely love the tambourine when used as a trap set.

 

I think they've broken up. I know they left New Orleans and went to Colorado and got into that scene.

 

What's going on with them?

[SteveC]

There is nothing like a good drummer, and nothing like a bad drummer.

 

Anyway, I play in a jazz trio of piano, bass and sax. We have a steady gig at a local restaurant where the owner doesn't want drums. They are too loud and get in the way of the atmosphere he wants to set. We are background music for the first couple of sets, and then kinda crank it up for the last set. At first I thought I'd miss a drummer, but I really don't.

 

I like the combo very much, as do the people who frequent the restaurant. We get compliments all the time. It's a different kind of sound and feel without drums, and its good practice for everyone.

[Bob Keelan]

Originally posted by davebrownbass:

Originally posted by BKeelan:

The Subdudes are an excellent example of a band that uses alternate percussion.

I first heard the Subdudes because Vic Wooten cited them as an example of an influence to the Flectones.

 

I got more into the Subdudes that the Flectones...I absolutely love the tambourine when used as a trap set.

 

I think they've broken up. I know they left New Orleans and went to Colorado and got into that scene.

 

What's going on with them?

Yeah, I think I heard that they broke up too Too bad, their stuff was pretty infectious.

 

bob