Publishing-selling song rights?

[Loufrance]

I have a question about songwriting, When you go to a publisher if your just starting out do you usually have to sell your rights to the song?

[D_dup3]

You can expect to pay fees for administration costs, etc., & maybe even share a percentage but never give up your rights---that's the very thing you're trying to protect &, should any song be successful, that's where your income will derive.

Anybody trying to strongarm you into doing this is a shark.

 

The only exception would be "works for hire", as when you compose something for an ad agency or other specific use.

[Eric VB]

There are two equal percentages for every song: one for the writer(s) and one for the publisher(s).

 

When a publisher asks for publishing rights, they're only after the publisher's percentage. You get to keep the writer's percentage. If you self-publish, you get to keep both.

 

If you co-write a song, you split just the writer's percentage. This does not affect the publisher's cut. Likewise, if you co-publish the song, you split just the publisher's percentage.

 

Just remember, if you want to self-publish and then co-publish with someone, you're going to have to help with the publishing work and/or put up some money for publishing. A publisher isn't going to split the percentage with you 50-50 and still do 100% of the publishing duties.

 

As d points out, you should never have to sign away your writer's percentage.

 

There are plenty of good books out there that explain this a little better. Try checking out your local library; I found plenty of good info there.

[Loufrance]

So what your saying is the publisher just has rights to collect a percentage of the money you make off the song, and I still own the original copyright to the song, After a certain amount of time do the publishers right's expire?

 

I ask this question because in the past i've seen instances where the publisher is suing someone for using a song, and instances where it seems like the publisher owns a song.

[D_dup3]

Originally posted by RicBassGuy:

[Point 1] There are two equal percentages for every song: one for the writer(s) and one for the publisher(s)..

 

When a publisher asks for publishing rights, they're only after the publisher's percentage. You get to keep the writer's percentage. If you self-publish, you get to keep both.

 

If you co-write a song, you split just the writer's percentage. This does not affect the publisher's cut. Likewise, if you co-publish the song, you split just the publisher's percentage.

 

[point 2]Just remember, if you want to self-publish and then co-publish with someone, you're going to have to help with the publishing work and/or put up some money for publishing. A publisher isn't going to split the percentage with you 50-50 and still do 100% of the publishing duties.

 

As d points out, you should never have to sign away your writer's percentage.

 

[Point 3]There are plenty of good books out there that explain this a little better. Try checking out your local library; I found plenty of good info there.

[1]I'm not sure that's true, insofar as "equal percentage". There are "standard" contracts that may offer deals like that but all areas of contracts are negotiable.

People just breaking in get chumped sometimes (often ?) & established writers generally get better deals, if they press for them.

Further, arrangements can be renegotiated, altered in retrospect or have clauses that bump things up if enough success ensues [check into McCartney's increased percentage (granted during the 1970s) of his & Lennon's dismal publishing deal, based on his continued success].

There is absolutely no preset terms that one can presume, especially in the entertainment biz.

[2]Almost all writers, even the biggies, get "help with administration". That's the very basis of publishing co.s & agencies like ASCAP, BMI, SESAC, etc. Just try handling the details of all that stuff yourself & see where it gets you.

Also, the phrase "put up some money" is a danger signal. It's common & expected that one may owe money from advances made to you but anytime some one actually wants some money from you, watch out!

[3] Excellent idea for getting an idea of what one can generally expect but never depend on these to be fully up-to-date or to eliminate the need to consult an attorney who's actually experienced & cuurently active in the specific area for which you need advice.

Entertainment law's an ever-changing area.

 

& Lou, the publisher does indeed own the © for the material. Sometimes these are deals that have limitations (again, everythings negotiable).

That's why most people form their own publishing co. & have an agency administer it. Of course, even if you just sign with an existing publisher an agency handles the actual colection of fees, royalties, etc.

[Loufrance]

Originally posted by d:

Originally posted by RicBassGuy:

[Point 1] There are two equal percentages for every song: one for the writer(s) and one for the publisher(s)..

 

When a publisher asks for publishing rights, they're only after the publisher's percentage. You get to keep the writer's percentage. If you self-publish, you get to keep both.

 

If you co-write a song, you split just the writer's percentage. This does not affect the publisher's cut. Likewise, if you co-publish the song, you split just the publisher's percentage.

 

[point 2]Just remember, if you want to self-publish and then co-publish with someone, you're going to have to help with the publishing work and/or put up some money for publishing. A publisher isn't going to split the percentage with you 50-50 and still do 100% of the publishing duties.

 

As d points out, you should never have to sign away your writer's percentage.

 

[Point 3]There are plenty of good books out there that explain this a little better. Try checking out your local library; I found plenty of good info there.

[1]I'm not sure that's true, insofar as "equal percentage". There are "standard" contracts that may offer deals like that but all areas of contracts are negotiable.

People just breaking in get chumped sometimes (often ?) & established writers generally get better deals, if they press for them.

Further, arrangements can be renegotiated, altered in retrospect or have clauses that bump things up if enough success ensues [check into McCartney's increased percentage (granted during the 1970s) of his & Lennon's dismal publishing deal, based on his continued success].

There is absolutely no preset terms that one can presume, especially in the entertainment biz.

[2]Almost all writers, even the biggies, get "help with administration". That's the very basis of publishing co.s & agencies like ASCAP, BMI, SESAC, etc. Just try handling the details of all that stuff yourself & see where it gets you.

Also, the phrase "put up some money" is a danger signal. It's common & expected that one may owe money from advances made to you but anytime some one actually wants some money from you, watch out!

[3] Excellent idea for getting an idea of what one can generally expect but never depend on these to be fully up-to-date or to eliminate the need to consult an attorney who's actually experienced & cuurently active in the specific area for which you need advice.

Entertainment law's an ever-changing area.

 

& Lou, the publisher does indeed own the © for the material. Sometimes these are deals that have limitations (again, everythings negotiable).

That's why most people form their own publishing co. & have an agency administer it. Of course, even if you just sign with an existing publisher an agency handles the actual colection of fees, royalties, etc.

So IMHO it be better just to publish your own work and then have an agency administer it.

[D_dup3]

Wel that gives you a larger potential slice of the pie...but it entails more effort on your part not just to set up but to monitor...as wellas the costs of establishing the business enterprise.

[Loufrance]

Originally posted by d:

Wel that gives you a larger potential slice of the pie...but it entails more effort on your part not just to set up but to monitor...as wellas the costs of establishing the business enterprise.

Not to repeat what's been said or to be a pest

(Just to make sure I'm clear on this, I will read more about this elsewhere to)

You have two options.. Keep your copyrights and go through the trouble of publishing your work yourself, or giving up your copyright to a biz in exchange for them doing most of the leg work.

[Eric VB]

Well, d seems more up on this than me.

 

[1] You're right, I forgot to mention that everything is negotiable. At least at one point in time in the U.S. the "standard" was that the writer's and publisher's percentages were the same.

 

[2] I'll offer this link from music-law.com on publishing .

 

Here\'s an interview with Danny Strick , a publisher. Notice in part 2 that for a development deal, the publisher may provide money for studio time. Let's say the publisher you're working with normally fronts all the money for studio time. If you're retaining 50% of the publishing rights, guess what: you're now also responsible for 50% of the studio costs. That's what I meant when I said you may have to put up some money if you want to retain some publishing rights. You can't get something for nothing. You can't collect an extra share of royalties without also sharing the responsibilites. Nobody would agree to such a deal.

 

[3] Again, excellent advice, d. Never sign a contract without having your entertainment lawyer look it over first.

 

Any chance, Lou, that you're located in France? If so, you'll probably want to check with a local expert, as I'm sure there are bound to be differences between the U.S. and French legal systems.

 

It sounds like your summary is correct, Lou.

 

Publishing is still evolving. Before recorded music and performance agencies, a songwriter needed a publisher to literally publish their music. That is, to print and distribute sheet music so people could play the songs on their pianos at home. During the "tin pan alley" days, publishers were the key for bringing songwriters and recording artists together. The current trend in the recording industry is to primarily use singer/artists and producers, so publishers are pretty much only needed for the administration work.

 

With the internet and home recording, a writer/artist can produce their own recordings, publish (distribute) them on the 'net, and take care of administration (with the help of agencies). In short, a single person can conceivably "do it all".

 

The problem will come from a promotion standpoint. How does such a person get anyone to listen to (let alone purchase) their songs when everyone is doing this? Instead of facing 10 choices, the consumer may be facing 1,000, or 100,000. How do you let the consumer know your product exists, and how do you differentiate it in a vast sea of competition? But this of course is a topic for a different thread.

[D_dup3]

Originally posted by Loufrance:

Not to repeat what's been said or to be a pest

(Just to make sure I'm clear on this, I will read more about this elsewhere to)

You have two options.. Keep your copyrights and go through the trouble of publishing your work yourself, or giving up your copyright to a biz in exchange for them doing most of the leg work.

Even if you set up your own companies, there will be someone else doing the [accounting] "legwork", unless you're hip to the ins/outs of entertainment biz accounting.

 

All I can do is reiterate that nothing is as simple as it may seem or that we here can specify for you; everything depends on the exact situation & what you determine is the best way for you to proceed, best done after discussing the situation with an attorney active in the field.

Though Ric's deferred to me in this regard, I point out that I'm not capable of giving you legal advice, merely of pointing out some considerations.

 

Also keep in mind that while most Western countries are party to the Berne convention on international © law, each nation has their own laws that sometimes change or are amended.

Advice from one country may not always be applicable to another...& some countries are not even parties to that standard.

Always get your definitive advice from someone in your land of residence who's a qualified expert.

[Loufrance]

Great links! and thanks for the excellent advice guys.