Credit on tunes...

[Tedster]

What, in everyone's opinion, is an equitable way to share writing credit where collaborations are concerned (depending on parts contributed)?

 

I had a rather unique chord progression that I was playing (once upon a time) but no real words or melody. A friend of mine took the ball and came up with words and melody. So, in my mind, he wrote the tune (as, usually, that's what they use to define "writing"). But, as he wrote it over my chord bit (riff, if you will), in your opinion, should I have at least a partial credit, or should I just quit my whining and give him the whole bit?

 

No arguments...I'm just wondering if there's some cut-and-dried table to refer to, or if it's more of an agreement between writers.

[BillWelcome Home Studios]

It is an agreement between writers.

As I see it, you guys didn't have any agreement (not as described, anyway)

 

Unless you were playing something really incredibly unique, you'd likely loose in court, as his side would search out every instance of that chord progression ever recorded, and introduce them as evidence that you didn't come up with anything original.

 

Unless I have a song or am working on a song based on something that I am playing, I don't care if someone else 'borrows' it. I don't look for or expect credit, because we didn't sit down and write a song, and no formal agreement exists.

 

Hel, I've played uncredited on so many recordings, given writers chord resolutions, arangement ideas and completed lines and rewrote phrases... all uncredited. And I am fine with that. When I sit down to create art, then I want credit. That other stuff is just stuff that we do. I mean, do you credit the lead guitar player as a writer because he 'wrote' the solo? Most people don't. Did the drummer 'write' his part? gets dicey.

 

Bill

[DC]

I don't think I'd worry about it too much. Just write a new melody and lyrics over your same chord bed.

 

If you're in the biz, it gets really messed up. Sting was just in the building when Dire Straits was recording 'Money for Nothing.' Sting came in and just jammed a bit with them and came up with that tiny bit; "I want my MTV." Well, Sting's management came in and Sting ended up with half that tune. Weird.

[I I mjrn]

A chord/harmonic progression in itself can't be copyrighted. Nor can a rhythm. Only melodic material & lyrics get that nod.

 

It certainly sounds like a general collaboration to me & as a technicality you might be able to pursue the matter, if it were worth it monetarily. Sometimes people get credit for their input even if it stretches the absolutes of law.

 

I wonder---though you needn't explain here, to us---how it is that your "friend" came to get the basic material unless you shared it with him, possibly with the suggestion or request that he work on it.

You might even be able to claim this as a "work for hire", wherein you asked him to help you finish the composition & his development of it belongs to you!

That's how it commonly works when a bandmember or session player fleshes out a song with their contributions. It would certainly be no less fair than him trying to deny you your credit.

[Tedster]

Everyone's reading too much into this, although this is helpful, there's no competition or bad blood going on. I really don't care if I get any credit.

 

I would say that the story I heard about the song "Satisfaction" sort of applies here...according to legend as I understand it, Keith Richards woke up one morning with a riff in his head, played it on guitar, Jagger heard it and wrote a song around it. Sort of that thing.

 

But, it really wouldn't bother me at all if he took the whole onion. No publishing companies are fighting over it anyhoo...

[I I mjrn]

That's very amiable of you, fully in keeping with how you seem, Ted, but the basic point is that all agreements are as arranged, not automatic & that potential collaborators need to agree, not presume, before they get to loggerheads.

[robmix]

Originally posted by Michael Jackson's real nose:

That's very amiable of you, fully in keeping with how you seem, Ted, but the basic point is that all agreements are as arranged, not automatic & that potential collaborators need to agree, not presume, before they get to loggerheads.

Uhh, to a point yes, all agreements are arranged but there's plenty of precident that states otherwise. If two or more writers work on a song and no prior arrangement was agreed upon they must share ownership equally - regardless of who came up with what.

[BillWelcome Home Studios]

Originally posted by Tedster:

Everyone's reading too much into this, ...

I didn't, but I took the info a step further, since you remarked that the part you played was somewhat unique.

 

Bill

[Tedster]

Well, this is actually interesting, and I suppose some other scenarios should be discussed...as to, for instance, how much lyrical contribution someone should have in order to gain credit. Again, I surmise that it's up to the parties in question to agree.

[Bunny Knutson]

John Lennon on the song Scared:

"You know, I think Mick Jagger took the song and turned it into Miss You. When I was in the studio, the engineer said, "This is a hit song if you just do it faster." He was right, because Miss You is a fast version of my song. I like Mick's record better. I have no ill feelings about it. It could have subconscious on Mick's part or conscious. Music is everybody's possession. It's only publishers who think that people own it."

I'm not trying to make a specific point; I just really appreciate that quote.

[robmix]

Originally posted by Tedster:

Well, this is actually interesting, and I suppose some other scenarios should be discussed...as to, for instance, how much lyrical contribution someone should have in order to gain credit. Again, I surmise that it's up to the parties in question to agree.

I often contribute to lyrics as a producer, fixing some words, helping an artist define the chorus better, etc. but don't ask for credit unless I'm completely rewriting the song. In most cases I don't even bother. But it's a pretty open book. Honestly if someone contributes any lyric they're entitled to a portion of the credit. How much is up to the writers. I've seen writers brought into almost finished songs to write a bridge or rework a chorus and get anywhere from 10% to 25%. Honestly R&B has changed a lot of the rules, many of them unwritten. Today, drum programmers are considered songwriters whereas in the past only melody and lyrics were considered "the song". Copyright law has yet to address this.

[Bunny Knutson]

Good post, Rob. I know just what you mean, on all counts.

[I I mjrn]

Originally posted by robmix:

If two or more writers work on a song and no prior arrangement was agreed upon they must share ownership equally - regardless of who came up with what.

You're right but that seems to address cases where all parties agree on the fact of collaboration. Where that very fact is in dispute is where things can get sticky.

[djwayne]

What if the song loses money ?? Will you help cover the expenses of recording, producing, and marketing it ??

 

I can hear the guy at the recording studio now, "Oh, you're the one who wrote this song ?? This is your song ?? Well here's YOUR bill !! I have a thousand copies of it that didn't sell, Ya want em ??"

[Tedster]

 

That's show biz...

[BillWelcome Home Studios]

Originally posted by djwayne:

What if the song loses money ?? Will you help cover the expenses of recording, producing, and marketing it ??

 

I can hear the guy at the recording studio now, "Oh, you're the one who wrote this song ?? This is your song ?? Well here's YOUR bill !! I have a thousand copies of it that didn't sell, Ya want em ??"

So do you blame the creator, or the salesmen? The best product in the world will sink like a stone without a good sales team behind it, yet the salesmen, who get commisions on products that sell well, never take a down side on products that do not sell. You are at their mercy. If they don't give it their all, you're hosed. (That would be the slimy guys with the weird suits and bad rugs.)

 

Bill

[Bill Beeson]

Ah!..But what if the song makes millions?..Will the same logic apply?

[BillWelcome Home Studios]

Originally posted by Bill Beeson:

Ah!..But what if the song makes millions?..Will the same logic apply?

Yes, it does. You have to recognise the efforts of your marketting team. Sazme holds true for the whole chain..... do you think that, on a live gig, your sound guy has no value? You can suck on your own. But if you are playing your best, he can make you sound wonderful or horrible. Sucess in media software is a team effort.

 

Bill

[Dave Morehouse]

Sucess in media software is a team effort.

 

I agree fully. Unless you are coffee house gigging cover songs you are never alone in music. Since it is a team effort you need to be certain that you can work with everyone on your team. You should also have a pretty straightforward understanding of who owns and does whatever happens musically. Just my humble opinion but I, probably like most of you, have lost a few very good friends by not completely understanding what we were doing from the beginning. Dave Morehouse

[Cozmicslop]

I have a simple way to do splits. I write alone usually. Then I bring it to a band or other group of guys I play with. It's never happened that they didn't supply great Ideas for the music that I would probably not have thought of.

 

Splits always go Lyrics- Me

Music - Me + (everyone in the room that played on the initial demo). If all you supplied were hand claps and oh yeahs you still split 25%.

 

No one else does this. Even though we all collaborate on each others music, I'm the only one that shares credit in this way.

 

Why? No way would I be able to afford to pay for their help. Sometimes that two note keyboard line really helps to define the song.

 

Otherwise, if I could afford it, I'd just pay them each 50 - 75 bucks as a work for hire and send them on their way.

 

In Tedsters case. it seems logical that he should get at least 50% or more of the music and his bud should get 100% lyric + 50% or less - music. The song wouldn't exist at all without your part. Doesn't make sense you should be completely cut out.

[Michelle ggurl]

Ted, to keep this simple ...

 

How important was your chord playing in inspiring the song? That is, how fundamental was you effort and creative energy in making it come to be?

 

If your friend wouldn't have come up with this without you, your friend should give you credit. If you're not a big-name artist or producer, these kinds of things are good-will gestures that can be legitimately claimed in a business sense by bigger artists.

 

I've given and received writing credit for nominal contributions ... it just depends on the situation. And, I've not pursued credit for a bass groove/chord progression a friend's band put lyrics to and called their song. (Think "Satisfaction" in terms of how key the riff and progression was to the song.) It just depends on the circumstance.

 

It doesn't necessarily have to be a 50/50 split. You guys can at least hammer out a simple agreement that says "For song [name] created on [date] Ted gets 20% writing credit and [friend] gets 80%." Or whatever.

 

And DJWayne's contention about the bills being yours ... not necessarily. Are YOU putting together the band playing the song? Are YOU deciding to record it and release it? Are YOU making $$ off the gigs? Are YOU making $$ off the CD release? Didn't think so. Bands play/record songs written by others all the time. Big-name bands. And these songs are hits.

 

The tradeoff is that the only portion as passive songwriter, as in case above, that you'd be entitled to is the writer's portion of the publishing rights. Standard business case of minimal risk, minimal reward.

 

Still, it sounds like that might not ever really be an issue. Still, better safe than sorry. Protect your part of that.

 

Does this help?

[Tedster]

Originally posted by geekgurl:

Ted, to keep this simple ...

 

How important was your chord playing in inspiring the song? That is, how fundamental was you effort and creative energy in making it come to be?

 

If your friend wouldn't have come up with this without you, your friend should give you credit.

My chord playing inspired the song. I was working on this riff, and mentioned that I didn't have any words or a real melody for it. He wouldn't have come up with it without it. I consider it to be at least a part collaboration.

 

Of course, one could take that to the "Chuck Berry inspired a lot of Beatles' songs" end.

 

Either way, it's a good song, and I hope it gets recorded eventually.

[Michelle ggurl]

Originally posted by Tedster:

Of course, one could take that to the "Chuck Berry inspired a lot of Beatles' songs" end.

Naw, I don't think so ... you can't be pointed to as a mere influence in his artistic development ... he took something you started and finished it. I hope you and he work out the credits thing satisfactorily. Let us know how it goes.

[Tedster]

Actually, you know, there really is no problem, because we really haven't gotten around to recording the song yet.

[Anifa]

Ted,

 

When working on the Fantasy League Project, the first song "Howl's at the Moon" was a song that I had written both lyrically and melodically with a very rough chord progression supplied. Although I can write simple chord progressions; I don't feel competent in writing full blown arrangements. DanS took the lyrics/melody/rough sketch chord progression and rewrote the arrangements while keeping with the same melody structure. He provided a chord chart for the others to play their parts by. In the credits list for the Internotes CD, DanS and I are listed as the songwriters of the song; Dan for music and myself for lyrics. Although the melody was already established, there was a small section where I needed some form to pull a chorus out; I gave Dan the freedom to expand on his ability and then followed his lead of chords to write the melody for the chorus. By all rights, I was well within my range to claim lyrics AND melody, but I was happy as heck in getting to work with ALL of the guys on the SOMA team and Dan did a fantastic job in writing the revised chord structure for HATM.

 

On the second song "Answers in the Rain", Brett Rader (MixterRader) placed a small bit of a guitar riff that he had came up with into the FTP. When I downloaded it and began listening to the file I was completely mezmerized. I started writing the melody to what was there, but the progression supplied fell two measures shy of where I was wanting to go with the melody. I contacted Brett and ask him if he could repeat an exact replica of two measures (making them four of the same) at a certain point of the song while providing him a rough idea of the tune I had going. I finished writing the melody and lyrics the same night that Brett returned the revised chord stucture. Brett supplied a chord chart for the others to follow their parts by. Again, the credits were listed as Brett being the writer of music and myself being the writer of lyrics... (even though I wrote the melody in it's entirety) I know that I would not have been able to have written a melody that beautiful without the inspiration of Brett's classical spanish guitar... I love that guy!!!

 

All of the responsibilities were so divided among most of the members of the SOMA team that we pretty much agreed that we would split things into five equal parts; the only one that I had not heard back from on it, was Brett.

 

Later, John Lampson entered the scene, and if we ever get the last song we were all working on together done; John and I will take the writing credits. The way that tune came about is somewhat interesting; John had signed up for the "Boot Kickin' Country" collaboration that I'd put up for dibs... there wasn't much room left for John's input on Cheap Talkin' Fool, so I asked him if he'd consider working on another tune. I supplied the chord progression, once again, and the lyrics.... but I didn't put an audio sample of the tune up or any instructions as to the mood and tempo.

 

The song supplied was meant to be upbeat, ornery, and sassy; whereas the music John delivered was soul stirring... deep ... deep ... philosophically inspirational music. I told him that I didn't like the arrangements for the song it was intended for, but asked him if he minded me writing an entirely new song that would fit the mood of the music.... I hope that someday the song gets finished, as it's a fantastic song just like the others that the guys of SOMA have helped me do. When it is complete, John and I will be listed as the writers, but the final production will be an equal divide among the SOMA members that were a part of it.

 

So not to let the other two outstanding members of the SOMA team go unmentioned, Bob Phillips (20to20) and Frank Louden (Wrave) were very much a part of making everything happen as it did as well.

 

I would not want to get caught up in a situation somewhere down the road like Simon and Garfunkel, to where Art Garfunkel came up with many of the incredible melodies yet never received any credit for songwriting... but I believe in giving credit where credit is due.

 

When a person can take a song that I would write composition in comparison to Twinkle, Twinkle, Little Star and make it sound more like The Star Spangled Banner.... THEY HAVE ADDED SOMETHING THAT WAS NOT THERE TO MY SONG and made my works sound that much better.

 

I would eventually like to compile enough songs to complete a full CD, whether it's with SOMA or others capable of the same quality of music that these guys put out.... and then credit all the contributors as backing musicians to a solo artist release; that is, unless SOMA decides they might someday want to get together again for another few tunes here and there.

 

The song Cheap Talking Fool, that I did with Rob Campbell, would not be one that I'd want to put on the same CD as the others; but it's a kick-butt country song that would probably find a good market for some sassy country singer to belt out... it's been quite a while since I've talked to Rob; dunno if he'd be up to the two of us pitching the song or not. Again, 50/50 divide.

 

Sorry for the longwinded post...

[Tedster]

Good insights! Thanks, Ani!

[Loudnoize Ent.]

I often contribute to lyrics as a producer, fixing some words, helping an artist define the chorus better, etc. but don't ask for credit unless I'm completely rewriting the song. In most cases I don't even bother. But it's a pretty open book. Honestly if someone contributes any lyric they're entitled to a portion of the credit. How much is up to the writers. I've seen writers brought into almost finished songs to write a bridge or rework a chorus and get anywhere from 10% to 25%. Honestly R&B has changed a lot of the rules, many of them unwritten. Today, drum programmers are considered songwriters whereas in the past only melody and lyrics were considered "the song". Copyright law has yet to address this.

Agreed... Bottom line is without the track, no matter how simple or fully produced, the song would never have gotten written without it. So I feel credit is due on all counts. Also, important to discuss percentages before handing anything out.

[leftalive]

I was about to start a new thread, but this one seems appropriate...

 

I have a situation where I wrote a song (lyrics, melody, the whole 9 yards) and asked a friend to come in and sing it for me as a favor. She had mentioned to me in the past that if I ever needed some vocals done to call her, because she wants to sing more (she's not a pro by any means, but I'm sure that she'd like to be).

I told her that I couldn't afford to pay her for her time, but that she would definitley get credit for the work. After the fact I told her that if the song should get picked up I would give her what I could.

She was genuinely excited just to have the chance to sing a good song, and the session went really well.

Long story short, the song ended up getting picked up by a small label for a single release, and I recieved a smallish (hundreds of dollars) advance.

As soon as she found this out, every conversation that we had revolved around money. She has it in her head that I'm going to be a rock star now, and that the advance was gigantic (in spite of me explaining otherwise). I offered to pay her what I would have in the first place had I known that it was going to get picked up, but I want her to sign an invoice stating that payment for her services has been made in full.

Keep in mind that this is my first ever "record deal" and therefore I'm pretty new to this end of things.

She is going to be billed as a featured performer on the front cover (a move that I thought would be a courtesy to her, but now I'm not so sure) and I'm wondering about a few things.

Should she decide, either now or down the road, to try and squeeze me for more money, would she have a legal leg to stand on? I would'nt think so seeing as how I am the undisputed and sole author of the song, but does the fact that she's a featured performer change anything? How grey is this area? She didn't come up with any part of what she did (I dictated the vocal melody to her). I don't want to cheat anyone out of what they're rightfully owed (the amount I've offered already is more than fair for a two hour vocal session), but at the same time, I don't want to get screwed because some ill-informed person had dollar signs in there eyes. There was no prior written agreement (last time that I do that), so I'm a little nervous here. Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

[jabney]

hi leftalive,

 

This thread is about copyright. Here is my take on the issue (keep in mind that I am not a lawyer so do not consider this as legal advice). Copyright is the ownership position that the songwriter has by virtue of having written the song.

 

If the singer has contributed nothing to the writing of the song, then you are the sole owner of the copyright. That means if a more famous singer covers the song, the original singer would be morally entitled to zilch from the cover. That is, nothing from your copyright royalties (aka mechanicals), and nothing from the famous singer's performance royalties.

 

However, if there are performance royalties earned by the recording on which she sang, in my opinion, she is morally entitled to a healthy share (I gather she sang lead, right?) of the bounty.

 

Legally, it may come down to who has the better lawyer. And, in the real world, a performer with enough clout may magically become a songwriter without contributing anything more than an extra conjuction to the lyrics.

[leftalive]

Yeah, I realize that my post is slightly off topic, but it seemed to fit in here.

Truth be told, there isn't even a problem yet, I just have a habit of rehearsing the worst case scenario when I get a whiff of something funky (so to speak).

She hasn't said or done anything specifically that would lead me to believe that she wants to sue, but I'd like to get some advice now to preserve peace of mind.