Coming up with fresh lyric structure.

[shniggens]

Just like alot of other aspects of my songwriting, my lyrical structure, and syllable placement, are starting to sound the same. What a drag.

 

Granted I am a beginner at this lyric writing stuff. I definately consider myself a musician before poet. But I know I can do better.

 

I find that all my phrases have the same number of syllables, the same number of lines . . . it's like my brain is on autopilot . . . or maybe it's not.

 

What kind of things help you get out of a lyrical rut?

 

I think I may be concentrating on a rhyme too hard. I only have one song that just came out so fast, my hand could barely keep up with my thoughts. MAN, that felt good.

 

Now I'm in a rut.

 

I've considered taking songs that I really like, and try to write lyrics just around the rhythmic structure, just to get me thinking differently.

 

Have you ever just wrote a story, and then condensed it to lyrics . . . summarized?

 

I prefer to write lyrics before the music. Or at least, not think about what lyrics I'm putting with what music. That way I won't really be structuring the words AROUND the music. I would rather do it the other way around.

 

Anyway, feel free to babble about it like I just did.

[noneverstuck]

Give yourself an uncommon (for you) pattern before you start (three-line verse of 6,13 then 8 syllables; rhyme the last two--go!)

 

Don't write a long story, make quick observations (think Impressionist)

 

Stop making sense

 

Write to the structure of a well-known instrumental (not a song with lyrics--they'll stick in your head)--then throw out the music and write new music to match your lyrics.

 

stop trying to rhyme

 

Write with someone else's voice in your head (Bugs Bunny, Kissinger, Spock)

 

Read a line to a friend and tell them to repeat it back to you. They will invariable paraphrase. Use their line.

 

So very tired...

 

Deef

[shniggens]

AWESOME ideas! Thank you so much. Right now I have Porky Pig telling me all about love.

 

[noneverstuck]

http://home.earthlink.net/~stvwllms/deef/silk.jpg

[shniggens]

[member 30687]

I'd go further...& less far.

Forget counting syllables & all that; it's a digression from your focus.

Try writing only to music that you've already outlined & don't write from progressions---a common fault of beginning rock-oriented writers---write melodies.

Unless all your tunes have the same qualities, you should at least have some that lead you to a more varied lyirc pattern.

If they don't, examine why you write the same types of material & explore how to widen your musical range.

[skipclone 1]

er, like, keep a journal? write something in it every day.

[BillWelcome Home Studios]

Originally posted by skipclone 1:

er, like, keep a journal? write something in it every day.

That is an excellent idea for the person who wants to be a writer. How can you be a writer if you do not write? How can you dig deep when you don't dig at all? Writing begats writing, and practice does make perfect.

 

Some people can approach writing from an analytical standpoint, and find working within strict technical confines to be a worthwhile challenge. Others write from the heart, and fit it in to a structure later. Both ways work. But the FIRST thing to do is to writem write often, and try to speak in your own voice rather than the cliches you hear on TV and in recordings.

 

Bill

[whitefang]

Concentrate on the music you wrap around the lyrics. If you read the lyrics posted on many artists CD covers, you'll often find repetitious meter. A lot of Don Henley's songs seem to be like that. Quite often, I've noticed Joni Mitchell does it, too. Only when placed inside the structure of the music do you fail to notice. Especially if the music is good!

 

Whitefang

[Kendrix]

Buy the books offerd by Pat Patterson.

He teaches at Berkley and has the best analysis of what you are struggling wtih that Ive seen. It can get a bit tedious - but it really lays out all the dimensions and options you have in this regard.

 

Highly recommended.

[Ernest Buckley]

I've considered taking songs that I really like, and try to write lyrics just around the rhythmic structure, just to get me thinking differently.

Thats a good idea. I`ve done that and it has helped me as well.

 

Ernest

[Billster]

These are all good ideas.

 

Don't worry so much about rhymes, and stick your rhythmic sense in there.

 

Keep a topic in mind, but find the rhythm first, just babbling words with no meaning. You have heard the McCartney started singing the melody to "Yesterday" by crooning "scrambled eggs"? like that. Then just find the words to tell your story that fit the strong melodic rhythm you established with the nonsense words.

 

And Pat Pattison is awesome (former student sepaking)

[Funk Jazz]

read lyrics by Andy Partridge of XTC

 

read Pablo Neruda

 

and as someone said before, keep a journal. the only way to get better at writing is to write.

[revolead]

Originally posted by bpark@prorec.com:

Originally posted by skipclone 1:

er, like, keep a journal? write something in it every day.

That is an excellent idea for the person who wants to be a writer. How can you be a writer if you do not write? How can you dig deep when you don't dig at all? Writing begats writing, and practice does make perfect.

Bill

As a writer, I can understand and relate to this entirely. However, I would like to add, there are several ways to approach writing of any kind, and in your case lyrics.

 

1. Write about how you feel. Who cares what form it's in? Just get some words on a page, even if it's only in a paragraph. Chances are out of the 100 words you wrote at least 5 will be good fodder for some greater work.

 

2. The above seems like it would take forever. So, to accelerate the process, write a lot. However, I go against the normal crowd in saying write often. If you don't feel like writing, chances are your writing will suck. I haven't written in my journal in two weeks. Why? Because I've felt the same for two weeks. Why write about how you feel when it all appears the same? I tried to write daily, I ended up saying the same thing over the course of 3 single-spaced, typed pages.

 

3. Find something you really care about. If you hate communism, write about hating communism. If you love carrots, write about loving carrots. I know these seem like cliched and stupid examples, but the point is still the same. Whenever I really care about something, I can tell based on what I write and how much I write. I once liked a girl enough to write over 14 pages of poems and prose about her. It seems pathetic and sappy, but it got me to think, and some great lyrics came out of it. Even better (well sort of), after she broke my heart, I had an additional 4 pages of writing that for some reason was even better than when I was happy. The best lyrics come out of the experiences that hurt the most.

 

Hope those thoughts help.

[shniggens]

[Barandine Vondenger]

if you is rehashing old lyric structures and you is RUTTIFIED then you jus' neee to larn new types of songs.

larn a hank williams tune. then a Pink floyd tune. then a black sabbath tune then a reggae tune then a delta blues song now a chicago blues song.

or whatever you like so long as it's DIFFERENT than what you're doing now.

If you did the last song on electric then do the next on acoustic or piano or organ or anything so long as it's different.

Keep learning songs note for note and WRITE BY HAND all the lyrics of every song you learn/ write the chords over top of the words where the chords change..

Do this to learn to write songs too.

learn ten new songs and three different styles and then write one of your own in each of those styles.

you'll finde the ease of writing is right there in OTHER SONGS.

then keep learning NEW stuff to continue to grow in your musicianship.

MOVE the JAMS..

[shniggens]

Thanks, arrel.

 

I have been making a conscious effort to write new lyrics or melodies in different styles just as practice, and you're right, it does open the senses to different options and helps spontena . . spontaneous, spontenaety, you know, come up with new shit fast.

 

[hariseldon]

Yes!! Great replies on this post...

I'd humbly add another exercise..

Try to come up with five to ten different characters of your invention. Write a sheet or two in which they introduce themselves using their own language style, and talk about their life, tastes, motivations etc... Include a fustrated artist.

Are there any other kinds of artists? I wonder..

 

Oh and never write one tenth as much as you read...

[Barandine Vondenger]

Originally posted by hariseldon:

Yes!! Great replies on this post...

I'd humbly add another exercise..

Try to come up with five to ten different characters of your invention. Write a sheet or two in which they introduce themselves using their own language style, and talk about their life, tastes, motivations etc... Include a fustrated artist.

Are there any other kinds of artists? I wonder..

 

Oh and never write one tenth as much as you read...

are you is spakeing aboot writting a story? and fleshing oot the folkes what play in the um uh, scenes?

that seems like a goot excercise for storys.

But I like the mystery of the guy in that tune TARRY ROAD.

no descriptions allows the listener; nay, invites the listener and encourages the listener even guides the listener into relating directly with that character, (who's lamenting his lost love which you finde out at the end).

TARRY ROAD

I never fleshed him out and I don't know why but I see him in a hotel room with a blinking light outside his window; with the window open and he sweating bullets, sittin' on his wore out hotel bed, alone and in great pain/turmoil..

you know he was born poor and he knows he'll die poor, prolly so, you know..

like everbody really..

you can't take nothin' with you.. ahahaha! but if you could.. They would'nt be nothin' left.. ahaha!LOL. ahck-ackcoff- coff,coff wheeze hack sniff,sniff.. blow(wope,wipe) ahhh.. ..

I've written short storys but never developed the character more than the story called for. An evil creepy street preacher who killed people he just saved needed no mucho' "development othre than what transpired dureing the course of the story.

He,arrives, enters, saves her from eternal damnation and hellfire and he's so warped, he be;lieves that if he leaves he won't have saved her from hell cause she'll "probably sin as soon as he leaves" so he must kille her with GODS WORD which (the story wanted) to be a frog gig he welded in his BIBLE HAND,, the nameless preacher killes and leaves to save a few more souls. I really liked the lady he killed.. her name was mary washington. she was a nice, but simple, big, fat black lady.you don't know if she had chilluns' or granchilluns. she never speaks of them and the story never describes any childrens but the story never encourages thwe listener to believe she does'nthave any. but rather allows the listener to connect his or her OWN DOTS.. see?.

Same with me. I have a idea of how mrs. washington looks( the lady the creepy preacher killes with a frog gig(he sees a bible in his hand/not a frog gig)) and you'll have your idea of how she looks.. I did this on purpose see?

 

see no development needed othre than to support the story. why be bogged down with pointless details for short,short storys. Maybe with a NOVEL..

 

thanks for letting me share.

[hariseldon]

Hahaha,

Cool post and story.. Well I have to agree with you, I usually prefer authors that meet you half way down the road of meaning rather than those who throw up a predigested story on you. I actually found everything in the thread to be a very complete point of advice. Boot ya knou? Zoomtimes u yust gotta poast!! Did I get that right? I doubt it...

Anyway, just thought that with the exercise I suggested you force yourself to use the language differently and frame into other people's feelings and don't have to rely so much on your own mood. What a character says and how he says it may determine the importance of what he/she doesn't say...perhaps...

 

Anyway your story, stripped off unessential data worked with me. In my case, I even had to look up what a frog gig is...

 

Good post!! Thanks for the comment

[Barandine Vondenger]

Originally posted by hariseldon:

Hahaha Boot ya knou? Zoomtimes u yust gotta poast!

Anyway, just thought that with the exercise I suggested you force yourself to use the language differently and frame into other people's feelings and don't have to rely so much on your own mood. What a character says and how he says it may determine the importance of what he/she doesn't say...perhaps...

 

Anyway your story, stripped off unessential data worked with me. In my case, I even had to look up what a frog gig is...

[/QB]

FROG GIG:

Yeah it's just a three pronged gig, no wooden handle.

 

Echos of myself:

even when I wrote about a multi-parsecs sized entity that was in a type of space-prison for crimes against lesser creatures; I still used my thoughts and thought processes. he or it spoke with my voice and how I might feel as a petulant insincere monster intent only on destroying as much life as possible for instant gratifacation and sustenance; it would be impossible for me to give any creature anything other than my personal human emotions.

I have no othre reference points.

Human angsts and a human plot, creature against himself/creature against man, creature against nature.

why do you think the star trek series got so cheesy so fast..

 

HARI SELDON:

"born in the 11,988th yeah of the Galactic era. He died:12,069"

He was a er,uh, ah, will be a Psycho-historian of the highest order.. the founder of the science. ASIMOV is a great writter..

[Archer]

here's another approach you might try...

 

if you are stuck using the same syllables you might want to start by writing down a different syllable count for each line and then using a currant song to fill in the new syllable count.

 

in other words, start with the (random) syllable count and place your existing lyrics to match. You will probably have to come up with different phrases and imagery to match the new syllable count but this can also be a good thing.

 

For myself, I always write the lyrics and melodies together. If the melody doesn't work I redo it and change the lyrics (keeping the original meaning) to match the new melody. If I don't keep the melodies fresh it's to easy to use the same or similar ones too many times.

[a_mad_cow]

one thing i have found, is that when you actually TRY to write something, you usually end up with it sounding like someone else's music. To fix this, i came up with a good(at least it works for me) idea.

Now, this may sound like something you wouold do in kindergarden.. but it works. Think of a basic topic. I really mean basic, a few words at most. It doesn't matter what it is, what made you think of it, what kind of music you want to write it to... etc... Then, throughout the day, just think on that/those word(s) and write down all the little things that come to your mind. Write EVERYTHING, even the stupid stuff.

Then, just write sentences, not neccesarily poetry, preferebly not in a coherent storyline. take that pile of jibberish, and re-arrange it, write it so it makes sense to YOU, not neccesarily to anyone who reads it. Write it for you. when people are listening to music, they often don't notice the story in it, and sometimes know little more about the lyrics except the chorus and the title(these are important.)

Once it makes a little sence, try to find a way to sing/read/mumble...etc... it so that it sounds good(not just to you this time). THEN fix teh music to surround it. If you are also writing the music, it helps to listen to classical music, or music that you don't find particularly appealing. That gets you in the mood to write something that isn't just a blatant rip off of some other guy. You may end up writing the music just like the classical/pop...etc... music you were listening to, but since you are working in a different genre of music, it will sound different enough that you have already made it your own. DO NOT forget to change that music, use it as a BASE to your work, changing major parts of it, re-writing it as you see fit. Plenty of rock songs are based in classical music and/or blues and jazz. as long as you only base it on that other music, you are fine....

[a_mad_cow]

oh, and one more thing,... don't worry about the structure.. as long as you are the one singing it, you can figure out how you want it to sound just by singing it. You will probably automatically pause, raise your voice, lower it... etc... causing your music to sound the way you want it to be, not conforming with your pre-existing structure. If you try to force your round lyrics into the triangular hole, it probably won't fit.

doing that also gives your music, each time you sing it, a different feel, a slightly stranger style, that keeps your audience listening. Change gets people's attention, and if the lyrics are sung differently, your listener(s) will never stop paying attention, because they wan't to know how it ends, how much you changed it, to be able to say they heard that particular version.