OT - Is the New York Times really that stupid?

[nursers]

[quote]Originally posted by Ken/Eleven Shadows: [b]Elbert James wrote, "When the Eastern World/Arab community...whatever you wanna call it.. it wasn't Islam...I know too many that were just as appalled as I... committed their acts of death against the US in Sept, they sealed their collective fate with me...They can all go to Hell in a hand basket.." --------- Yeow!! So you're saying, "Because a few commit terrorist acts, they can all go to Hell?" That's a thought pattern frighteningly similar to terrorists.[/b][/quote]I couldn't agree more - equates to believing that all Germans were Nazis in WW2, or that all priests are child assuaulters.

[alphajerk]

i just find it difficult to see all this post911 nationalism while ignoring the simple facts that the US [NOT the citizens but the "powers" that be] has basically created a lot of the shit they are now "dealing" with and the economic connections involved. i dont think it was mere coincidence that dubya being in office had to do with what happened. it is just so evident that the current administrations hands are very dirty with their "interests" and the current state of affairs that are ongoing right now. not to mention the media which only reports face value... and a very diluted view of that, instead of engaging in REAL investigative journalism to find the web of connections that lie right beneath the surface. the media has become one big propaganda machine [like it wasnt before ;) ]

[alphajerk]

man, you just gotta see this quote: [http://www.muslimedia.com/archives/features98/saddam.htm] "In fact the brutal, blood-stained nature of Uncle Sam goes back all the way to the so-called 'Founding Fathers,' who made no attempt to conceal it. As long ago as 1818, John Quincy Adams hailed the 'salutary efficacy' of terror in dealing with 'mingled hordes of lawless Indians and negroes.' He was defending Andrew Jackson's frenzied operations in Florida which virtually wiped out the indigenous population and left the Spanish province under US control. Thomas Jefferson and his colleagues were not above professing to be impressed by the wisdom of his words." so who was so nationalistic re: my comments about the US' "little terrorists"???

[Charlie-brm]

I've been running some thoughts through my head for the last few months on finding parallels to this situation, to see how I would feel if the participants were totally different people. Who would I sympathize with? Who would I condemn? Who is all bad or all good? This isn't a cheapshot at U.S. history, it's just the only chain of events with which I am even vaguely familiar: Consider something like the Homestead Act of 1862. That was the culmination of a century of occupation by whites of native land. i.e. making official policy of something that had been going on for years, hard working families settling on land their civilization considered "vacant". It had the added good intention of paving the way for former slaves to get a piece of the pie and stem the expansion of slavery into the territories. 10% of the U.S. was claimed this way. Most of the web sites I searched praise this as one of the great Acts of U.S. history. They just don't mention Indians anywhere. So figure the natives are the Palestinians, the U.S. gov't is Israel's. Homesteaders work their claims, get title eventually and proudly consider it their land. Entire Indian nations get forced into inhospitable reservations or transported into the land of other Indian nations who try to accomodate them, but it's not home. Frustration mounts and they decide to go with the 'war chief' instead of the peace council. They break out. War parties raided settlers in their homes, ambushed soldiers. Considering the imbalance of power, that is like a suicide attack. They will either kill you that day or get you and your family later. If an Apache walked into the general store and lit up the gunpowder kegs 150 years ago, it would be barbaric and horrific. Looking back at it as history, we wouldn't be very surprised to read about it. Would we leave room to find the ones who would compromise? Blame them all? Kill 'em all? They couldn't accept the deal they were handed in the first place so screw them, they had their chance at peace? I just find the comparison interesting to work with.

[KenElevenShadows]

Alphajerk wrote: man, you just gotta see this quote: [http://www.muslimedia.com/archives/features98/saddam.htm] "In fact the brutal, blood-stained nature of Uncle Sam goes back all the way to the so-called 'Founding Fathers,' who made no attempt to conceal it. As long ago as 1818, John Quincy Adams hailed the 'salutary efficacy' of terror in dealing with 'mingled hordes of lawless Indians and negroes.' He was defending Andrew Jackson's frenzied operations in Florida which virtually wiped out the indigenous population and left the Spanish province under US control. Thomas Jefferson and his colleagues were not above professing to be impressed by the wisdom of his words." so who was so nationalistic re: my comments about the US' "little terrorists"??? -------- Your view is a more accurate view of what happened in our country's history. That was just one of the many links that I managed to pull up from a simple search on Google, although my intention was to show the CIA propping up Saddam Hussein. We've created a lot of these monsters. Saddam was more bent than the CIA figured, and now, we and a lot of others are paying for it. Selling arms to Iraq/Iran, supporting people like Hussein, and muckying in other region's affairs needs to be examined more closely. As far as people's misunderstanding of our own U.S. history, you can pretty much blame that on narrowmindedness and a very skewed view presented by our educational system. All someone has to think about is how we handled the native Americans, The Boston Tea Party, how we hid behind trees to snipe at the English Army, and a whole bunch of other things. Fortunately, England was embroiled in a war at the time and couldn't be bothered by their colonies, so they let it go.

[Nawledge]

you guys are simply put...right, but it's unfair to take it all out on Elbert James, to be perfectly honest it's all of our faults. do you ever noticed how organized evil networks of people are, they do their job of f_cking things up very well, it's the people who have good intentions, love one another, want peace in the world and their communities, and are non-racist that aren't doing diddly squat...nothing. and if the world is going to change those people will have to be as diligent as the other side. think about it while there out robbing goverment istallations of weaponry, training in the forest,and putting people in office to manipulate the system in every way, we're on a music forum kicking Elberts ass. No wonder they are winning. i'm not sure what the answer is but i'm sure it takes us all.

[alphajerk]

no one is kicking elberts ass... its merely a discussion.

[KenElevenShadows]

I agree. No one's kicking his butt. It's a discussion. Also, some of us ARE doing things to help out, even if it's just a little. It's a difficult thing, balancing activism and music.

[Nawledge]

I totally agree Ken. Imho education is the most powerful tool, i wish there was legislation at the federal level, that taught kids starting at the youngest ages possible on up how to interact with people from different cultures and backgrounds better cause most of the foul images they learn get grafted into their heads at home. school is about the only other place they regularly attend that can hope to compete with that. when i was 17 my father kicked me out of the house because he said that i had out grown it and wasn't respectful, he was talking alot of shit about hispanic people, they're bad, they're trouble, they should not be here blah blah blah. I told him that he wasn't any better than them, that what he was saying was nonsense, and that I didn't want to hear that crap. he blew up and said I out grew his house and had to go. but my parents taught me first and for most to think for myself, alot of kids aren't so lucky. they need a platform where race issues aren't hidden but are open and where that hate that their parents try to shove down their throats can be shown for what it realy is. stupidity and fear.