OT - Is the New York Times really that stupid?

[ernest828]

Seems like every post here has an underlying mention of IGNORANCE as the main cause. The US and every country that has ever existed has had an ignorance towards other countries. There are people who suggest the Muslim world just wants the West to get out of their culture. If the US left the region and had nothing to do with the Middle East, eventually a Saddam Hussein would have taken over other countries besides Kuwait. Iraq would have been next, Egypt, Israel, etc... this would start to look like another of Hitlers Germanys. People in Iraq are scared shitless just as the Germans were of Hitler. Getting out of the region does nothing to solve the problem, it just gives monsters like Hussein the freedom to do as he pleases. These Middle Eastern countries are not trying to get the Western culture out of their beloved land of Allah, they are JEALOUS and whenever there is a sense of uncontrolled jealousy, terrorism will become the best alternative. These countries are jealous of the way we have used our resources. We have taken a desert and made Las Vegas (which is the most decadent place in the world) and yet is a miracle. Anyone who has been there knows this. It is truly amazing how the place was built. We had to build a dam and even the dam is a miracle if you ever saw it you will realize just how impressive and wonderful AMERICA can be. The Middle Eastern countries have not done anything with what they have as land. They do not have the proper medicines because their govts. deny them of this. The Middle East is the way it is because of its leaders. Monster that do not care for human rights, these "men" are greedy and will not stop until they have dominated the world and even then they will continue to ruin each other. The truth is none of these counries can stand up to the US or Britian or Russia but they can really do nasty things with the proper weapons. These countries are not EVIL, their leaders are. These countries are run by MOB bosses except they speak Islamic. I`m not joking here. We are dealing with hoodlums that have nucleur, biological and chemical capablilties, even though they may be small now whats going to stop them from getting the big bomb? The US has the right idea but I just dissagree with the way its being carried out. Craig makes a great point by saying we need to treat the cause and not the symptoms. I`ll second that and add... When the world ends its ignorance towards each other we will stop these randem acts of violence. The leading cause to terrorism is IGNORANCE and the underlying cause of IGNORANCE IS RELIGION. Now I know this is going to strike alot of nerves here with alot of people but religion got us in this mess and no god will get us out. Its time the human race takes responsibility and stops looking to an outside force (which doesn`t exist) for salvation. END RELIGION, END TERRORISM. Ernest

[Anderton]

<> Of course, some people are terrorists. Some people ARE evil and can't be salvaged. BUT it seems that for every bomber, there are hundreds (thousands?) of sympathizers; those are the people who need to be reached. The climate that's created is that these bombers are matyrs, freedom fighters, blah blah blah. IF they were looked upon by the majority of Palestians as trouble-making assholes, they would be marginalized. There would still be bombings, but they would be framed in the context of being isolated incidents, like the Oklahoma City bombing. It's much easier to go back to your life after a disaster if it's a one-shot disaser, and not part of a continuum. My gut feeling is that the *average* Palestinian just wants a job, a family, and a relatively stress-free life, and has no real desire to take over the world or fly planes into buildings. But they've been screwed over many times, especially by their own leaders. These average people are those for whom the "disease" is still treatable. You may not be able to stop the suicide bombers, but the hope is that you CAN stop their support. Without support, the phenomenon would come to end, or at least be marginalized. One other thought: there's mentions in here about the "Palestinians," the "Israelis," etc. These are not monolithic groups. There is great disagreement about what to do among these people; there are conservative people, radicals, etc. Treating these blocs as one mindless entity is like assuming that all blacks are brilliant. combative trumpet players because Miles Davis was. The situation is WAY more complex than anyone realizes, even the combatants.

[Franknputer]

There is a lot of "they did this, so we have to do that" in this conflict - that is what I see as a prevailing characteristic of the Palestine/Israeli conflict; regardless of its roots, that's what it's become - tit for tat. In the "war on terror", we are doing the same thing - "those" people did something bad to "us", so we have to go do nasty to them to tilt the score to the side of "righteousness". Trouble is, we're at war with a great, big, amorphous group of "them", and we can't even agree on who "they" are. We are in real danger of a never-ending cycle here - where does it stop? Killing Hussein? bin Laden? I can't see how killing either one of them, in and of itself, would fix the world. There will still be a massive number of people mad at this country, and more assholes whose names we haven't heard yet ready to entice them into carrying out selfish agendas. (By the way, if you don't think that applies to America as well, you are not paying attention. Free access to governing the nation means that the assholes have just as much a shot to get in as you do.) I agree with a lot of what Craig says - I think that the best way to make ourselves as safe as possible is to do what we can to uplift the entire human race. By improving the lot of those around you, you improve the environment in which you live. It's that simple, really. Educating the kids in the poor neighborhoods means not only that most of them won't try to rob your house, but also that they can make change for a dollar when they wait on you at a restaurant, or the supermarket. Similarly, treating the world's population fairly & with respect means that they would have reason to give pause when presented with the idea that the US is an evil entity with no regard for their lives & well-being. Not to say we should not go after those who are responsible - we should. But, we should also be ready to have our dirty hands shown to us, and be prepared to wash them rather than get angry about being criticized. We should do our very best not to take out innocent people along with the guilty. And, we should strive to do whatever we can to keep situations like this from being set up in the first place. Peace, y'all. (BTW, Ernest - Religion does not have to equal ignorance. The Church does not have control of all the religious scriptures anymore - they are there for everyone to read & figure out for themselves - and such is the will of God, truth be told - so that mankind will see that, at the heart, all of the religions agree.) (PS - "homocide bombers" is a term invented by PR flacks, and kind of a ridiculous one at that. The distinction of whether or not someone killed themselves in the act is why they are called "suicide bombers". If I plant a bomb that kills people & then go home, am I a "homocide bomber"? I think so. This little twist of phrase is designed to belittle the tragedy of the bombers' situation, while trying to underscore the act of murder. IMO, it's a cheap tactic.)

[rold]

That's nice, Guys :wave:

[alfonso]

hello, i would like to ask people like DeluxeReverb if they think that the same toughness they show against palestinians and other suffering peoples should be applied to those who "financially and politically supported" in their early days saddam (against iran), the talibans (against the soviet) the contras (against nicaraguans), and most of the worst butchers of humanity all over the world...for the fable of fighting communism. yeah, iraqi people must thank them for a double gift, first the dictator and then the bombs, and saddam is still there (and i don't think because he won the war...) so, please, if we agree that dictators and terrorists are the monster, will mr. frankenstein ever pay? i sadly think that only civilians all over the world will continue to pay, and seven sisters collect the cash. alfonso

[KenElevenShadows]

quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- america was full of little terrorists 250 years ago. i dont see the palestinians as anything different... -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Really? Where is that Palestinian equivalent of the Declaration of Independence again...unless of course you mean the charter that calls for the complete elimination of Israel? ------- The original quote is a reference to the terrorism that occurred when people started doing things like refusing to pay taxes, dumping tea in the sea, attacking British garrisons, etc., and having our ragtag "militia" (essentially, farmers with guns) hiding behind trees and picking off British troops instead of fighting "honorably" and marching in position against the other army. I believe some parallels can be drawn between what started out, essentially, as terrorism in the U.S. and what is happening now in Palestine. In both cases, the perception was that there was someone oppressing them and treating them unfairly, reason had failed, and they were going to resort to any means available to get the oppressors to leave. Please note that I did say *some* parallels. This is not to mean that I support what ALL Palestinians do, particularly their leaders.

[KenElevenShadows]

You characterized the Palestinian bombers as symptoms of a "disease". I say they are simply murderous reactionary assholes. If all Palestinians are equally afflicted by the "disease" of being "oppressed and humiliated", then how is it that the "disease" creates so relatively few homocide bombers? ----- Not all Palestinians are equally afflicted. Not all Palestinians react the same way to things. Not all Palestinians are murderous reactionary assholes. Some Palestinians live in dingy, dirty refugee camps. Some live in nice houses. Some have had their homes destroyed, forced to resettle at the guns of Israeli soldiers. Some cannot find a job because opportunities are closed off to them. Some hold jobs. Some are mocked and provoked by Israeli soldiers. Some are not. Some have never known a different way of life. Some have. Some are angry. Some are sad. Some are easily provoked to violence, while others preach more tolerant and peaceful ways. Some are angry because the bullets and bombs that kill their mothers and brothers and sisters and neighbors and friends are American bullets. Some are angry because they will never get a fair shake in life and are desperate. A small amount of the population believe that extreme situations demand extreme reactions. Many others believe that more peaceful means and reason is the answer. The one thing that Palestinians have in common is that they are all human, and human beings have different reactions to things, and not all even have the same perception. Why is it that when the British had colonies in the U.S., not everyone dumped tea in the harbor? Not everyone took up arms against the British? I could ask you the same question, couldn't I? Or perhaps I could write off those people as "murderous reactionary assholes" without trying to understand WHY they were doing the things that they were doing. It's easy to write off people as "murderous reactionary assholes" without understanding why they are doing what they do. Do you *think* that if circumstances were happy and fair, they'd be strapping bombs to their chests and blowing up pizza parlors? Do you think this is what young people like to do? Do you honestly feel that, regardless of the oppression, they do this because genetically or otherwise, Palestinians have a high ratio of "murderous reactionary assholes"? Or is it because of something else, such as desperation, rage, hopelessness, sorrow, etc. against an oppressor? I think that all anyone is trying to ask of people here is to try and maintain a balanced viewpoint. Not everything that the Palestinians, Israelis, Arabs, Americans, or any other group of people are doing is always black/white, right/wrong, evil/good, etc. all the time.

[Sudden Light Project]

Well...we can sit around discussing what the world would be like if there was no religion, if there was no racism, hatred, death...whatever. People have been dying for one reason or another all throughout history...can't stop that.... people will continue to die. What is ironic, is that we look at certain ways of dying, and get indignant about it. What it boils down to, is that we wouldn't be discussing this at all, if the US had not been attacked on 9-11. When the Eastern World/Arab community...whatever you wanna call it.. it wasn't Islam...I know too many that were just as appalled as I... committed their acts of death against the US in Sept, they sealed their collective fate with me...They can all go to Hell in a hand basket.. Their intention was not an act of war, but to destroy freedom in our minds. To destroy the symbol of prosperity and free enterprise. Palestinian children die throwing rocks at Isreali Soldiers... .Come on guys...I am supposed to find a reason to justify that?? They don't have anything to live for?? Fuck 'em!! Let them get their asses shot throwing rocks at men with guns... George Bush, "too much of a toughy"? I am glad he kicked the ass that he did...and for all our sakes, I hope he keeps on kicking ass. I would hate to think how Al Gore would have reacted to one of the most heinous acts ever committed against mankind . I consider myself a liberal...but not a Democrat.. I consider some of my views of late as conservative... but I am not a Republican... I am a free thinking American, the determiner ofmy own personal fate.... If the rest of the world hates me for that!!??? Fuck 'em EJ

[alphajerk]

[quote]Originally posted by Elbert James: [b]Their intention was not an act of war, but to destroy freedom in our minds. To destroy the symbol of prosperity and free enterprise.[/b] uh, yes it was... they attacked embassies, no one took notice, they attacked warships, no one noticed... they attacked the WTC BEFORE... no one noticed... our government KNEW something big was on its way... they sat on their asses while 4 jets were hijacked with a 15 minute overlap between hits and over an hour with an attack directed at a HUGE MILITARY TARGET, how is the pentagon NOT a legitimate target? [b]Palestinian children die throwing rocks at Isreali Soldiers... Come on guys...I am supposed to find a reason to justify that?? They don't have anything to live for?? Fuck 'em!! Let them get their asses shot throwing rocks at men with guns...[/b] geez, im not sure what to think of that rationale... they have rocks, shoot them :rolleyes: give me a break, they are fucking KIDS.... CHILDREN. then again, the children who live will eventually get a gun and put a hole in the israelis soldiers forhead as he remembers his friend years back laying there dead on the street. [b]I would hate to think how Al Gore would have reacted to one of the most heinous acts ever committed against mankind.[/b] no, hiroshima and nagasaki were FAR MORE HENIOUS than 15 WTC's combined. japan attacked a military base, we blew up two whole fucking CITIES... LEVELED them. i kinda wish al gore was the president, i wouldnt be so worried that a slew of nuclear missiles are going to be deployed by some idiot with a trigger finger who is nicknamed "the executioner" actually i kinda wish that "other guy" was president so more money would be pushed into alternative fuel sources and the middle east would lose quite a bit of money and power because of the lack of need of a polluting fossil fuel. possibly the drug war ended as well so the cartels would lose all their power, EVERY BIT OF EVIL exists right now as an effect to a cause. [/quote]saw a great bumper sticker today: pot is an herb, bush is a dope

[nursers]

Damn well said Alphajerk. I find it endlessly amusing on these forums how some people are totally black and white on issues, whether it be terrorism or which Mic they like. The only black and white fact is that there are basically no black and white facts - to believe most things are black and white is to display a lack of intellectual development that worries me. Go look at the work of Piaget etc, they did research on stages of development, and from memory most people get out of the concrete operational stage (where everything is black and white) at about age 12. Have we got a few under-12's here? :freak:

[DeluxeReverb]

Lots of good points from all involved. I may need to clarify a few things. First of all, I did not characterize ALL Palestinians as "murderous reactionary assholes", just the terrorists. I believe I stated that most Palestinians are probably peace-loving people. The problem is their extremist faction likes to kill civilians. What about understanding the Israeli's? They have a problem, they are dealing with it as any civilized society would (for the most part)largely using military and political means. The Palestinians have a problem and they deal with it by blowing up Israeli's and breaking every deal they've ever agreed to (and have turned down offers they may never see again). What is Palestine's stated goal in all of this? What is Israel's goal? My goal is to get a Palestinian leader/government that can actually play with the adults in the civilized world. I think there should be a Palestinian state. I think Israel can afford to give back any land it seized after it was attacked by the Arabs in 1967. I think the Jewish settlements on the West Bank and Gaza should become Arab settlements. I don't think bombing innocents is the answer. Arafat apparently does. I don't need to understand the inner thoughts of a terrorist to take a position on the matter. As far as the term suicide bomber vs. homocide bomber, I agree with the PR flack. Suicide as a term does draw sympathy towards the deceased from those who hear it - sympathy they do not deserve. We wonder "what could possibly have caused this otherwise normal person to take their own life?". What caused them to take their own life is a desire to murder Jews. Homocide is murder. If they were simply desperate, they could just kill themselves. That would be a suicide. Argue semantics all you want, I'm not going to give terrorists any sympathy. Alfonso, regarding your "monster" list you somehow left out the homegrown Il Duce...and Ciccolina. ;) Nursers, it's not that I can't see the gray...sometimes it's just not all that helpful when a decision must be made or an action taken. I shudder to think of living in your world of no absolutes. What do you do at stoplights? :p Does seeing the gray mean that sometimes it's perfectly correct to see an issue in black and white, and sometimes not?... Or is the act of "seeing only the gray" in itself a black and white viewpoint? Guess I better ask Piaget...

[Franknputer]

[quote]Originally posted by DeluxeReverb: [b] As far as the term suicide bomber vs. homocide bomber, I agree with the PR flack. Suicide as a term does draw sympathy towards the deceased from those who hear it - sympathy they do not deserve. We wonder "what could possibly have caused this otherwise normal person to take their own life?". What caused them to take their own life is a desire to murder Jews. Homocide is murder. If they were simply desperate, they could just kill themselves. That would be a suicide. Argue semantics all you want, I'm not going to give terrorists any sympathy. [/b][/quote]Glad you're thinking here - now let me point out a couple of things. First off, what is the point in applying PR spin to such a debate? I think that it is an attempt to twist the thought processes of those who are easily swayed by clever phrases (which, to some degree, includes all of us). I also think that our leaders don't have any business playing mind games with us. They are supposed to work for us, not bullshit us. Secondly, I think it is too simplistic to say that the only reason a Palestinian would agree to blow themselves up is a desire to kill Jews. Yet even if it were, it still begs the question "Why do they hate the Jews that much?" Perhaps it has something to do with Israel's constant expansion & occupation of the place they live in? If you squeeze people hard enough & long enough, they will become desparate & commit irrational acts. Morality has nothing to do with it - you can observe the same behavior in animals. Third - these are passionate and - despite what many people believe (not you,necessarily) - intelligent people, not ignorant savages. They have not missed the "Made in the USA" logo stamped on the weapons that Israel use against them. Most of them can make the distinction between a government & its people, as well. Their hatred is directed at the US Government & its policies, while many still enjoy American culture & want to come here - to be here, not to blow it up. Sympathy is not what I would offer to those who would strap on explosives & go downtown. My position is that both sides are to blame for all the death & destruction, as well as the outsiders who play sides against each other for their own personal gains. However, sympathy for those who must go on living every day in that world while others sit comfortably elsewhere & pass judgement on them is the least I can offer. I also offer my prayers that we will all came to our senses & stop killing each other over such senseless things.

[Sudden Light Project]

[quote]Originally posted by alphajerk: geez, im not sure what to think of that rationale... they have rocks, shoot them :rolleyes: give me a break, they are fucking KIDS.... CHILDREN. then again, the children who live will eventually get a gun and put a hole in the israelis soldiers forhead as he remembers his friend years back laying there dead on the street. [/QB][/quote]Stop it Alpha, you're making me cry.... I have 13 year old twin sons... I think they know that throwing rocks at armed, pissed of soldiers would be something akin to stupidity...So don't tell me their just kids... If my child threw a rock at ANYBODY, armed or not, I would snatch a knot in his ass... And don't tell me it would take the memory of their friends lying dead to make them pull the trigger on an Israeli soldier... My point is that the whole thing reeks of ignorance, mingled with hatred... Your assertion that "give me a break,they are fucking kids",has much to do with the whole problem.... Hey, I got it....let's overlook the fact they they are so stupid, they will allow themselves to be killed in an action that will bear them no fruit, because they are kids. The issue is that there is a core group of adults that despise personal freedom, that nurture this sort of action. If THEY weren't so wrapped up in their own stupidity, I think it would make more sense to help these children grow into adults so they could do some real damage... I have long drop the cosmic idealism that we can all get along.... It ain't gonna happen.... So instead of trying to find some deep rooted logic for the actions of ignorance....I suggest you cover your six EJ.... Just a regular guy, who doesn't pretend to be bigger than anybody

[DeluxeReverb]

Lots of good points from all involved. I may need to clarify a few things. First of all, I did not characterize ALL Palestinians as "murderous reactionary assholes", just the terrorists. I believe I stated that most Palestinians are probably peace-loving people. The problem is their extremist faction likes to kill civilians. What about understanding the Israeli's? They have a problem, they are dealing with it as any civilized society would (for the most part)largely using military and political means. The Palestinians have a problem and they deal with it by blowing up Israeli's and breaking every deal they've ever agreed to (and have turned down offers they may never see again). What is Palestine's stated goal in all of this? What is Israel's goal? My goal is to get a Palestinian leader/government that can actually play with the adults in the civilized world. I think there should be a Palestinian state. I think Israel can afford to give back any land it seized after it was attacked by the Arabs in 1967. I think the Jewish settlements on the West Bank and Gaza should become Arab settlements. I don't think bombing innocents is the answer. Arafat apparently does. I don't need to understand the inner thoughts of a terrorist to take a position on the matter. As far as the term suicide bomber vs. homocide bomber, I agree with the PR flack. Suicide as a term does draw sympathy towards the deceased from those who hear it - sympathy they do not deserve. We wonder "what could possibly have caused this otherwise normal person to take their own life?". What caused them to take their own life is a desire to murder Jews. Homocide is murder. If they were simply desperate, they could just kill themselves. That would be a suicide. Argue semantics all you want, I'm not going to give terrorists any sympathy. Alfonso, regarding your "monster" list you somehow left out the homegrown Il Duce...and Ciccolina. ;) Nursers, it's not that I can't see the gray...sometimes it's just not all that helpful when a decision must be made or an action taken. I shudder to think of living in your world of no absolutes. What do you do at stoplights? :p Does seeing the gray mean that sometimes it's perfectly correct to see an issue in black and white, and sometimes not?... Or is the act of "seeing only the gray" in itself a black and white viewpoint? Guess I better ask Piaget...

[Sudden Light Project]

[quote]Originally posted by nursers: The only black and white fact is that there are basically no black and white facts - to believe most things are black and white is to display a lack of intellectual development that worries me. Go look at the work of Piaget etc, they did research on stages of development, and from memory most people get out of the concrete operational stage (where everything is black and white) at about age 12. Have we got a few under-12's here? [/QB][/quote]That's ok, Nurser, I understand your position... In an attempt to seek enlightenment, we tend to flock to ideas and concepts that appear confident, and explain actions we don't understand What I find ironic, is that you seem to have abandoned the platform of identifying and defining behavoir that is not like your own, long enough (and conveniently enough) to try to insult me with the "12 year old" comment.. Don't get me wrong, I am all about empathy, but there are two sides to the coin.... I don't really like to be in this sort of "debate", for the simple fact that I learned many, many years ago, that it is all just one person's opinion against someone elses opinion... and if your "opinion" lacks empirical knowledge, nothin is ever gained from it... But I felt I had as much right as anyone else here to state my feelings on this subject... I have probably generated as much goodwill, and have forgiven as much evil, as anyone else on this board.... So...that said...all is forgiven (see?), and I will now go back to the business of music, and let the world deal with itself.... EJ

[Nawledge]

DeluxeReverb:George Washington was a terrorist? The Minutemen were terrorists? The Continental Army were terrorists? How many civilian British/Crown sympathizers were killed by these terrorists in civilian-targeted terrorist acts during the War of Independence? Yassir Arafat and the PLO = Washington, Jefferson, Madison, Franklin, Hancock, Paine, Hamilton et. al.? Nope -------------------------------------------------- yes they were. and it sucks that after all this time I still have to slave for them because there monstrous faces are on the dollar bills that I spend, hows that for an psychological a_s kicking?

[Nawledge]

Elbert James: I have long drop the cosmic idealism that we can all get along.... It ain't gonna happen.... So instead of trying to find some deep rooted logic for the actions of ignorance....I suggest you cover your six EJ.... Just a regular guy, who doesn't pretend to be bigger than anybody ------------------------------------------------- Elbert, i'm sorry to read that, I don't know how to say this in a way that doesn't offend, but by all means I'm not trying to offend you or single you out, it's the train of thought in your statements. Unity is not cosmic idealism, and if thats what you think of people getting along then your children would probably not like my children for me that's a sad notion and they would probably grow up contributing in the least passively to the problems of the world instead of the solutions by thinking that it's only necessary to cover their six and considering themselves unattatched, like your statement "I will now go back to the business of music, and let the world deal with itself...." as corny as it sounds we are the world, whether we like it or not we are all connected to and affecting one another. I'm not into philosphy and it always amazes me when i hear someone imply that the notion of peace, unity, and working together is some sort of utopian philosophy. to me it's simple logic and common sense. I think we should actually strive to get along, it will make our lives better. we will have less war, poverty, and death if we work together, thats not philosophy thats fact. anyway i'm not judging you and please forgive me if i wasn't able to find the right words to express what i'm trying to convey, it was just that those statements promote a lesser world. as to who's right or wrong, I think we are all fucked up, but I don't think the pales would blow themselves up if they had the same military might as israel, i'm sure they would use tanks, planes, and superGuns, and i believe the tragic reason they attack civillians is because they can't get as close to israels millitary institutions as they can their pizza parlors. I think they are fighting a battle they know they can't when and the most extreme of them are a frustrated people who just want to hurt anything israel/ american. just like Its so easy to just hate anything white, or anything black in this country, hate is easily learned and there are alot of people teaching it and alot of people eating it up, it's the leading doctrine of the day thats why you see those kids saying they want to be bin laden or saddam. you can't opress people and expect them not to harbor ill feelings toward you, and expect those ill feelings not to filter down to there youth growing up in that opression. thats a no brainer.

[alphajerk]

[quote]Originally posted by Elbert James: [b]Stop it Alpha, you're making me cry.... I have 13 year old twin sons... I think they know that throwing rocks at armed, pissed of soldiers would be something akin to stupidity...So don't tell me their just kids...[/b][/quote]kids do NOT possess the intellect to decipher right from wrong, adults do... or at least SHOULD be able to. the israeli soldiers are ADULTS with WEAPONS... the palestinian kids are KIDS with ROCKS. these soldiers need to ACT like adults, and so do their leaders... this is the most childish this world has acted in a LONG time. i guess thats what you get when you put a dipshit in charge of the biggest superpower... kinda like having a substitue teacher in grade school. the world is acting out right now and is getting away with it. its OBVIOUS NO ONE respects dubya.

[Sudden Light Project]

Nawledge, without going back and commenting on all you said, let me just say that, I am not opposed to getting along with all people. Admitting that the world will never "get along", doesn't mean I have given up on humanity...it's just a fact I have faced.....and I didn't mean the community... I don't teach my children to ignore the pleas of help from others. I don't allow hatred, prejudism, or condemnation in my home. I don't allow ignorance in my home either, and that is what my comments are aimed at.....this is nothing more than ignorance, and the total lack of respect for others ....and human life. I agree that getting along with people is common sense But Naw....a lot of people don't want that....and we have to face THAT fact... I am not saying the US is right and everybody else is wrong....killing is wrong...I don't care who does it.....or why Now we have a common enemy, who wants nothing more than to destroy civilization ...and for ANYONE to say we brought 911 on ourselves is absolutely assinine... How did it make you feel to see the masses of people celebrating in the streets when the towers came down?..... I only wanted them to understand that I don't hate them. That I would never harm them...or their children...but THEY don't care about their own children Do you think they care about world peace and harmony? Do you think Bin Laden has stopped planning the total destruction of Western civilization? They have basically oppressed themselves with a 9th century mentality Women and children have no rights.....and we are supposed to accept that? Iran of the '70s was a thriving world community that islamic purist removed from the world scene..are we supposed to accept that as a fault of the US? I don't want my kids to live in fear...but I will not have them cowering in the corner either because this whole thing can be explained in terms to satisfy pacifists I haven't given up on mankind...and in no way have you insulted me... Your statements were in the form of a discussion, and not intended to belittle or disgrace.... And that is a lesson others can learn from you... Thanks Naw EJ

[Mark V]

Craig may have a point about trying to do something about the core of the problem rather than the symptom.But when you here about all the innocent children dying in Iraq due to lack of proper medical recources [brought about by UN sanctions?]Yet I watched on TV a Palistinian family of a suicide bomber receive $10,000 {US dollars,now there's an irony} and a nice framed certificate from the government of Iraq.Apparently all families of suicide bombers get this "gift". There's a pretty good excuse to dislike Saddam on its own.

[Nawledge]

cool EJ, and thanks for hearing me out, i'm listening to you too. I agree with you ,about people who just don't want peace, and would rather hate others, we really need to find a way to distinguish between those that are being disinfranchised and those that are using the situation for their own evil devices. the world is definely caught between a rock and a hard place. even those that we depend on to do what's right at the government level are obviously short on good intentions, the terrible thing is that we put them in office, with our money and lack of concern. we are moving so fast that we really don't want to be bothered and just throw everything into the hands of these evil people who are all to willing and ready to take it. Imho, Arafat doesn't really want to do whats right unless he has no other choice, and Sheron seems like he would like to take this opportunity to hurt as many palestines as possible, his hatred has run deep for quite some time, and then theres america. and sometimes it's like theres more than one america because the americans on this thread wouldn't be sleeping with people like sadam just when it serves their purpose, propping him up and then calling him a great evil, and it seems like in every country that we've ever had a problem with there are weapons with made in the usa stamped on them. Everyone, and I mean everyone knows that america is the most powerful country in the world, I wonder just how much dirt we have our hands in. if we knew we would probably want to move. so who can we really trust...Canada...

[nursers]

Deluxereverb: yes, I actually do stop at traffic lights if the light is red :) Maybe I was too black and white in stating nothing was black and white - what I meant was that in issues such as this, euthanasia, abortion etc etc etc that there is no one right answer. :freak:

[alphajerk]

[quote]Originally posted by nursers: [b]what I meant was that in issues such as this, euthanasia, abortion etc etc etc that there is no one right answer. :freak: [/b][/quote]yes there is, the personal right for ones self to decide.

[alfonso]

hei deluxe, i totally agree with you about the "duce", about cicciolina... she's not the monster, the real monster is what's in the mind of those who voted for her in italy, just to say nothing about those who replace real sex with surrogates. if you think that i could be so stupid to be nationalist, well, i can say that actully we are growing in italy some new monsters, like berlusconism, passive admiration of the worst of the american way of life (forgetting the best), conformism and a growing unpoliteness. i only think that we could live in a much better world if we end to "believe" and start to "think". but too many feel lost and too little in their own, and need to belong to something "big". and this is the first step to divide world in "us"(better) and "them"(worst), and when this is happening everywhere.....bang! nationalism is like vanity, is the way to fill an emptyness inside, and...it makes me remember other monsters that grow on that, like le pen, kkk, weapon producers and traders, exclusive gods, and believe me, in europe situation is not better than in the usa. if i followed the music career, despite i have a full votes with h. degree in politics, is just because i saw in music what politicians are very far from, i saw blacks, whites, asian, serbian,israeli and muslims playing music together and being happy, acting simply as "humans". who could call himself a "musician" and remain emotionless listening to the pure beauty of persian scales, blues, palestinian darabouk grooves, balcanic clarinet, shakuhachi calls, banjo arpeggios, cajun, irish reels....the list is too long. how can peoples that produce such marvels be hated or considered like they are wrong and opposed to others that are right? they are all dominated by some few bastards, the same percentage in all the nations, those that see the business compatibility as the only quality for music, women and men, landscapes etc., and believe me, they are all allied (remember yalta), they collaborate, letting us think they defend us. peace, alfonso.

[Dogfur]

[quote]Originally posted by Elbert James: Now we have a common enemy, who wants nothing more than to destroy civilization ...and for ANYONE to say we brought 911 on ourselves is absolutely assinine... [/quote]Here is a different point of view that is not assinine: http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/042202_bushknows.html :cry: :cry: :cry:

[KenElevenShadows]

"But when you here about all the innocent children dying in Iraq due to lack of proper medical recources [brought about by UN sanctions?]Yet I watched on TV a Palistinian family of a suicide bomber receive $10,000 {US dollars,now there's an irony} and a nice framed certificate from the government of Iraq.Apparently all families of suicide bombers get this "gift". There's a pretty good excuse to dislike Saddam on its own." ------------ There's no question that Saddam's despicable. I honestly felt that the U.S. troops should have taken him out in the Gulf War. All the same, I think that more people -- including our government -- should bear in mind WHY Saddam is in power even as they want to eliminate him. http://www.muslimedia.com/archives/features98/saddam.htm http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/saddam/etc/synopsis.html http://www.twf.org/News/Y1998/19981124-WildMen.html http://www.mises.org/fullstory.asp?control=818 http://www.fsmitha.com/h2/ch36.htm

[KenElevenShadows]

Elbert James wrote, "When the Eastern World/Arab community...whatever you wanna call it.. it wasn't Islam...I know too many that were just as appalled as I... committed their acts of death against the US in Sept, they sealed their collective fate with me...They can all go to Hell in a hand basket.." --------- Yeow!! So you're saying, "Because a few commit terrorist acts, they can all go to Hell?" That's a thought pattern frighteningly similar to terrorists.

[Chip McDonald]

[quote]Originally posted by Elbert James: [b] Palestinian children die throwing rocks at Isreali Soldiers... .Come on guys...I am supposed to find a reason to justify that?? They don't have anything to live for?? Fuck 'em!! Let them get their asses shot throwing rocks at men with guns... [/b][/quote]On your planet, does everyone buy their gun rack for their F-150 at Walmart?

[Dan South]

Ken - Thanks for the links - very enlightening!

[Chip McDonald]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Elbert James: [b]If my child threw a rock at ANYBODY, armed or not, I would snatch a knot in his ass...[/b][/quote What if they were throwing rocks at people that may have killed you, or your wife, sister or brother...? [b]Hey, I got it....let's overlook the fact they they are so stupid, they will allow themselves to be killed in an action that will bear them no fruit, because they are kids.[/b] Man, you're ... I can't find words, that's a unique thing. A) *Why* are they throwing the rocks? B)*What* makes it excusable to kill kids just because they throw rocks? A has a lot to do with B.... [b]I have long drop the cosmic idealism that we can all get along.... It ain't gonna happen....[/b] BS. There's been periods of calm throughout. JUST NOT DURING THIS ADMINISTRATION, the U.S. or Israel's....