horus28 Posted April 22, 2002 Share Posted April 22, 2002 Dear friends, Can someone tell me what hard disk recorder do you recommend? The Yamaha AW4416, the Roland VS-1824, the Roland VS-2480,or the Akai DPS24?? What is the best on the market, please do not be effected by the price, just give me your opinion of what is the best recorder for you. Thanks alot Horus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philip OKeefe Posted April 23, 2002 Share Posted April 23, 2002 I still have not used the Akai, but I prefer the Yamaha AW4416 over the Roland VS2480, based on sonics. The Roland has better onboard editing capabilities, but I prefer the uncompressed audio of the AW... I also prefer the converters on the Yamaha. Yes, you can get 24 tracks, or 96 KHz (not both at the same time) on the Roland, but not without using data compression... If you want more than 16 tracks, I'd suggest getting TWO AW4416's and locking them together. You get 32 tracks, and since AW4416's are going for around $2,200 these days, you can get a pair of them for not much more than the single VS2480, and certainly for less than the Akai will cost. I've got two of them, and have written a step by step article on locking them / cascading them together... you can check it out over in the FAQ section at http://www.socialentropy.com/aw4416 I've been very very happy with my dual Yamaha AW4416 setup... add a computer DAW for editing (which the AW's hardware faders can control!) and you get the best of both worlds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philip OKeefe Posted April 23, 2002 Share Posted April 23, 2002 BTW, all three are great units and are capable of outstanding results in the right hands... I'd suggest checking them all out and deciding which features and sonics work best for you... What type of music are you doing and what other gear do you have? What features are important to you - ie, what do you want to be able to do? Knowing that may help others make a better recommendation for you... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
horus28 Posted April 23, 2002 Author Share Posted April 23, 2002 Thanks Phil, I didn't know that the ROLAND uses compression. I dont really like that much, i had a very bad experience with a TASCAM 586 MD recorder. It uses compression on Mini Data Discs and the result...after few bounces it losses the sonic quality. Cheers !! Oh! my type of music that i play and record is heavy metal/rock. I thing the Yamaha 4416 is one of the best out there. So how do you use the computer for editing? You first record on the AW and then transfer the track to the computer? HOW? BTW, can you please tell me how can you make a good headphone mix on the AW during for e.g. a vocal take? Thanks alot Horus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crimean Posted April 23, 2002 Share Posted April 23, 2002 Phil, What are your thoughts on syncing an AW4416 and a computer Sound Card? For instance; I have an M-Audio Delta 10/10, and by using that, and a good recording program, the track expansion would only be limited by the computer's capability + 16. Crimean Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RABid Posted April 23, 2002 Share Posted April 23, 2002 You could always go Microsoft/Intel-AMD/Segate/Oneofmanymultichannelsoundinterface. Robert This post edited for speling. My Sweetwater Gear Exchange Page Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philip OKeefe Posted April 23, 2002 Share Posted April 23, 2002 [quote]Originally posted by horus28: [b]Thanks Phil,[/b] You're welcome! [b] (SNIP) Oh! my type of music that i play and record is heavy metal/rock. [/b] You probably don't need to do a lot of editing then... IMO, for that style of music, the AW is near to ideal... the Roland might be a better choice if you do lots of "groove" oriented / loop based stuff and plan on extensive cut copy paste editing. [b]I thing the Yamaha 4416 is one of the best out there. So how do you use the computer for editing? You first record on the AW and then transfer the track to the computer? HOW?[/b] Yes, that's my usual approach. If you check out that article I wrote over on the [url=http://www.socialentropy.om/aw4416]www.socialentropy.com/aw4416[/url] website, it describes how to lock up and cascade two AW4416's together... and conceptually, locking up a computer (with MTC and MMC) is basically the same thing. I actually have both AW's and a Digidesign Digi 001 Pro Tools rig locked together all at once, and I transfer out of the AW's into Pro Tools via (optional) lightpipe cards, and then edit / process and either fly them back into the AW's or just PLAY them into the AW's via the lightpipe at mixdown... [b]BTW, can you please tell me how can you make a good headphone mix on the AW during for e.g. a vocal take?[/b] The AW4416 has a total of 8 aux sends, two internal effects processors (assuming you don't have a Waves Y56K card, which I do...) and four "omni" outputs. Since there's two internal effects, you'd normally use two aux sends for that - the AW assigns aux 7/8 for that purpose, leaving aux 1-6 "free". I normally use aux 1-4 with the omni outputs 1-4 (makes sense since they use the same "numbers" aux 1 = Omni out 1, aux two = Omni out 2, etc.) and I use aux 5/6, set as "pre fader" for my headphone mix. I send these out my main analog stereo outputs, into a little Rolls box that allows me to add a dedicated "talkback" mic to the output, out from that into a power amp and then into a Simon Systems headphone distribution system. Any headphone amp you want to use will work fine here. What about my mixdowns? Where do THEY go if I'm using the main stereo outs? Well, you COULD use the internal "stereo" track (which is in addition to the 16 "main" tracks), but I use the DIGITAL out, which is seperately assignable from the main analog out, and feed that into my Tascam US-428 and then into my computer, which is what I normally use for recording my mixdowns. Sometimes I'll use my Otari 2 track, but I won't get into the details of that right now... How do I hear what I'm doing? There's a seperately assignable set of "monitor" outputs... they go to my power amp, and then into my speakers... soon they'll be going into a switch, then either to the current amp / monitor setup or into my new ADAM monitors. :D Most likely, that switch will be set with the signal routed to the ADAM's nearly all the time... once you've heard those, it's hard to settle for anything else! [b]Thanks alot[/b] No problem Horus! Hope this helped. Let me know if you have any other questions. [/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philip OKeefe Posted April 23, 2002 Share Posted April 23, 2002 [quote]Originally posted by Crimean: [b]Phil, What are your thoughts on syncing an AW4416 and a computer Sound Card? For instance; I have an M-Audio Delta 10/10, and by using that, and a good recording program, the track expansion would only be limited by the computer's capability + 16. Crimean[/b][/quote]I do this every day - I have a Digi 001 locked up to the two AW4416's at all times. True, it only gives me 24 computer tracks max, but it uses the Pro Tools software, which I find to be the most powerful (at least for my personal preferences and preferred way of working) for audio editing... I really don't use more than 24 computer tracks most of the time, since I have 32 tracks available on the dual AW4416's. For MIDI, I normally use Logic Platinum, which I've been using since the day it came out (and C-Lab Notator, it's predecessor program, since 1988). I also use Sonar, which is a very powerful program, and IMO, much better than the earlier Cakewalk products. Logic can use the Digidesign hardware, and either program can do more than 24 tracks - they're only limited by CPU power, and I've got a pretty fast system (Athlon XP 1800). I used to use a Frontier Design Dakota / Montana card setup with the dual AW4416's, and it worked great for me. I don't have your particular card, but it should work fine as well. You can track on the AW. Since it's portable, take it to the gig, or to a friend's house (where the great sounding piano is) and then take it back to your place, edit on the computer, fly some tracks back into the AW's hard disk, use the AW's faders to control your DAW software faders (if your software supports MIDI CC), use the AW's onboard effects, EQ and dynamics processors to take some of the "load" off your computer CPU, use the AW for mixing internal (16) tracks and up to 24 external tracks / sources coming into the mixer... it's a very powerful setup! Best wishes, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crimean Posted April 23, 2002 Share Posted April 23, 2002 Phil, It's great to hear some real-life experience with the AW4416 that you always seem to provide. Thanks again! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
horus28 Posted April 23, 2002 Author Share Posted April 23, 2002 Hi Phil, So to make a headphone mix you can use the OMNI outs? I think you have to use two omni outs to make it stereo, right? In order to make the headphone mix stereo, Can you assign "even" track numbers to AUX 5 and "Odd" track numbers to AUX 6. Therefore AUX 5 to OMNI 1 and AUX 6 to OMNI 2. And then? you need something else? You said "I normally use aux 1-4 with the omni outputs 1-4 (makes sense since they use the same "numbers" aux 1 = Omni out 1, aux two = Omni out 2, etc.) and I use aux 5/6, set as "pre fader" for my headphone mix. I send these out my main analog stereo outputs, into a little Rolls box that allows me to add a dedicated "talkback" mic to the output, out from that into a power amp and then into a Simon Systems headphone distribution system", can you re-explain this part please? If you set Prefader you still can have volume control on every channel for the headphone mix? how? PS: I have a sound blaster live value but it does not have an SPDIF in/out. However i can add a daughter card to it with SPDIF in/outs. Is this enough to transfer the data from the AW to the Computer? Thanks alot Phil Horus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wewus432 Posted April 23, 2002 Share Posted April 23, 2002 OK you guys break it up. I'd like throw my vote in for the Yamaha AW. That is a fine piece of equipment, mixer based on the legendary O2R. I would give my right nut to have one of those, or it would probably be easier just to buy one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vintagevibe Posted April 23, 2002 Share Posted April 23, 2002 The Roland 2480 is by far the more comprehensive when it comes to mixing and editing. It can handel many more simultanious effects (when fully loaded), has mouse, keyboard and vga monitor support and of course it is 24 track. I have to sigh every time I hear people talk about Roland compression. I have owned 2 Roland VStudios and if you can notice any difference at all in compressed and uncompressed tracks (and that's a big if) the COMPRESSED TRACKS SOUND SLIGHTLY BETTER! Also Roland has many other options, Mic and Speaker modeling, Guitar Amp Modeling (very usable) and the longest history in this market and therefore the most mature product. For these reasons I thing the 2480 is by far the best all in one studio on the Market. Having said that the soon-to-hit-the-streets new Akai looks insteresting. Don't think they're in the stores yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
horus28 Posted April 23, 2002 Author Share Posted April 23, 2002 Any one else want to comment about the ROLAND, YAMAHA and AKAI recorders? It seems that there is the first round between YAMAHA and ROLAND....any suggestions? Hi Phil i would appreciate it if you could answer my questions, posted on the 04-23-2002 09:26 AM Thank you, Cheers!! Thanks guys Horus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
horus28 Posted April 24, 2002 Author Share Posted April 24, 2002 hi there, Correct me if i'm wrong. The Roland VS2480 does not have INSERT jacks, therefore this makes this machine limited to the onboard effects and dynamics. Cheers Horus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philip OKeefe Posted April 24, 2002 Share Posted April 24, 2002 [quote]Originally posted by horus28: [b]Hi Phil, So to make a headphone mix you can use the OMNI outs? I think you have to use two omni outs to make it stereo, right?[/b] You CAN use omni outs, but I don't - I use the main Stereo out. But yes, you're correct - you'd have to use two omni outs for stereo headphone sends. ALL the outputs are "assignable" in the AW4416. You can route any track, or any aux to ANY output. Again, you CAN use the omni outs, but I don't. For my setup, I prefer the way I described it in the earlier post. [b]In order to make the headphone mix stereo, Can you assign "even" track numbers to AUX 5 and "Odd" track numbers to AUX 6. Therefore AUX 5 to OMNI 1 and AUX 6 to OMNI 2. And then? you need something else?[/b] You can assign ANY track to ANY and / or ALL aux sends. [b]You said "I normally use aux 1-4 with the omni outputs 1-4 (makes sense since they use the same "numbers" aux 1 = Omni out 1, aux two = Omni out 2, etc.) and I use aux 5/6, set as "pre fader" for my headphone mix. I send these out my main analog stereo outputs, into a little Rolls box that allows me to add a dedicated "talkback" mic to the output, out from that into a power amp and then into a Simon Systems headphone distribution system", can you re-explain this part please?[/b] I normally use omni outs 1-4 for EFFECTS sends using aux 1-4, and aux 5/6 (set as pre fader sends - you can configure all aux sends as pre or post fader) as headphone sends, routed out the main stereo outputs. [b]If you set Prefader you still can have volume control on every channel for the headphone mix? how?[/b] Every aux send can be level adjusted for each and every mixer channel... you hit the button for "aux 1" and all the faders "go" to the levels you have set for aux 1 for each "layer" of the board (inputs 1-16, 17-24 and recorder playback monitor channels). Want to see what the aux 1 send levels are for recorder playback channels? hit "aux 1" and then recorder "moni"... want to check what the aux 1 send levels are for mixer inputs 1-16? Just hit "input 1-16"... [b]PS: I have a sound blaster live value but it does not have an SPDIF in/out. However i can add a daughter card to it with SPDIF in/outs. Is this enough to transfer the data from the AW to the Computer?[/b] Yes, for "flying" tracks over to the computer for editing, this will work as long as you also have a MIDI interface. For just sending your final mix into the computer (where you aren't worried about synchronizing the computer and AW4416 with time code) then you don't even need the MIDI interface. For flying / editing, you'll only be able to transfer two tracks in each "pass", but it will work. I'd suggest a better sound card though - I recommend the RME Hammerfall and Frontier Design cards... [b]Thanks alot Phil[/b] You're welcome. I hope this made it clearer. [/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philip OKeefe Posted April 24, 2002 Share Posted April 24, 2002 [quote]Originally posted by dino321: [b]The Roland 2480 is by far the more comprehensive when it comes to mixing and editing.[/b] Editing yes, mixing, sorry, but nope. [b] It can handel many more simultanious effects (when fully loaded),[/b] Depends on what you consider "fully loaded". You don't have a Waves Y56K card available, which, quite frankly, sonically smokes any of the Roland effects, and offers up to 8 CHAINS of effects (in addition to the two "stock" Yamaha processors). [b] has mouse[/b] So does the AW4416 [b]keyboard and vga monitor support[/b] Very cool, I will agree. :) [b] and of course it is 24 track.[/b] WITH data compression, and at 24/48. Go 96 KHz and the track count drops. Go sans data compression, and 16 tracks is the max at 24/48 - same as the AW4416. [b]I have to sigh every time I hear people talk about Roland compression. I have owned 2 Roland VStudios and if you can notice any difference at all in compressed and uncompressed tracks (and that's a big if) the COMPRESSED TRACKS SOUND SLIGHTLY BETTER![/b] Maybe to you. Personally, I CAN hear it (heck, I could hear it even when compared to blackface ADAT's in a double blind test - every time), and I can't stand it. Grainy and gritty is how I'd describe it. Obviously, your mileage is different, but I know for a fact that I'm not the only one who shares this opinion. Maybe the reason you hear people talk about it so often is because a lot of people can hear it and don't like it? :) Oh, and it's cumulative - try bouncing some tracks around a couple of times and watch / listen to what happens... [b]Also Roland has many other options, Mic and Speaker modeling,[/b] I personally prefer real mics and real speakers. I've got a set of ADAM's on the way (I pick them up on Thursday) and a rather nice mic locker - but I'll admit that these can be nice for those who don't... The AW's options are things like plug in effects cards from Waves, A/D and D/A cards from Apogee, etc. A little bit more "upscale" if you ask me. [b] Guitar Amp Modeling (very usable)[/b] The AW has that too, but IMO, it's not much to write home about. Personally, I prefer Amp Farm, BF's Sans Amp plug in or even a POD over either the VS or AW's amp models - although I'd definitely agree that the VS models sound better than the AW's. [b] and the longest history in this market and therefore the most mature product.[/b] Hmmmm.... depends on how you want to look at it. Certainly Roland "invented" the "studio in a box" concept (actually, Tascam probably REALLY deserves the nod for that, but those were analog units), but I'd hardly call the 02R anything BUT "mature". And if the AW4416 is anything, it IS basically an 02R, with better converters, shorter faders (60mm instead of 100mm - same as the Roland), better effects, two fewer card slots and a 16 track, 24 bit HDR and a CD-RW thrown in, etc. Functionally, it works and operates nearly identical to the 02R, which was really the FIRST project studio digital mixer to bring pro level performance to the masses. Roland has made NOTHING that comes close mixer wise in terms of performance and impact and industry acceptance, and since the AW's a spin off of the circa 1995-96 02R, it's not really a completely "new" product. [b] For these reasons I thing the 2480 is by far the best all in one studio on the Market.[/b] In your opinion. Mine differs. Certainly the Roland is a nice product, and is very capable, and has a lot of nice features, but I prefer the overall feature set, much lower price, easier expanability and most importantly , SONICS of the AW4416. YMMV. [b] Having said that the soon-to-hit-the-streets new Akai looks insteresting. Don't think they're in the stores yet.[/b] No, I have not seen them yet either. They do look interesting though... but with a list of over $5K? :eek: I think I'll stick with my dual AW's for the time being and wait to see when Yamaha comes out with a spin off of the new 02R96 or DM2000 boards for the "studio in a box" market. :D [/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
horus28 Posted April 24, 2002 Author Share Posted April 24, 2002 Hi there, TITLE: Buying a HD recorder Do you think that the best thing is to WAIT for YAMAHA to release new gears that may beat the AW4416 before buying the AW and then you will regret it because a new more powerful substitute is released? :confused: What i would like to add here is that the AW4416 is more that 1 and a half years old and I'm suspecting that a new yamaha HD recorder (Maybe more powerful) is on it's way. What do you think people? Cheers!! Horus ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nawledge Posted April 24, 2002 Share Posted April 24, 2002 thats a tough one Horus28 because I had a vs1680 and it sounded great, even when not using the highest quality, I do hiphop and folk, but i've recorded rock along the lines of fugazi and soul and r&b too with very good results. in my opinion the vs2480 is a very recorder and the editing can't be beat, you might think you won't use it but if you have it you'll use it. you're doing heavey metal/rock, i think the compression factor is very low in this case, and like someone mentioned earlier it's often said that rolands sounds better, it's a different animal alltogether than that minidisc thing you had so don't let that color your judgement. on the other hand. I am a student of Phils, that he didn't know he had, at a school he didn't know existed, that i go to every day, to learn from him what he didn't know he was teaching me... because of that I would have to say order them both from musicans friend and try them out for 45days, after that send one back. :thu: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt.Hepworth Posted April 24, 2002 Share Posted April 24, 2002 [quote]Originally posted by dino321: [b]The Roland 2480 is by far the more comprehensive when it comes to mixing and editing. It can handel many more simultanious effects (when fully loaded), has mouse, keyboard and vga monitor support and of course it is 24 track. I have to sigh every time I hear people talk about Roland compression. I have owned 2 Roland VStudios and if you can notice any difference at all in compressed and uncompressed tracks (and that's a big if) the COMPRESSED TRACKS SOUND SLIGHTLY BETTER! Also Roland has many other options, Mic and Speaker modeling, Guitar Amp Modeling (very usable) and the longest history in this market and therefore the most mature product. For these reasons I thing the 2480 is by far the best all in one studio on the Market. Having said that the soon-to-hit-the-streets new Akai looks insteresting. Don't think they're in the stores yet.[/b][/quote]I am sort of a Roland fan and Phil and I usually bump heads with these two units. Anyway, there is a sound difference between MTP and MAS modes. MAS is a good step better. The 2480 has better converters and much better preamps than previous models and compared to the Yamaha converters, franky, I like them both. Yamaha maybe a tiny bit of an edge in HF detail. The best thing about the Roland (besides editing w/VGA) is that it can record a whole band at once. With the Yamaha, you have to buy an ADAT card ($300) and a Presonus 8 ch pre ($1200). Waves card is awesome, but spendy also. See what suits the need and buy accordingly. No matter how good something is, there will always be someone blasting away on a forum somewhere about how much they hate it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
horus28 Posted April 25, 2002 Author Share Posted April 25, 2002 Hi What about the insert jacks? Unlike the Yamaha and Akai, the Roland VS-2480 does not have inserts. This makes the machine very limited to. Cannot connect to dynamic (EQ, comp)outboards. C U Horus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philip OKeefe Posted April 25, 2002 Share Posted April 25, 2002 [quote]Originally posted by Nawledge: [b] on the other hand. I am a student of Phils, that he didn't know he had, at a school he didn't know existed, that i go to every day, to learn from him what he didn't know he was teaching me... [/b][/quote]:confused: :confused: :confused: ROTFLMHO Though! :wave: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nawledge Posted April 25, 2002 Share Posted April 25, 2002 :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
horus28 Posted April 26, 2002 Author Share Posted April 26, 2002 :D :D :D :D :D :D :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
horus28 Posted April 29, 2002 Author Share Posted April 29, 2002 Hi People, Anyone has ever used the AKAI DPS24 Hard disk recorder? Thanks :) Horus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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