article: Alice In Chains Singer Layne Staley Presumed Dead?

[rickpowell]

[quote]Originally posted by Chip McDonald: [b] [quote]Originally posted by rickpowell: [b] [quote]Originally posted by Chip McDonald: [b] The rockstar is culpable for the entourage? That's a new one...[/b][/quote]Not culpable...just caring. RP[/b][/quote]It's "caring" if, in the case of your multi-platinum artist that the artist is mentally sane, financially well off, and ABLE to do so. It is NOT the responsibility of the artist to support the people that have worked for them indefinitely to the point that they feel killing themselves is a solution. That's absurd, not "caring". Layne Staley killed himself because he couldn't figure out a way to support his entourage??? I *hope* that's not why he killed himself (and I'm sure it isn't).[/b][/quote]OK, I'm going to try this again. I think there is a lack of understanding of my point here. But the way you put it is not too far off the mark. Have you ever heard of someone killing themself because they were in a marriage they felt "trapped" in? I agree with your choice of the word "absurd" when someone self-destructs because of the perceived pressure of the demands placed on them. But there is a line that is crossed there. On the other side of that line, there are the relationships that are similar to a marriage within the context of a band. The relationship with the fans (especially if you are loyal to them and they to you), the other members of the band, the tour support people, etc. There's a lot of people who depend on you to a certain extent and have certain hopes and expectations. Mix the above in with drugs, and it's not surprising that there would be someone who might feel "trapped" in a similar manner. And even though "divorce" might be the better option, the person feels that there is so much they owe to others and no way to pay it back, they decide to check out instead. No, I don't know what was going on inside Layne's head. But you assumed that my perspective, based on my wife's uncle's experience, was based on a situation far removed from Layne's. I'm here to tell you it was a lot more similar than you might think. Except, unlike Layne, he lived to walk away from it all, platinum records, Grammy nominations, fan adulation, $ and all. I'm talking a total 180. Done. But it wasn't easy, especially because of the perceived burden of those interpersonal relationships...that's all I'm saying. RP

[Henchman]

[quote]Originally posted by rickpowell: [b]A successful person in the music business has an entourage of people who depend on him/her. Any career decision like "cashing out" has repercussions up and down the line. Add that to the addictive properties of the "cult of personality"...it can be done, but it's not like a walk in the park. There is an extreme sense of letting everybody down that has to be gotten over...especially if your own survival is at stake. RP[/b][/quote]Hahahahahaha... This is truly funny. Come on, I'm sure you can come up with something better than this. "Has an entourage that depend on them". That is truly sad. The only people you should worry about that depend on you, is your family. If quitting the biz means you'll be able to deal with life, and take care of them instead of wallowing in addiction, then fuck the entourage. Let them find someone else to freeload off of. get your priorities straight.

[rickpowell]

[quote]Originally posted by Henchman: [b]Originally posted by rickpowell: A successful person in the music business has an entourage of people who depend on him/her. Any career decision like "cashing out" has repercussions up and down the line. Add that to the addictive properties of the "cult of personality"...it can be done, but it's not like a walk in the park. There is an extreme sense of letting everybody down that has to be gotten over...especially if your own survival is at stake. RP[/b][/quote] [quote][b]Hahahahahaha... This is truly funny. Come on, I'm sure you can come up with something better than this. "Has an entourage that depend on them". That is truly sad. The only people you should worry about that depend on you, is your family. If quitting the biz means you'll be able to deal with life, and take care of them instead of wallowing in addiction, then fuck the entourage. Let them find someone else to freeload off of. get your priorities straight.[/b][/quote]Boy, you and Chip are really getting a misread on this. Nowhere do I hint that I disagree with "The only people you should worry about that depend on you, is your family." And nowhere do I hint that if the decisions of your lifestyle are screwing you over, you should find another path. I am merely attempting to put the reader into a possible scenario which I have personal observational experience with, that sometimes people feel they have a cross to bear (on top of another cross they really are bearing), even if it need not be borne. And the cross they are bearing (drugs) magnifies the other (a sense of owing your life to others). Get it? RP

[henryrobinett]

rickpowell, I think you DO have a point. I think walking away is far easier said, by those of us who do not have the problem, than done. It's very easy to sit high up on our horses and criticize the lives of those we don't know or share. Hindsight is 20/20 and all. But there's a good reason hindsight is 20/20: we can learn and hopefully (but regretably rarely) apply. I DO know people who rightly feel a responsibilty for their entourage, just as a employer feels for his employees. I'm not talking about the band's hangers on, but those members and satellites who depend on the band for income. But the decision to walk/stay always has it's genus much earlier. It's possibly based on earlier irresponsibilties: not taking care of business, being drugged out, letting people down repeatedly. As the band/business declines one's sense of responsibility/denial/guilt/obligation grows to the extent that he's desperately looking for a way out. More drugs. More no shows. More wacked out behavior. Hey, it's just a hypothetical. Hey none of it is easy. Making a correct decision or even any decision can be tough. But facing life head on with eyes open and a clear mind as our only real tool is the best we've got going for us. So yes, I wouldn't be surprised if you were right about Staley and his rock star entourage-ness. But that is still no justifiable excuse. Ultimately he is not responsible for his entourage. Each member of the entourage is. All things must pass.

[Wewus432]

Well F*** this thread! I think it's bad form to talk ill of the dead. You could let his body get cold before you start trashing him. I thought we were paying tribute to a fallen brother instead it became a diatribe on drug abuse. I don't know, maybe seperate the threads, that bummed me out, the guy just died and people started talking about him like they knew him or something.

[Roto]

[quote]Originally posted by TheWewus: [b]Well F*** this thread! I think it's bad form to talk ill of the dead. You could let his body get cold before you start trashing him. I thought we were paying tribute to a fallen brother instead it became it a diatribe on drug abuse. I don't know, maybe seperate the threads, that bummed me out, the guy just died and people started talking about him like they knew him or something.[/b][/quote]I completely agree. I vote this as the worst thread I've ever seen on this forum. Layne Staley never asked for your sympathy anyway, but you could have some respect for his friends family and fans who will miss him. Just because he wrecked his own life doesn't make him a horrible person.

[henryrobinett]

Hopefully we're beginning to turn a tide. I think many, myself certainly, are getting tired and fed up with stupid rock stars, movies stars, musicians dying from drug overdoses. I am not apologizing. I'm pissed. It's stupid. This thread may mean to some, a tribute. To others it's not. I have no tribute for Staley.

[Wewus432]

That's cold Henry. I don't care right now how he went, or that he was a rock star, I just know he's gone and will be missed, and I'll bet his family feels the same way.

[henryrobinett]

Wewus, Did you read the entire thread or did you start and jump in the middle? I'm asking because I thought I stated my viewpoints. That I *DO* feel sorry for his family, friends, lovers, bandmates and fans. But I have absolutely zero sympathy for the addict unless he's trying to get help. It also may have something to do with my essentially "buddhist" take on death and dying.

[Wewus432]

Henry: I did read it from the beginning. I think what I objected to was the mixing of the two threads. I'm sorry I hurt your feelings. One of the great truths I got from the teachings of the Buddha was: Any truth that cannot be spoken with love is not the truth.

[Skip_dup1]

Henryrobinett- Gotta side with TheWewus and a couple of the others-that`s the point I was trying to get across. It`s popular these days to equate ANY drug use with putting a gun to one`s head, but that`s a patently false analogy to begin with, and it doesn`t excuse assigning rank stupidity as a cause of death without even knowing the facts of the case. Stupid people do plenty of damage without ever having a thing to do with drugs. If you want to jump down somebody`s throat about it, try the lawmakers who advocate throwing people in jail for virtually anything, and all the while U.S. arms are being bought with profits from that same trade. If memory serves, that was what the Iran-contra mess was about.

[strat0124]

[quote]Originally posted by TheWewus: [b]Henry: I did read it from the beginning. I think what I objected to was the mixing of the two threads. I'm sorry I hurt your feelings. One of the great truths I got from the teachings of the Buddha was: Any truth that cannot be spoken with love is not the truth.[/b][/quote]Buddha lives in NC by the way, I saw his big ass in New Bern at the Sonic. :)

[strat0124]

I just realized I have 1500 posts.....I am one sick b!@#$%d.....ok getting off here and earn my paycheck instead of BSing with y'all! :(

[henryrobinett]

Skip, Wewus, I'm not trying to get ANYONE to agree with me particularly. Just understand my point of view. We live in a drug culture so I realize my viewpoint is not going to be popular. And no Wewus, you did not hurt my feelings. Wewus said [quote] One of the great truths I got from the teachings of the Buddha was: Any truth that cannot be spoken with love is not the truth.[/quote]Maybe it's Confuscius? That doesn't sound like a Buddhist sentiment to me. That sounds more Christian. And simply put it's not true, but it sounds good. Now I'm not a Buddhist but much of my philosophy has it's lineage down that line. There are plenty of truths that can be spoken of dispassionately. Further by saying I have no sympathy for a certain pattern of behaviour does not also mean that I can't or don't have COMPASSION for the PERSON. In other words I have zero sympathy for the addict but plenty of compassion for the being and I'll help the being as much as I can. Trouble is unless the person comes clean you can't find the BEING underneath all that haze. Skip said: [quote]It`s popular these days to equate ANY drug use with putting a gun to one`s head, but that`s a patently false analogy to begin with, and it doesn`t excuse assigning rank stupidity as a cause of death without even knowing the facts of the case.[/quote]Sorry for appearing simplistic. There are few black and whites in this world. For me one of the few issues I don't vacillate on or find much area for grey is drug use. You're talking to the wrong guy. I don't even take asprin. I'm no kook. If I had some disease and doctors said I needed this drug to stay alive I guess I would take it. But I haven't taken ANY form of drug/medication since 1979. I don't expect everyone to do this,but my point of view is that this culture is dependant upon drugs and whether it's the street drugs or the AMA/Psychiatric drugs (the worst IMO) there's plenty harm to go around. Yes I agree, there ARE wonder drugs that do great things medically. So in short I DO think almost any form of drug abuse is like putting a gun to your head. But I'm different and I know I am. Are there gradations? Of course. Smoking a joint is not shooting heroin is not taking Prozac is not smoking Crack is not Haldol. But doing ANY DRUG TO THE POINT OF DEATH is stupid. I don't have to know the facts of the case, unless someone forced it into his arm, up his nose. So we will just have to agree to disagree on this point. I find a cause for many of our social ills drugs; medical abuse, psychiatric abuse, recreatinal abuse. Most people I know are on them so there's not going to be a lot of agreement with me on this case as most people are justifying their use.

[Rog]

[quote]Originally posted by henryrobinett: my point of view is that this culture is dependant upon drugs and whether it's the street drugs or the AMA/Psychiatric drugs (the worst IMO) there's plenty harm to go around. Yes I agree, there ARE wonder drugs that do great things medically. So in short I DO think almost any form of drug abuse is like putting a gun to your head.[/QB][/quote]I disagree. Drugs are simply not a problem - that's a fact. The problem lies with people's motivation to take certain drugs in large and regular quantities. There are many theories re. why people get fucked up on some drugs - boredom, depression, self-loathing, etc. We have to ask why these people feel that way in the first place and then maybe we'll get closer to an understanding of how to combat this problem. Naturally, vast amounts of hot air and money are directed at stopping drugs being imported ... the politicians have to be seen to be doing something. Strage how this policy isn't working one single bit though. As Bill Hicks said (I'm paraphrasing) 'The gov't are waging a war on drugs and they're losing, people who are as high as a kite are actually winning a war they didn't even realise they were fighting in.'

[henryrobinett]

[quote]Originally posted by Rog: [b]I disagree. Drugs are simply not a problem - that's a fact. [/b][/quote]Wow, and I thought *I* was being accused of being self rightegous. How can you state that that's a fact? How can drugs not be a problem? I see the drug problem every day. As I said earlier I believe in the decriminalization of drugs. Of course people do drugs. "Guns don't kill people. People kill people". Please. People make drugs, people sell drugs, people buy drugs, people do drugs, people kill for drugs, people kil themselves from drugs/for drugs. It is each individuals right. This I *DO* believe. So if you are stating this as fact prove it. Where is the data you're basing this axiomatic, self evident fact upon?

[Chip McDonald]

[quote]Originally posted by TheWewus: [b]Well F*** this thread! I think it's bad form to talk ill of the dead. You could let his body get cold before you start trashing him. I thought we were paying tribute to a fallen brother instead it became a diatribe on drug abuse. [/b][/quote]I'm not trashing him; look at my first post. On the other hand, there's a saying: those who live by the sword, die by it. If he hadn't made so much of his career singing about drugs, I wouldn't be discussing it.

[Rog]

[quote]Originally posted by henryrobinett: [b] [quote]Originally posted by Rog: [b]I disagree. Drugs are simply not a problem - that's a fact. [/b][/quote]Wow, and I thought *I* was being accused of being self rightegous. How can you state that that's a fact? How can drugs not be a problem? I see the drug problem every day. As I said earlier I believe in the decriminalization of drugs. Of course people do drugs. "Guns don't kill people. People kill people". Please. People make drugs, people sell drugs, people buy drugs, people do drugs, people kill for drugs, people kil themselves from drugs/for drugs. It is each individuals right. This I *DO* believe. So if you are stating this as fact prove it. Where is the data you're basing this axiomatic, self evident fact upon?[/b][/quote]Henry, As I said, drugs are not the problem. Drugs rarely kill. It's quite possible to have a heroin habit for many, many years and live a semi-normal life (if it is possible to define 'normal') That is a fact, given money and a clean supply. ODs mostly occur when a batch slips through the net which hasn't, for whatever reason, been cut and so the addict recieves a dose much more potent than one which he or she is accustomed to. Many people dabble with all sorts of drugs and experience zero problems. The people on this forum have, between us, tried pretty much every drug available. I bet many have had no problems with the drugs they've tried. Others will have problems but these problems will NOT have been caused by drugs, merely exacerbated by drugs. The worst drug in this respect is booze. I believe that it is naieve to point the finger of blame at a chemical compound or a plant. Trying to pinpoint the various reasons why a minority of people are motivated to ge themselves fucked up on a chemical is the real question here. Anyway, Peace. :)

[henryrobinett]

ROG, Boy are we on different planets. I wasn't born yesterday man. I've done most every drug. I counsel those who have abused or simply want to get off them,whether it's marijuana or crack. I'm not talking obvious problems. I wasn't a person you'd have considered ever had a drug problem. I knew I had it. I'm talking problems that are critical but you CAN'T SEE THEM clearly. The mind begins to slowly break down in it's ability to differentiate, problem solve, see and face things; deal with the real world. There is no drug that doesn't have negative by products. I knew people who did heroin their entire lives and kept clean needles and functioned. Jazz drummer Art Blakey was one. Once again you keep talking FACTS but fail to give them.

[nursers]

As stated previously: there is only one fact in regards to drug use - that fact being that there is no one cause / treatment / solution / explanation. Drug use is multi-factoral - there is near universal agreement on this amongst drug and alcohol professionals. Any other assertions are basically hot air and misinformation. As I have said before, it is so damn easy to make balck and white statements that sound sensible. The reality isn't so simple.

[Rog]

[quote]Originally posted by henryrobinett: [b]ROG, Boy are we on different planets. I wasn't born yesterday man. I've done most every drug. I counsel those who have abused or simply want to get off them,whether it's marijuana or crack. I'm not talking obvious problems. I wasn't a person you'd have considered ever had a drug problem. I knew I had it. I'm talking problems that are critical but you CAN'T SEE THEM clearly. The mind begins to slowly break down in it's ability to differentiate, problem solve, see and face things; deal with the real world. There is no drug that doesn't have negative by products. I knew people who did heroin their entire lives and kept clean needles and functioned. Jazz drummer Art Blakey was one. Once again you keep talking FACTS but fail to give them.[/b][/quote]I think we may be in different universes here ;) Often (in my experience) the people who turn to drugs in a big way are the people who need to escape from something. A mother whose boyfriend abuses her and her daughter turns to drink in a big way. A child raised in poverty feels there is no future for him. These are just examples, the specific causes number as many as there are people who have problems with substance abuse. Another way of looking at it: Do the 2 beers I had last night contribute to someone else's cirrosis? How about the £10 bag of heroin a friend tried? Did that lead to Layne's death? These substances did absolutely no harm, they only do harm in the hands of someone who, directly or indirectly, uses them to harm his or herself. I really don't believe that "There is no drug that doesn't have negative by products" given the context of reasonable and educated use. Anyway, I suggest we either start another thread or take this to PM if you'd like to continue this? Peace :)

[Skip_dup1]

A great philosopher once said, `If you get rid of drugs, you`ll still have abuse.` -Skip, college. I may have gotten afield of the topic at hand with my earlier comment. Look, frankly the whole heroin culture thing is totally beyond me. I never did get the appeal of it and I still don`t. I don`t even like getting vaccinated (when are they gonna improve on that anyway?). But it irritates me that so many of the negative comments here didn`t even mention the music. For that loss I am saddened. But too many people seemed to see it as a speech op for their pet causes. My best friend`s brother went down the same road-permently-while I was still in high school, but it didn`t turn my friend into a bible-thumping lunatic. I mean, the rhetoric around this issue makes it almost impossible to discuss it reasonably. I haven`t been in the states much lately so I don`t really know how much of a drug culture it still is. I was under the impression that sobriety was being trumpeted from every hilltop. But please don`t be patronizing and say that the people who point out excesses in the antidrug propaganda machine are justifying their own abuses. That`s crap-sorry.

[The Studio Pet-Rock]

Drugs are available. this is part of it. Booze is available. Pain is available in abundance. My parents divorced when I was 15. Yeah, I know; "boo, fucking hoo". I dealt with the brunt of a very ugly mess. They threatened to kill each other and themselves. Now, I think; "if only they'd followed through." They had that. I found acid, pot and speed. Ever held a gun to your head? Ever pulled the trigger? I did. Note to all; Don't EVER buy cheap bullets. Misfire. I lived & spent several months in a nice, clean room - denied of contact with the outside world and my own clothing. Fooled my way out of there. Honesty & sincerity will do it! Tricks 'em every time. So began the battle of "who gets custody of Mike." Both of them wanted me, because neither one of them wanted to end up paying child support - and it looks good in a small town if you put on such a show. Here's how it worked; several months with dad "Here's a $50. Go away." several months with mom. "here's a $50. Go away." Eventually, they married other people who had children from previous marriages. All of a sudden it was "Mike who? We've got NEW families to worry about." I became nothing more than a bad reminder of an ugly past for them. So, you see, this bullshit of "feeling sorry for the family" is just that - BULLSHIT!! Not everyone who goes through that scenario becomes a valued member of the Brady Bunch. So, quite frankly fuck you, okay? Fast-foward; 1994. After being clean for several years, I was at it again. I was in a bad relationship. The girl in question happened to be married. Oh, she had many great ideas of where her & I would end up, though. Her husband was an abusive asshole. But the constant hiding and fucking around got to be a bit too much. I got pretty messed up one afternoon & decided that was it. Headed 40 miles south of my hometown to a larger city where I KNEW I could get a gun that day. Crappy weather. (it was late December in North Dakota.) I chugged along at 35 mph as there was a blizzard from hell happening. Halfway there, I saw a car nearly burried in the ditch - with an entire family in it! I pulled over & picked them up. I got them home. They were so thankful. When I dropped them off, the dad said "You are a great person. Don't go back down that road." I drove several blocks away & had to pull over. I lost it. they felt I had saved thier lives that day. I still wonder if they know that they did the same for me(?) It was just dumb luck. Stupid circumstances that worked in my favor. Close call. Things like this do NOT happen for everyone when they need it most. The best way to change a persons life - and to SAVE a persons life is to make him/her feel as though they really make a difference. I still have some bad ones, but I stay away from the hard stuff. The day I hit it again, that's it. I know I'm done. But the car-on-the-side-of-the-road incident happened 8 years ago. I've done okay since. Not great - it IS a constant battle. But I'm here. So there's a small part of MY sob-story. Whatever any of you think, I could care less. The bottom line is this; Sympathy for Staley? Not in a million years. All the empathy in the world though.....

[Talcott]

mdpetric has it . When we love others we let them know they matter becuase they do. I 'm going to go out on a limb and clarify my definition of in this context. Love- the "commitment" to seek the highest good. Commitment is the key, because it is not really love until it starts to become uncomfortable, or inconvenient. Sometimes that manifests as a kind word or action, a charitable sacrifice, or a swift kick in the ass. Talcott

[Jedi]

[quote]Originally posted by Mdpetrick [b]The bottom line is this; Sympathy for Staley? Not in a million yeas. All the empathy in the world though..... [/b] [/quote]Thank you. I have avoided replying to this thread for awhile. But my brother, you have done it. You have voiced something I just couldn't articulate. Again, I thank you. [b]Don't judge[/b] . That's all. We act like Life is not always at the edge of death. Layne as well as the million other drug addicts have indeed made self destructive choices, but who are we to judge. Observe that the drug addiction thing doesn't work for you if you want to have a healthy body. Observe and utilize. Hence, don't become a drug addict because you have logically deduced that it is not beneficial for you. But don't judge. Any of us can go at anytime and for any reason. Just because Layne died we judge him as a loser. With if grace would have been on his side, and he cleaned himself up, then he would be O.K? To some even a hero? I think that is utter bullshit. Don't give sympathy, I agree, it is useless, but (and I quote from a guy who had a lot of good things to say) "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone." Mdpetrick you got a lot heart to be able to share that with us. Big ups to you. Peace. Namaste Jedi

[The Studio Pet-Rock]

Thanks, guys. I might have went a bit to deep with what I had to say. I have very little insight as to what went on over the course of Staley's life. All the rhetoric here about "knowing what it's like to be in his shoes" is ridiculous. No one - not even those who were closest to him could possibly know. So what if some people here have done - or knew someone who did H. Doesn't make you an authority on the subject. Your trip was your trip. A persons' history, personality and attitude will have a great deal of influence on how drugs will affect him/her. What ever exists in the depths of your mind will be brought out. Good or bad. That's been my experience anyway. To sit here & say "junkie, loser, etc." - especially if you've had any sort of bad experience (and who hasn't)with ANY hard drug is plain hypocrisy in my opinion. I don't profess to know what it's like to walk in anyone elses shoes. I've got mine to fill. I'm a lot more comfortable now that I'm not tripping in them all the time. Staley's trip is over as well. peace

[Dan South]

Half a page of remembrances and three pages of drug debate. Pathetic! Why don't you crusaders (on both sides of the argument) have enough class to start your own damned thread instead of stumping on someone's tombstone? Layne's death is a big loss for grunge fans everywhere. He had one of THE signature voices of the nineties. AIC is one of my son's favorite bands. We'll miss Layne and offer our condolences to his family, friends, and associates.

[The Studio Pet-Rock]

[quote]Originally posted by Dan South: [b]Half a page of remembrances and three pages of drug debate. Pathetic! Why don't you crusaders (on both sides of the argument) have enough class to start your own damned thread instead of stumping on someone's tombstone? Layne's death is a big loss for grunge fans everywhere. He had one of THE signature voices of the nineties. AIC is one of my son's favorite bands. We'll miss Layne and offer our condolences to his family, friends, and associates.[/b][/quote]Certainly hope this wasn't directed at me...

[Max Ventura]

Dan, it's Max. Besides the drugs argument, who the hell was this guy who died? I mean, I don't know the guy or the band, so certainly they're not all the way up there in stardom, and they get FOUR pages?

[Skip_dup1]

argomax, They`re all the way up there. You may have heard their music but didn`t know who you were hearing. Maybe someone who knows the AIC library can recommend which CD to check out, and I would certainly suggest it, but it may or may not be your kind of music. As for some of the experiences that some people have had with hard drugs, it goes back to my earlier comment. It`s an experience, it`s history. For those who liked AIC it`s a big loss, for those who didn`t that`s the kind of comments they should be making-sucks that he died but the music wasn`t my cup of tea, etc. Anything else may be poingant, interesting, etc. but deserves its own thread. Wrong address here, folks-sorry.