article: Alice In Chains Singer Layne Staley Presumed Dead?

[eh steve]

There goes the r00ster. Bummer. I met him at the limelight in NYC many years ago. AIC opened for KingsX. Awesome Show! y0 Beatheavy, I fixed jour ugly head. :freak: [img]http://liquid2k.com/kilroyorb/d1.gif[/img]

[Lee Flier]

[quote]Originally posted by henryrobinett: [b] [quote]Originally posted by Geenard Skeenard: [b]People can do whatever they want as far as I am concerned, long as it doesn't hurt anyone else.[/b][/quote]You know I feel EXACTLY the same way. My only difference not stated above is if you're a drug addict stay away, unless you're willing to accept help from me. I'll be there. I'll give you more than one chance too. MAYBE more than two. Same goes for a family member. If you're a banker and I see you're doing coke I won't do business with you. If I hire you from a gig and I see you getting high on the break I'll tell you that ain't happening on my gig. If I see you continue you aren't hired again, no matter who you are. That's my policy and it's no secret. But I can't and won't TELL YOU HOW TO LIVE YOUR LIFE. That's up to you buddy. But I will remove you from my life if it runs up against mine. [/b][/quote]Absolutely! My attitude is the same. BUT... some events of late have caused me to re-think that just a little. Namely, removing the person from your life is not always a real option. Depending on who it is, sometimes it would be just as painful to remove them from your life as to deal with them. That is the flaw that I find in the libertarian philosophy (which I basically hold myself) - if you don't have your shit together yourself, and you do things to harm yourself, eventually it is INEVITABLE you are going to hurt someone else - BADLY - and probably someone you least want to hurt. If you die young and you have a family, or anyone at all who cares about you, how have you "not hurt anyone else" by not taking care of yourself? If you're an addict and you are draining the resources (financial and emotional) of those who care about you, those who feel they have no choice but to help you, how are you not hurting them? And if they have to cut you out of their lives because they realize they can't do any more for you, how are you not hurting them? I'm not saying I know what the answer is. In fact I don't think there's any blanket answer - it's different for every individual and situation. And of course, I don't think that so-called victimless crimes should be illegal according to law. But there's a saying, "Character is what you do when no one's looking", and that's what I'm talking about. Even rock stars have to answer to that - and that I think is what makes being a rock star extremely difficult for most. --Lee

[strat0124]

Well I have first hand experience. And yes an addict will drain everyone around them, family, friends, aquaintances. Lie through their teeth to divert attention from the issue. However, since when has legislating morality EVER worked? Also, when I had to deal with my brother in law, it was a bit removed, and easy to say all the things like "the sorry mofo won't even try to keep a job". But when its (in my case) my son, you realize real quick what the REAL damage is and who it affects. Having said that, do I give a rats ass if a junkie living in a condemned flop house is shooting smack? On a human level of compassion, yes. But as removed as I am as a family man with responsibilities more pressing, realistically no. But do we condemn these folks because of their affliction...I don't think so. I heard a great quote not long ago "drug addiction of the poor is a crime, drug addiction in the affluent is a medical condition". I know the more conservative of us won't agree with that, but its my life experience that makes me believe it. Right or wrong. I hear all the BS about gateway drugs.....and the sad and sorry truth is the real gateway drugs are ones that are legal, not illegal. I've seen more human tragedy from legal drugs than illegal in my 44 years of existance on earth. So what do you do? Crack down on the evil pot smokers? To me that is ludicrous. And I agree if you work for a living there is no place in your life for mixing illicit behavior of ANY kind with your job. BUt if you do, thats your biz...not mine. When it affects me, I'll come knockin.

[Lee Flier]

Oh, don't get me wrong, I would NEVER advocate legislating morality! This is not a legal thing I'm talking about, it's a personal decision thing. I think all drugs should be legal and addicts should never be put in jail, but just because they're legal still doesn't make it a good idea. Same with alcohol and cigarettes of course. --Lee

[Henchman]

[quote]Originally posted by Rog: [b] The 'fuck 'em' attitude here stinks. Although a rock star had problems, next time it could easily be your brother, sister or friend. You you just going to say fuck 'em then?[/b][/quote]Uhm, actually yes. If they don't accept the help when offered, that is exactly what I would and have done. Next time you go outside, and find your car window smashed., and all the contents gone, or when you home and find your stereo, TV etc missing, or when you walk into your studio and find all your gear gone, then come back and talk about fucking compassion.

[henryrobinett]

Strat Geenard and Lee, We tend to more agree than disagree here. I too do not believe in legislating morality. I don't believe in filling jail/prison cells with drug abusers. Thieves, rapists, murderers yes. Personally I don't believe in legal drugs and more than I do illegal ones. Vitamins are the only pills you'll see me popping, but that's me. I'm a strange bird. But I have a strong sense of what is right and wrong, admittedly for me, but I haven't seen drug abuse WORK for any one else in a truly constructive, positive manner. Drugs destry the mind and body. And I used to try to justify it years and years ago; "it really helped my playing. I could get to that place". But that was so much bullshit. I just have no place for it in my life, in any way shape or form. And then when I see it another star has bought the farm because of it, well I can't muster a lot of sympathy, because I KNOW he/she has had opportunity.

[Franknputer]

Hmm...why did I start reading this, when I had been avoiding it so long... :confused: Personally, I didn't know Layne - did any of you? I cannot know what it was like for him, or what was going on in his life at the time, but it must have felt pretty bad... He probably had the opportunity to get help - whether or not he had the support, or the will - who knows? I know how difficult it is to give up something that has become your identity, for better or worse - especially if you feel that you have little or nothing to give it up for. I have some shoes that are something like his, and I have walked a long way in them, but they are not his shoes, and it is not for me to judge. BTW - compassion is hard - sometimes it's fruitless. Replacing your stereo is a pain in the ass. But if you had to give up one or the other, which would you rather live without? Peace, y'all. Look for the good in your lives, because in the end it's all you really have.

[Talcott]

Geenard Legislating morality is the primary source of legal codification. The question of what is considered morally acceptable by a large enough majority, or a minority with the power to enforce it. For example your morality is based upon individual respect, and I am assuming that you believe in the legitimacy of the laws that are upheld that relate to that. As it relates to law the quetion is not if, but whose morality will be codified. Talcott

[D. Gauss]

so i guess with the singer dead, the AIC reunion is out of the question? (though it didn't seem to stop INX!) :) -d. gauss

[Lee Flier]

[quote]Originally posted by Super 8: [b]Haven't you heard the saying about not judging people until you've walked a mile in their shoes?[/b][/quote]Yeah... that way, if they get mad at you for judging them, they'll be a mile away - and barefoot. :D --Lee

[ernest828]

Too much of anything is not good. SEX+DRUGS+ROCK AND ROLL=PREMATURE DEATH AIC was a great band. I missed them these last couple of years and now I will miss them even more. RIP. Ernest

[Steve LeBlanc]

[quote]Even if you didn't like his music or his "habits" or whatever, you have to respect his artistry. He was one hell of a talented singer with great range (although maybe not lyrically) and his influence is all over the place. SUX...[/quote]Well, I just never got it...sorry...everytime he was on the radio I changed the station. When I was at a party...some asshole would always put an AIC CD on...before the first song was half-way through I needed to step out for a smoke. He influenced a lot of people, that really sucks from my POV because to my ears the worst thing you can do is sound like AIC. :D

[Iaian]

First of all I will admit that I dont like AIC, never have. Someone is dead now from apparent overdose, in my mind that equalls suicide. I have a wierd perspective on all of this. I lost my father about two years ago to alcoholism and almost lost my self into drugs. The abuse thing starts as a way out, and as long as you want a way out it will stay. IMO Layne got what he wanted and/or deserved, the price for stupidity can be a large and painfull one. Sadly he is probably better off, as is Kurt and Jim and a ton of other depressed rockstars as well as my father who was not famous. I feel bad for his family, his friends and his fans but not for him. He did not watch himself do this and he did not have to find his body. He did not have to plan funeral arangements or call his family members. We can easily sit on both sides of the junkey argument but when it comes down to it a man is dead, a band has died and I family must go on somehow. Sorry for rambling but this I think arguing about what he deserved it a mute point. Iaian sorry if I have offended anyone.

[Dylan]

So when a family member dies of cancer that was caused by smoking are we supposed to say too fucking bad, they dug their own grave? It's important to take responsibility in one's actions, but that doesn't mean that you have to come across as an unsympathetic jerk in the process. I'd think that musicians of all people would be understanding when something like this happens.

[Steve LeBlanc]

[quote]Originally posted by Dillweed: [b]So when a family member dies of cancer that was caused by smoking are we supposed to say too fucking bad, they dug their own grave? It's important to take responsibility in one's actions, but that doesn't mean that you have to come across as an unsympathetic jerk in the process. I'd think that musicians of all people would be understanding when something like this happens.[/b][/quote]Well for what it's worth...I'm sympathetic...I'm especially sensitive to cases where someone killed themselves. I just don't think this singer is worth anymore words than the thousands of kids who kill themselves every year. So while you guys slug it out about drug use I'll keep it more lighthearted...I'd rather hear cats fucking than Staley sing. ;)

[henryrobinett]

[quote]Originally posted by Dillweed: [b]So when a family member dies of cancer that was caused by smoking are we supposed to say too fucking bad, they dug their own grave? It's important to take responsibility in one's actions, but that doesn't mean that you have to come across as an unsympathetic jerk in the process. I'd think that musicians of all people would be understanding when something like this happens.[/b][/quote]Understanding? What am I not understanding? I think I understand perfectly well. I didn't know the man, so perhaps that's not fair. But what am I suppose to understand here? WHY am I suppose to be sympathetic and WHAT am I to be sympathetic to? I can't be sympathetic to the act of being a drug addict because I'm not a drug addict and being a drug addict is destructive to everyone the addict knows. A smoker who dies does need to take responsibilty for his/her actions. As much as I hate the legal/ethical actions of certain Tobacco companies, it doesn't make sense to blame/sue THEM because YOU chose to smoke when you knew full and well the hazards. As a human being I can feel sympathy with the pain and suffering AND with the dumb ass-ness of doing something that can easily kill you. But drugs are different. Believe me, I have sympathy. That's why I teach in the prisons. I have a lot of sympathy for those guys and their familes. And many of these indiviuals are convicted murderers. An overwhelming majority of these criminals were drug addicts or severely fucked up on some drugs/alcohol combination when their crimes were committed. And there are some "great guys" in there, seriously. Funny and engaging people. Because they're crimminals/addicts doesn't mean they're not human. But come on. Staley killed himself. What am I to understand that I don't?

[Chip McDonald]

[quote]Originally posted by nursers: [QB]I just love the 'junkies-suck, I-had-problems-and-I-got-over-them, they-just-need-to-make-a-choice' mentality. [/quote][qb] I hope this wasn't addressed to my post, because it's totally misguided if so... [b]variance in people who use drugs goes from one-time only recreational user to full-time, heavy addict. And there are a million points in between, all with different causes, solutions etc.[/b] But there's aren't a million who are in a position to both sell a million records about it, and reap the rewards of that.

[ikestr]

Me, I won't shed a tear for Staley. Yeah he had a great voice and all, but he chose to do drugs and now he's dead because of his choice. Too bad. I have no sympathy for what happens to druggies, I only have sympathy for the lives of those who are effected by druggies. I've been there and done that, I f***ed up people's lives, I quit and I made ammends. If I would have died, I wouldn't have wanted anyone to shed a tear for me or sympathize for me. If you do drugs in my band, youre out. Fortunately all the musicians I deal with are professional and dont do drugs. Drugs are the worst thing in life. You chose to do drugs, you chose to quit. If you die from drugs too f***ing bad. Period. ikestr

[nursers]

[quote] I hope this wasn't addressed to my post, because it's totally misguided if so... [/quote]It wasn't aimed at anyone except the odd poster who makes grand proclamations that 'Junkies are this' or 'Junkies are that' - it really shows a concrete way of thinking, that if applied to other areas would be damn scary. It harks back to extremism (nazism, fascism whatever), where vistims are painted as being a herd of identical beings with exactly the same traits. It is damn easy to make proclamations, not so easy to think through the real issues and recognise that reasons for drug use / abuse etc can be so varied as to make generalisations meaningless. Has nothing to do with AIC - don't think I've heard a song of theirs in my life.

[Super 8]

[quote]Originally posted by Talcott: [b]Geenard Legislating morality is the primary source of legal codification. The question of what is considered morally acceptable by a large enough majority, or a minority with the power to enforce it. For example your morality is based upon individual respect, and I am assuming that you believe in the legitimacy of the laws that are upheld that relate to that. As it relates to law the quetion is not if, but whose morality will be codified. Talcott[/b][/quote]Talcott, the problem I see with "legislating morality", is that once it becomes the LAW, it ceases to be morality. Morality requires heartfelt conscious choices. Law requires obedience. An individual who breaks a moral code fears shame and disgrace. One who breaks a law fears punishment. How many people exceed the speed limit when they are confident no police are around? Now how many people break the speed limit who are morally opposed to speeding? See my point? It is ironic that the laws which are in place to protect us by governing our behavior, may also be eroding the very moral code that was used to create them.

[eh steve]

and would you cry if i told you that i lied would you say goodbye or would you let it ride. dun d da dun d da dun d d dun dun dun d da dun d da dun d d dun dun

[Chip McDonald]

[quote]Originally posted by mdpetrick@yahoo.com: [b]I certainly would love to know where you get your logic from, chip. Ever been a "rock star"? [/b][/quote]No, but I have a few friends who essentially are borderline "rock stars", met my share and know people who are friends with bona fide "rock stars": sorry, it massively does not suck to be a rock star. [b]Yeah, it must be great though - everyone wanting a piece of you at any cost, scrutinizing every fucking little thing you say & do, talking (and writing)shit about you. Not everyone is born with the thick skin required to cope with all that "great" stuff. [/b] A) Seldom does someone make it in the music business that *doesn't* have thick skin. B) If someone sneaks through, no one is forcing them to stay in that situation. They can quit and flip burgers if it's so horrible, can't they? C) If they're so successful that they're essentially "stuck" being "ultimately famous" (which Staley wasn't), they can always just opt out - leave the country, go pretend they're someone else, they CAN avoid it, unless we're talking Michael Jordan/David Letterman/Elvis famour (which not what we're talking about). D) If being a rockstar sucks so bad, why are the Backstreet Boys still breathing? There's been cases of "rock stars" just quitting. No one is stopping them. The problem happens when they're DUMB and get messed up with drugs. That is their CHOICE, and if it messes up their life it was THEIR CHOICE. [b]What good is all that money if you're confined by fame? The freedom that so many people take for [/b] Staley wasn't confined by fame. He could have cut his hair, dressed like an average joe, moved to some little town somewhere, sat on the beach and had a great life. NOTHING was stopping that from happening (and I know a LOT of rock stars that have done just that). [b]Anonymity becomes to the "rock star" what "making it" is to the kid still struggling - playing bars/coffee shops for a pittance.[/b] Nah. Layne Staley could have cut his hair and gone basically anywhere without anyone recognizing him, outside of Seattle. As far as the kid struggling in bars and coffee shops... I was in Lowes today buying dry wall compound, and an employee stopped me and went "hey man, I saw you play a few months ago", yada yada yada... Went in the Flourescent Church of the Consumer (Walmart) and a student came up to me had to talk for a bit. Last night I was accosted (ahem) by a rather large chested but-taken friend out with some other friends, of which one's husband used to be a student of mine, so I had to go through a few minutes of shop talk there... Meanwhile LCF is going on and on about how great I am, so I'm going "thanks..." sheepishly over and over, meanwhile trying to break free because I have flyers to put up, so at this place I have to chat with at least 3 other people and "greet" a few others before I can even make it to the bulletin board in the back,.. then out on the street I'm walking down the sidewalk and I pass a group of people and one goes "hey, (random detritus about hearing me play somewhere)", ..on and on. I've lost girlfriends over this because sometimes it gets out of hand, but I can't ignore people that are just trying to be friendly. I remember when I was playing in a fairly popular local band a few years back basically having to give up and go somewhere else other than the mall, shopping at Christmas time because it was taking half an hour just to get from one store to the next. Is that what it's like to be a rockstar? Probably not, but I have an idea (only, where's my royalties , Porsche and super model? Oh wait, I forgot, I had the model but she was flipped out...)). HOWEVER I could easily just go to more obscure places and it would be less of a problem, and if I WANTED to I could change how I dress and look, no one would know me. The point though, is that if it sucked so bad, I could never play out, go back into photography or programming, and in a few years I'd be "nobody" (or more of a "nobody"). I mean, if you don't want to be a rockstar, don't have long hair, don't wear freaky clothes, don't pull up in a $100,000 car, don't pull out $100 bills, etc. Sorry, I don't buy that... [b]Money is required to live, but to insinuate that having it is a [i]reason[/i] to live is simply preposterous.[/b] I insinuate nothing of the sort, ironically the opposite: if it sucked so bad he could have cashed out, like a lot of the metal guys did from the 80's. He had the fortune of being in a highly successful group, one that was both financially rewarding and musically - he made his mark. Nothing was forcing him to stay in.

[rickpowell]

[quote]Originally posted by Chip McDonald: [b][QUOTE] I insinuate nothing of the sort, ironically the opposite: if it sucked so bad he could have cashed out, like a lot of the metal guys did from the 80's. He had the fortune of being in a highly successful group, one that was both financially rewarding and musically - he made his mark. Nothing was forcing him to stay in.[/b][/quote]Being that my wife is the niece of a mega-platinum artist who very recently decided to hang it up, I have a different perspective on this. A successful person in the music business has an entourage of people who depend on him/her. Any career decision like "cashing out" has repercussions up and down the line. Add that to the addictive properties of the "cult of personality"...it can be done, but it's not like a walk in the park. There is an extreme sense of letting everybody down that has to be gotten over...especially if your own survival is at stake. RP

[Chip McDonald]

[quote]Originally posted by rickpowell: A successful person in the music business has an entourage of people who depend on him/her. Any career decision like "cashing out" has repercussions up and down the line. [/quote]Yeah, but it's not their responsibility to subsidize their entourage. That's not why you do music. I have friends that are in such situations; they don't expect it to be "forever", it's a job. It's not a rockstar's responsibility to support an entourage; if the party is over it's over. [b]a walk in the park. There is an extreme sense of letting everybody down that has to be gotten over...especially if your own survival is at stake.[/b] Letting everyone down if it's your own survival??? Sounds like letting the leeches die off. If such an "entourage" knows what's up with the rockstar's life, and that it's crashing, and that this rockstar doesn't want to do it anymore - they have NO pull in the matter. It's not like the Rockstar has to just up and one day go "goodbye"; and it's not like rockstars haven't disconnected from things in the past, for that matter EVERYONE is "retiring" these days. Who gets into rock and roll thinking there's going to be retirement benefits? The rockstar is culpable for the entourage? That's a new one...

[Lemmy Kilmister]

[quote]Originally posted by SF audio: [b] [quote]Originally posted by mdpetrick@yahoo.com: [b] [quote]Originally posted by SF audio: [b]I think of the die young crowd 30 years ago - Joplin,Hendrix, Morrison, and I don't get the feeling it was quite the same (maybe someone from that time can let us know?). IMO, Cobain and Staley aren't in the same ballpark, although they might have thought they were....[/b][/quote]Oh, was this a Death Competition? Huh. So who's the winner - in your opinion? Not sure what "ballpark" you're pitching from, but maybe you've a bit too much sand in your shoes.[/b][/quote]Just my opinion - don't think the grunge "pioneers" such as Nirvana, Chains, etc., are as timeless as the rock brigade of the late 60's/early 70's. A guy like Kurt Cobain thought of himself as such a pioneer. Blew his brains out at 27 (magical rock star suicide age) - maybe to immortalize himself? ....[/b][/quote]Where the hell do you people get this shit? What the hell made you think he thought of himself that way? Unfortunately for you, 20 years from now, bands like AIC and Nirvana WILL be considered classic, while Jimi Hendrix, Joplin, etc. will be considered Oldies but Goodies. I bet YOUR parents didnt have very nice things to say about Jimi, Janis, & Morrison. People grow older, music moves on.

[Rog]

[quote]Originally posted by Henchman: [b] [quote]Originally posted by Rog: [b] The 'fuck 'em' attitude here stinks. Although a rock star had problems, next time it could easily be your brother, sister or friend. You you just going to say fuck 'em then?[/b][/quote]Uhm, actually yes. If they don't accept the help when offered, that is exactly what I would and have done. Next time you go outside, and find your car window smashed., and all the contents gone, or when you home and find your stereo, TV etc missing, or when you walk into your studio and find all your gear gone, then come back and talk about fucking compassion.[/b][/quote]My car has been broken into 3 times this year. My home has been broken into twice over the last year. The second time was 2 weeks ago. Wanna talk about compassion now?

[Skip_dup1]

I`m jumping in a bit late but I`ve been reading. I can understand and totally agree with keeping gig situations clean and all but policies on that are an individual choice, and it doesn`t change the fact that I`m a little dismayed at some of the attitudes I`ve been hearing here. I mean, not to be hurtful but let me see if I can turn it around and let you know how it sounds to me... `Oh so you SCREWED UP, or someone close to you SCREWED UP, well too-fucking-bad-and now music has lost a SUCESSFUL, REAL TALENT and that sucks but you can`t see past YOUR personal baggage and what does that say about you, and the facts aren`t even in yet and you`re already on the lecture circuit and music doesn`t benefit from small minded people, maybe you should do something else...` doesn`t feel too good, does it? My point being, this story had a bad ending and it sucks, but it didn`t take long for people to jump in with their personal axes to grind. Not giving a crap about Staley won`t help whatever happened to you in the past. Caring about the loss of a unique and-like it or not-influential figure in music doesn`t diminish the fact that stuff equally deserving of sympathy may have happened to you. There`s more than enough stuff in this world to be depressed about-that`s why it`s important not to be.

[henryrobinett]

Skip, I don't quite understand your diatribe, but yes, it IS that persons responsibility and no it doesn't FEEL good. The point of the matter is: WHAT we do WE ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR. Nobody else. I can find no redeeming excuses for drug use and especialy drug use heavy enough to kill you. If somebody plays russian roulette, points a loaded gun at their temple, pulls the trigger and it goes off, I'm sorry. I have no sympathy for you, being so stupid. I have sympathy for your parents, friends and family. OK so you have had a bad spill of "luck". So you've made some bad decisions. Let's work on those things. But burying a needle in your arm is no solution. And don't come crying when you've bought it. Too late.

[rickpowell]

[quote]Originally posted by Chip McDonald: [b] [quote]Originally posted by rickpowell: A successful person in the music business has an entourage of people who depend on him/her. Any career decision like "cashing out" has repercussions up and down the line. [/quote]Yeah, but it's not their responsibility to subsidize their entourage. That's not why you do music. I have friends that are in such situations; they don't expect it to be "forever", it's a job. It's not a rockstar's responsibility to support an entourage; if the party is over it's over. [b]a walk in the park. There is an extreme sense of letting everybody down that has to be gotten over...especially if your own survival is at stake.[/b] Letting everyone down if it's your own survival??? Sounds like letting the leeches die off. Read what I said..."has to be gotten over." This is a must. But I view this more as the owner of a business with many loyal employees having to tell them "sayonara"...not a bunch of worthless "leeches" as you describe them. If such an "entourage" knows what's up with the rockstar's life, and that it's crashing, and that this rockstar doesn't want to do it anymore - they have NO pull in the matter. It's not like the Rockstar has to just up and one day go "goodbye"; and it's not like rockstars haven't disconnected from things in the past, for that matter EVERYONE is "retiring" these days. Who gets into rock and roll thinking there's going to be retirement benefits? The rockstar is culpable for the entourage? That's a new one...[/b][/quote]Not culpable...just caring. RP

[Chip McDonald]

[quote]Originally posted by rickpowell: [b] [quote]Originally posted by Chip McDonald: [b] The rockstar is culpable for the entourage? That's a new one...[/b][/quote]Not culpable...just caring. RP[/b][/quote]It's "caring" if, in the case of your multi-platinum artist that the artist is mentally sane, financially well off, and ABLE to do so. It is NOT the responsibility of the artist to support the people that have worked for them indefinitely to the point that they feel killing themselves is a solution. That's absurd, not "caring". Layne Staley killed himself because he couldn't figure out a way to support his entourage??? I *hope* that's not why he killed himself (and I'm sure it isn't).