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Behringer steals again!


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Not that I'm surprised to see this, but these guys have blatantly stole yet another good design, this time from my buddies over at Tech 21. First, look at the [url=http://www.tech21nyc.com/TM10.html]Trademark 10[/url] . Notice the panel layout. Now take a look at Behringer's layout over [url=http://www.behringer.com/GM110/GM110_panel.jpg]here[/url] . You can view all of the Behringer amp [url=http://www.behringer.com/02_products/prodindex.cfm?id=GM110&lang=eng]here[/url] . Besides the basic cosmetic and speaker/wattage differences, it is a total copy of TM 10. I've been a huge Tech 21 fan ever since owning my first Sans Amp and have used many of their products including the Trademark 10 and 60. It really irks me to see companies get away with this kind of thing. I just sent off an e-mail to Tech 21 about this, so hopefully they'll take legal action against Behringer. I've considered buying Behringer's products in the past, but I can tell you now that I'll never do it after seeing this. It's one thing to borrow concepts and make them into your own, but it's another thing to outright take an entire design and slap your own logo on it. Watch a bunch of crooks!
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[quote]Originally posted by Dan South: [b]They also sell a mixer that bears a stiking resemblence to the 01V.[/b][/quote]Not to mention the Mackie mixer design that they completed riped off, or the HR824 monitors for that matter.
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[quote]Originally posted by DM: [b]So what if they rip off other designs? Not everyone can afford the originator.[/b][/quote]So, let me get this straight. You see no problem in what Behringer does? If so, what incentive does a company have to spend money in researching and designing a product if someone can just reverse engineer it consequence free? That's why we have patents and other laws to protect peoples work. The real problem I have with Behringer is that they essentially make an EXACT copy of the product that they are so called "emulating". It's one thing when a company like Peavey makes a Fender-ish tube amp that's modeled after a product that's been out for several years. But these are brand new products that Behringer is copying, and I do have a problem with this. Like Dan said, look at their O1V copy. It's laid out almost EXACTLY like the Yamaha. When the Mackie mixer issue came out I thought everyone was being too critical of Behringer. But they have ripped off several designs since then and I just can't believe that they're getting away with it!
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I dunno. I see so little originality in ANY business. As soon as someone has an idea that works, someone else will make a cheaper copy. Follow, the formula, lower the price, edge out the original. It's a staid business practice that has been around forever. (You'um like sharp pointy stick that Gow-Gow make? Me make one too, only charge one chicken, not two. Gow-Gow's new stick have pointy rock at end. Me make one too ...)
I really don't know what to put here.
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wait a minute here.......a company does research and developement and then [i]another[/i] company steals the concept? hmmm. what computer software company does this sound like...i guess by this logic no one should use that [i]fake[/i] brand of computers..... or they should call it [b]Microcrap[K][/b]
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[quote]Originally posted by coaster: [b]wait a minute here.......a company does research and developement and then [i]another[/i] company steals the concept? hmmm. what computer software company does this sound like...i guess by this logic no one should use that [i]fake[/i] brand of computers..... or they should call it [b]Microcrap[K][/b][/b][/quote]Well, you can use 'em, or not use 'em, but they deserve about as much respect as Behringer[k]
So Many Drummers. So Little Time...
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Dillweed, can I pick your brains about Sansamp? I'm using an original right now to track (analog) and I'd like to find out how you used yours. Settings, other effects, eq, etc. Oh yeah, and you can come see me in a cover band at Blue Eyes Lounge, 10845 N.E. Halsey either night this coming weekend. Hope I didn't take you too far off topic there, no spam intended. Well, maybe a little. :D timrocker@yahoo.com
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[quote]Originally posted by DM: [b]...But hey, it's a much lower cost alternative that is still of a very good quality...[/b][/quote]I can't agree with this statement either. My first Behringer purchase was a 6-channel keyboard mixer, it died in three weeks, AND I had to send it to Germany for repair!! The band bought a feedback exterminator, it was dead out of the box. The dealer gave us another one, IT ALSO was dead out of the box. Honestly, I don't know how they've stayed in business THIS long!! :mad: :mad:

Botch

"Eccentric language often is symptomatic of peculiar thinking" - George Will

www.puddlestone.net

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This is certainly a funny topic to me. In todays world where ripping off licks from someones record and using them in your own recording is a defacto standard...where passing around free copies of copyrighted songs is common...where sharing copyrighted software is done all the time...Is your computer made my Macintosh or IBM? If not, then you own a cheaper clone of the same technology. I ride a motorcycle. Have any of you noticed how many Harley clones are on the streets? Every major manufacturer has developed a Harley look-alike that almost always has better technology and is cheaper than the Harley. Harley spent thousands of dollars trying to patent it's "potato, potato" sound and lost. Is it really worth twice the price to ride a Harley? Chrysler comes out with a mini van..now look what we have. Name me one industry where the leading products aren't cloned, copied and marketed for less. Do you folks buy TV's? Washers and Dryers? Lawn mowers? The list is endless. Why should musical equipment be any different. Should we all still be playing fifty thousand dollar Synclaviers or Mellotrons? How many SM58 clones are on the market? How many Neuman mic clones? I remember this exact same arguement when Honda hit America with motorcycles and cars. Cheap Japanese crap is what everybody said. They stole our technology..pretty funny now. Any of you drive an imported vehicle? If a company steals a patented or copyrighted product, there is legal recourse available. I believe Mackie sued Behringer and lost. Everybody steals everything from everybody anymore. Do we benefit from cheaper equipment? And whatever you do, don't dare buy a C1 mic. We should all be using old RCA mics and refuse to buy the cheaper clones. If we refuse to purchase cheap copies of popular products then we would all be driving Model T's. Welcome to the real world. Go to your favorite file sharing site and download Man of Constant Sorrow..

Mark G.

"A man may fail many times, but he isn't a failure until he begins to blame others" -- John Burroughs

 

"I consider ethics, as well as religion, as supplements to law in the government of man." -- Thomas Jefferson

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Mark has a point - competition is good. So Behringer rip off designs? Who cares? Will their amp sound any good? Probably not... and that's all that matters.
"That's what the internet is for. Slandering others anonymously." - Banky Edwards.
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I could care less...all of these guys are overcharging us for gear, I know the market sets the price to a certain degree but c'mon none of this stuff is worth what it goes for in materials/labor. I find it disgusting that it costs as much as it does for good equipment, sorry if that doesn't gel with the livelyhood of many of our members. :D
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I'm surprised to hear all of the backing support for Behringer. I'm essentially seeing comments like "companies charge too much for their gear, so it's okay to rip off the design on make a cheaper version". Or "everyone else steals, so it's not a big deal". "It's just like downloading an MP3, right"? BTW, the Tech 21 Trademark is only $300, which is hardly what I'd classify as expensive or overpriced. This amp has 3 different amp model types and balanced XLR DI output for recording. To me, that is a freakin' deal! Sorry guys, I don't buy it :eek: .
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[quote]Originally posted by TinderArts: [b] [quote]Originally posted by Dillweed: or the HR824 monitors for that matter.[/b][/quote]It seems to me that Mackie pulled a Behringer on the 824s, Genelec anyone?[/QB][/quote]Excuse me if I disagree! Except for a part of the tweeter assembly that is somewhat similar to Genelec, Mackie is using a very different construction - mechanically as well as electrically. The commercial originator of the concept was Philips back in the 70's (MFB - Motional FeedBack, active HiFi speaker), it also has some remote resemblance with Linn's Isobarik & Sara loudspeakers. And it seems to me that the Behringer is utilizing yet another concept (but perhaps a little more similar to Genelec than Mackie). Regarding that new Behringer guitar amp: an obvious rip-off. /Mats

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What do we want? Procrastination!

When do we want it? Later!

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Steve, Here's my suggestion, then. Start a company, design a piece of gear, manufacture it, and sell it. It won't take you very long to discover all the costs involved that you've never given a thought to before. Materials and labor are actually a small part of your total cost to market, but everybody always likes to think of them as if they're the only part. Add in R&D cost, tooling costs, plant maintenance, utility overheads, rent (or mortgage/construction costs if your company is buying/building its own facility), administrative staff costs (after all, somebody has to make sure that the dealers you're selling the stuff to are paying you for it, as well as folks doing payroll, administering benefits packages, etc...) office supplies, all the daily costs of doing business, and you'll find that to survive selling something made of 'only $60 worth of parts' takes more gross income than you think. [quote]Originally posted by Steve LeBlanc: [b]I could care less...all of these guys are overcharging us for gear, I know the market sets the price to a certain degree but c'mon none of this stuff is worth what it goes for in materials/labor. I find it disgusting that it costs as much as it does for good equipment, sorry if that doesn't gel with the livelyhood of many of our members. :D [/b][/quote]
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$60?!?!?! i have two "boogerringer" compressors in my live rack, and there is NO WAY these cost $60 for parts! i always thought more like $7 i have the ACP22 in my racj, paid $400 and its night and day better. for that one i would guess maybe $30 of parts. would i buy behringer again? yes, because for $100 its a great compressor for kick, snare, other fiddly things. i dont rely on it, have no faith in it, but if it works for a little while thats great. i have got my $100 worth out of them.
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[quote]Originally posted by GeorgeVW: [b]Steve, Here's my suggestion, then. Start a company, design a piece of gear, manufacture it, and sell it. It won't take you very long to discover all the costs involved that you've never given a thought to before. Materials and labor are actually a small part of your total cost to market, but everybody always likes to think of them as if they're the only part. Add in R&D cost, tooling costs, plant maintenance, utility overheads, rent (or mortgage/construction costs if your company is buying/building its own facility), administrative staff costs (after all, somebody has to make sure that the dealers you're selling the stuff to are paying you for it, as well as folks doing payroll, administering benefits packages, etc...) office supplies, all the daily costs of doing business, and you'll find that to survive selling something made of 'only $60 worth of parts' takes more gross income than you think. [quote]Originally posted by Steve LeBlanc: [b]I could care less...all of these guys are overcharging us for gear, I know the market sets the price to a certain degree but c'mon none of this stuff is worth what it goes for in materials/labor. I find it disgusting that it costs as much as it does for good equipment, sorry if that doesn't gel with the livelyhood of many of our members. :D [/b][/quote][/b][/quote]OK Dad :D Yeah...I no nothing at all about business :rolleyes: ...fuck you for that assumption. You really don't know enough about me to talk down like that...despite my long-hair and free loving attitude I've had some experience in business. I worked in accounting for a very large company for 5 years. Remember the this is the internet...things aren't always as they appear. Regardless...Equipment is overpriced...I wasn't going into detail on exactly how much each piece of gear is price-inflated but I stand by my original statement. It sucks is all...I really don't care...I'm going to make the best music I can with the best equipment I can afford anyway...most of the time that means traveling back in time to when shit was made better anyway.
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[quote]Originally posted by Steve LeBlanc: [b]...Equipment is overpriced... ...I'm going to make the best music I can with the best equipment I can afford anyway...[/b][/quote]You got it Steve. Often...great music is made with so-called "cheap", "pro-sumer" gear. It's only when having to impress colleagues/clients that we "down play" the use of any "cheap gear" for "serious" music making.

miroslav - miroslavmusic.com

 

"Just because it happened to you, it doesn't mean it's important."

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Gosh, nice language and attitude for an accountant. I stand by my statement, too. So there. Now, if you want to talk about reality, and your perception of just why and how good equipment is overpriced, I'm more than willing to go there. Seems to me you've got your own truckload of assumptions, as well, though. Just saying. "I've had some experience in business" doesn't cut it. Ever done any hardware/software development? Know anything about the cost of UL, CE, FCC certification? Any idea if what it actually costs to bring a product to market and maintain it once it's out there? What's your idea of an acceptable gross margin for a company? What's your expected ROI? What's the expected lifespan of your product in the market, and how long will it take to payback its development cost? Since you were an accountant, you must know about those things, and how they apply in the real world. Please, educate the rest of us, since you make great over-generalized statements, lets see some cites. Got a case study? Or are you just talking out your ass? Smells like methane to me. [quote]Originally posted by Steve LeBlanc: [b][OK Dad :D Yeah...I no nothing at all about business :rolleyes: ...fuck you for that assumption. You really don't know enough about me to talk down like that...despite my long-hair and free loving attitude I've had some experience in business. I worked in accounting for a very large company for 5 years. Remember the this is the internet...things aren't always as they appear. Regardless...Equipment is overpriced...I wasn't going into detail on exactly how much each piece of gear is price-inflated but I stand by my original statement. It sucks is all...I really don't care...I'm going to make the best music I can with the best equipment I can afford anyway...most of the time that means traveling back in time to when shit was made better anyway.[/b][/quote]
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[quote]Originally posted by GeorgeVW: [b]Gosh, nice language and attitude for an accountant. I stand by my statement, too. So there. Now, if you want to talk about reality, and your perception of just why and how good equipment is overpriced, I'm more than willing to go there. Seems to me you've got your own truckload of assumptions, as well, though. Just saying. "I've had some experience in business" doesn't cut it. Ever done any hardware/software development? Know anything about the cost of UL, CE, FCC certification? Any idea if what it actually costs to bring a product to market and maintain it once it's out there? What's your idea of an acceptable gross margin for a company? What's your expected ROI? What's the expected lifespan of your product in the market, and how long will it take to payback its development cost? Since you were an accountant, you must know about those things, and how they apply in the real world. Please, educate the rest of us, since you make great over-generalized statements, lets see some cites. Got a case study? Or are you just talking out your ass? Smells like methane to me. [quote]Originally posted by Steve LeBlanc: [b][OK Dad :D Yeah...I no nothing at all about business :rolleyes: ...fuck you for that assumption. You really don't know enough about me to talk down like that...despite my long-hair and free loving attitude I've had some experience in business. I worked in accounting for a very large company for 5 years. Remember the this is the internet...things aren't always as they appear. Regardless...Equipment is overpriced...I wasn't going into detail on exactly how much each piece of gear is price-inflated but I stand by my original statement. It sucks is all...I really don't care...I'm going to make the best music I can with the best equipment I can afford anyway...most of the time that means traveling back in time to when shit was made better anyway.[/b][/quote][/b][/quote]Either you're losing money or overcharging...I don't care which but your defensive attitude is uncalled for. Remember I just said I think gear in general is overpriced...I didn't say YOUR gear (whatever it is). You already know from my earlier posts that I don't want to discuss it in detail so why are you asking me to discuss it in detail? I'm not going to talk business 101 here...dude I know it costs money to run a business...why are you argueing with me anyway? We're mostly experienced adults here, my very broad statement is just that, everyone here can make up their own minds about the details. You have the burden of proof here...I'm a customer. Why is a Bass Pod Pro $250 more than a regular Bass Pod? Looking at your website...it looks like you jam at Awesome Audio (am I right?), if so, say Hi to James for me.
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I'm not sure how IBM and Apple get credit when Zerox developed the first windows type GUI and Amega was the first true software [i]multitasking[/i] windows computer. As far as Behringer, it depends on if you want something that sounds average and last a year, or something that sounds good and last many years. You get what you pay for and Behringer cuts more cost by parts than by stealing R&D. When Japanise cars first came out they were horrible. 20 years later they were quality. It may take Behringer 20 years, or they could just be the modern "Peavy" of the industry. Does anyone remember NAMM 20 years ago when Japanise companies ran around taking pictures with infrared film hoping to get information on design of products that were being shown but had not yet been released? Robert
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[quote]So, let me get this straight. You see no problem in what Behringer does? If so, what incentive does a company have to spend money in researching and designing a product if someone can just reverse engineer it consequence free? That's why we have patents and other laws to protect peoples work[/quote]First off, I'm with you on this. But name me a guitar manufacturer that doesn't have a Les Paul or Stratocaster model (besides Gibson/Epip or Fender/Squire who don't have the other's) Ibanez grew their entire company off of early clones of Pauls and Teles that were horrible, yet ALOT of players play Ibanezes now.
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