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Music vs. Context


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Some nice food for thought from Brian Eno... Hopefully, no one will mind me posting the article in full (it was found [url=http://music.hyperreal.org/artists/brian_eno/interviews/Miles.html]here[/url] .) [quote] [b]thinking about miles davis in an un-miles davis like way[/b] (from The Wire Dec./Jan. 1993) When you listen to Miles Davis, how much of what you hear is music, and how much is context? Another way of saying that is, 'What would you be hearing if you didn't know you were listening to Miles Davis?' I think of context as everything that isn't physically contained in the grooves of the record, and in his case that seems quite a lot. It includes your knowledge, first of all, that everyone else says he's great: that must modify the way you hear him. But it also includes a host of other strands: that he was a handsome and imposing man, a member of a romantic minority, that he played with Charlie Parker, that he spans generations, that he underwent various addictions, that he married Cicely Tyson, that he dressed well, that Jean-Luc Godard liked him, that he wore shades and was very cool, that he himself said little about his work, and so on. Surely all that affects how you hear him: I mean, could it possibly have felt the same if he'd been an overweight heating engineer from Oslo? When you listen to music, Aren't you also 'listening' to all the stuff around it, too? How important is that to the experience you' re having, and is it differently important with different musics, different artists? Miles was an intelligent man, by all accounts, and must have become increasingly aware of the power of his personal charisma, especially in the later years as he watched his reputation grow over his declining trumpeting skills. Perhaps he said to himself: 'These people are hearing a lot more context than music, so perhaps I accept that I am now primarily a context maker. My art is not just what comes out of the end of my trumpet or appears on a record, but a larger experience which is intimately connected to who I appear to be, to my life and charisma, to the Miles Davis story." In that scenario, the 'music', the sonic bit, could end up being quite a small part of the whole experience. Developing the context- the package, the delivery system, the buzz, the spin, the story - might itself become the art. Like perfume... Professional critics in particular find such suggestions objectionable. They have invested heavily in the idea that music itself offers intrinsic, objective, self contained criteria that allow you to make judgments of worthiness. In the pursuit of True Value and other things with capital letters, they reject as immoral the idea that an artist could be 'manipulative' in this way. It seems to them cynical: they want to believe: to be certain that this was The Truth, a pure expression of spirit wrought in sound. They want it to 'out there', 'real', but now they're getting the message that what its worth is sort of connected with how much they're prepared to take part in the fabrication of a story about it. Awful! To discover that you're actually a co-conspirator in the creation of value, caught in the act of make-believe. 'How can it be worth anything if I did it myself?' I remember seeing a thing on TV years ago. An Indonesian shaman was treating sick people by apparently reaching into their bodies and pulling out bloody rags which he claimed were the cause of their disease. It all took place in dim light, in smoky huts, after intense incantations. A Western team filmed him with infrared cameras and, of course, were able to show that he was performing a conjuring trick. He wasn't taking anything out of their bodies after all. So he was a fake, no? Well, maybe-- but his patients kept getting better. He was healing by context-- making a psychological space where people somehow got themselves well. The rag was just a prop. Was Miles, with a trumpet as a prop, making a place where we, in our collective imaginations, could somehow have great musical experiences? I think so. Thanks, Miles, and thanks everyone else who took part, too. BRIAN ENO [/quote] Whaddya think?
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Well, I gotta tell you...I don't agree at all, and here's why. I got turned on to Miles Davis in the late 60s. I was listening to the radio and a piece of music came out ("Sssh...Peaceful" from In a Silent Way) that absolutely floored me. I was transfixed, delighted, entranced, and had zero idea of who it was. I ran to the nearest phone, called up the radio station, and found out that it was Miles Davis. (The deejay's reaction to my question was about the same as if I'd asked what color the sky is -- like how could I be so stupid as to not know who that was?) I then went to the record store and got In a Silent Way, as well as several older albums, and became a major Miles Davis fan (which I remain to this day). But it had nothing to do with his rep or his charisma, just the music.
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I've read this before, I respect Brian Eno, his album with Jon Hassel "Possible Musics" really touched me at one time but I really disagree with him. I think the Brian is right about the average listener in some cases but I think he takes it too far. My son is only 2 years old but he already has more appreciation for certain music over others. I rarely tell him who he's listening to...he doesn't know the peripheral histories of Mozart, Steve Reich, Aaron Copeland, Miles Davis, James Brown, etc. but he makes it clear what music he likes/doesn't like. I even find Brian's sweeping thoughts somewhat [b]insulting[/b]...it's funny (actually strange) he uses Miles as an example...I mean Miles was always pushing the envelope musically and using the talents of younger fresh players to complete the sound. To say that music was liked/respected because of the context of Miles' life experience is way lame. Miles' music forced me to find out more about the man, not the other way around. When I fell in love with "Kind of Blue" and "Bitches' Brew" it was because I found a couple of LPs at a yardsale (I actually bought 50 albums of various artists that day), I didn't even have the album covers to influence my opinion of the music. Just the needle coming down on the vinyl and producing some of the most wondrous sounds I ever could have imagined...music is more than peripherals/context...if Brian Eno could figure this out maybe he'd stop making the crappy trite pop crap he does for U2 and start to discover what it's really about. [quote]I mean, could it possibly have felt the same if he'd been an overweight heating engineer from Oslo?[/quote] YES! I've found music on the internet that is made by a very similar type of person that just completely blows me away. (I didn't know the guy was or what he looked like until I was finished listening, the music forced me to find out more about the person) [quote]especially in the later years as he watched his reputation grow over his declining trumpeting skills.[/quote] hmmm...Miles often made it clear in interviews, etc. that his skills declined greatly when he took time off...but very late in his career it's clear he not only got a lot of those skills back but improved on them in many respects. Listen to "Amandla" or especially "Doo-Bop" there is some incredible blowing on those albums. Whatever...I think corporate greed takes advantage of the fact that people are easily swayed by context...hence the popularity of bands like U2, Brittney Spears, Matchbox 20, etc...but it doesn't have to be that way and is surely not a rule in the way Eno seems to think.
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This article got me thinking -- not really about Miles Davis, who I do appreciate on a musical level -- but about all of the artists I enjoy. Is it *really* [i]just[/i] about the music? Or is there an element of some Andy Warhol-ish "selling of a concept" going on? It might not be a conscious thing by the artist (like "I accept that I am now primarily a context maker" thing that Eno mentions), but something in the image or story behind the artist that makes me read more into the music than there really is... Or relate more to the music moreso than another artist who I don't have as much in common with. I dunno, I'm still processing how I feel about this idea. Again, I'm not really using Miles as the example here, but applying the same idea to other artists... And if I like an artist mostly not for the notes but the context, is that wrong?
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I'm in agreement with Anderton... It's the same as when I heard Stevie Ray Vaughn for the first time. I was just mesmerized, hypnotized and hell bent on finding out who the guitarist was. His playing instantly became a part of my life and I immediately knew the significance! I'd later found out that he lived life very immaturely and was headed forself destruction with drugs and booze, but it didn't change how I felt about his music, much in the same way Donny Hathaway's suicide didn't change how I felt about his MUSIC. Or to put it in a Trumpet players context, I heard Arturro Sandival for the first time and felt almost the same as I had for SRV, when I heard he was a Latin legend I couldn't possibly be impressed any more or any less.....the guy was a burner flat out!! Which was all that mattered.
TROLL . . . ish.
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[quote]Again, I'm not really using Miles as the example here, but applying the same idea to other artists...[/quote] I just know I can come up with numerous examples of music that grabbed me without any other context being involved. Maybe this is part of what is wrong with some music today...it's sold with Visuals and other context based advertising...MTV killed the radio star...did they kill the popularity of expressive/challenging music too? [img]http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img] How many kids today have a CD collection that is entirely made up of artists they discovered on their TV? Pretty scary stuff for guys like me [img]http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/wink.gif[/img]...I used to work with a guy who would search the radio dial for music he heard on VH1...he told me he liked being reminded of the images he saw in the videos while driving home from work. The music was almost secondary...Is this a good thing? I don't think so. It's kinda like choosing Movies over Books...I love movies but I've never enjoyed one as much as a good book. How many kids today read a book without being forced to by their school teacher? The points that Brian Eno is right about can be Cancerous to creativity, without creative exploration intelligence is lost too. If you haven't read 1984 recently...pull it out and read it again taking breaks to reflect on the present...this is important stuff. (If you don't own the book, SHAME [img]http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/wink.gif[/img], go buy it now).
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[quote]Originally posted by Steve LeBlanc: [b] I just know I can come up with numerous examples of music that grabbed me without any other context being involved. Maybe this is part of what is wrong with some music today...it's sold with Visuals and other context based advertising...MTV killed the radio star...did they kill the popularity of expressive/challenging music too? [img]http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img] [/b][/quote] I know what you're getting at, and if you looked through my CD collection, you'd be hard pressed to find much stuff that was played on MTV. Not that that's some sort of badge of honor, but... [img]http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif[/img] I'm getting at something similar to the thread I posted about rabid fan loyalty... Usually for me, the music certainly does make an impact first. However, after some digging about the artist (whether through interviews, web sites, magazines, liner notes, whatever), I'm wondering if the step between saying, "Wow -- I think I really like this person's music" and "Wow -- I really [i]dig[/i] this person's music, and I'll probably like whatever they release next" isn't sometimes influenced by context. The context could be... * Man, that guy is a badass (a lot of gangsta rap seems to play up this) * That singer sure is cute * That's so cool -- I bet those two are boyfriend/girlfriend (see Fleetwood Mac) * That's so cool -- they're a married couple and they're singing about how much they love each other (see Fleetwood Mac) * That's so cool -- they're a married couple and they're singing about how much they can't stand each other (see Fleetwood Mac, Richard/Linda Thompson) * Mystery -- who the heck are these people and what planet did they come from? (see The Residents) * That artist has had some really rough personal times and recovered from them and is still going strong (see anybody who's been on "Behind the Music") None of these things have anything to do with the music, but yet -- at least by Eno's definition -- they have as much to do with the music as the notes that are being played. So it's not necessarily as simple as if someone wears cool clothes or can do some dance moves, although you could certainly interpret it that way... This message has been edited by popmusic on 08-22-2001 at 04:00 PM
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Yep but there are still tons of holes in Eno's 'theory'. Ian Anderson has always been cool but VERY few people get Jethro Tull's new music...I don't like most of it but the drummer shreds so some of it gets me. Paul McCartney is seen as a GOD to many people because of context...I loved The Beatles but have always thought them at least somewhat overrated...regardless of my opinion Context certainly has something to do with the over the top status of Paul McCartney. BUT...Paul's new stuff doesn't do much for too many people...yeah diehard fans buy the album because it's Paul but I imagine most are pretty disappointed. Eric Clapton. Guitar God? Well I NEVER saw him as that, the hype didn't work on me. I've seen some live shows where Eric really ripped it up but I'm always surprised because IMO most of the time he's not quite there. People buy into his music partly because of who he is but if he sways too far from his 'bread and butter' blues roots people will stop listening. I was going to go on with more examples but I think I'm losing my train of thought on this...or at least getting too broad. My biggest disagreement comes from what I think is an oversimplification of the effects music has on different individuals. AND besides the fact that I loathed the image of Fleetwood Mac and all the hype that went with them...I really like some of their songs...especially Tusk.
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i love music. i like the power of music as an artistic medium. i like music more for art's sake than for music's sake, though. this has a lot to do with why i like musically simple material that is more emotionally expressive (e.g. smashing pumpkins) rather than musically challenging material that has little to do with emotions ([b]robert fripp[/b]). i have more admiration for a musician who, as an artist, is really able to bring the concept to its full potential with things like extra stories and writings, pictures and artwork, and moving video images that accompany the music. in that respect, i don't think it's insulting at all to suggest that context is as important as the music. [b]really, what are lyrics but context in which to seat the music?[/b] still, music is powerful. with no lyrics and no attempt at artistic expression, i am transfixed by the music of stan kenton. the music that came from his orchestra, in my experience, still pushes the boundaries of popular music now, nevermind that it was written over fifty years ago. however, chuck mangione's [i]children of sanchez[/i] means a lot more to me knowing that over 24 and a half hours of music were composed, recorded, mixed, and produced in under two weeks. that kind of information increases my respect for the quality of the music and the expression of the music, and it increases my enjoyment of the music, and my appreciation for the fact that it exists at all. [b]for me, part of what makes music good is that it conveys some sort of meaning and emotion, and is more than cold, intellectual exercise.[/b] one might say (and one is saying that) that is context.
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The shaman story was an odd connection to me. I don't put a whole lot of weight with celebs talking up abstracts. Give me something concrete Eno.
Down like a dollar comin up against a yen, doin pretty good for the shape I'm in
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<> I feel ya, this is much along the lines of when I worked at an R & B studio in Philly in the 80's. . .I gained MUCH more respect for artist's like Lou Rawls and Stephanie Mills because 90% of there songs(with us), there vocals were done in ONE take!!
TROLL . . . ish.
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Why doesn't Brian Eno just come out and say "HEY FELLAS, I'M A BIG PUSSY!" My guess is that he met Miles somewhere and Miles told Brian that Brian sucked, like he does! I think Miles was probly kind of a goof too from what i read in his auto(semi) Biography. But who Cares! Unfortunatley there are alot of people who can't get past someones image and listen to the music that the person is responsible for. Miles' vision was way way beyond anything Little Brian eno could ever come up with. What a joke. Here's a few names for ya, i have picked these because they were bands whose integrity i was always defening to my pop music listening friends while growing up.... -Prince -Boy George -Frankie goes to hollywood -Bronski beat How many of you sneer at any or all of those names? How many of you have ever or will ever come close to writing or performing music that is that developed? Ok well i think brian is doing that very thing one level up. I feel sorry for anyone who can't hear what Miles was about. I cried the day he died. And it wasn't because i thought he was a cool guy.
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[quote]Why doesn't Brian Eno just come out and say "HEY FELLAS, I'M A BIG PUSSY!" My guess is that he met Miles somewhere and Miles told Brian that Brian sucked, like he does![/quote] haha [img]http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif[/img] I like all the guys you mentioned, especially Prince and I've defended his music many times.
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I think there is truth in what Eno is saying but for me the mystique surrounding a charismatic musician only adds to the enjoyment of the music. I'm only interested in knowing about someone whose music I enjoy also, so the music comes first for me. I think that the music industry has tried to sell performers whose music amounts to practically nothing and this is where I have a problem. It is a clever scheme but I haven't any interest in the pop stars who are not much more than a marketing vehicle. I respect Eno's work too. The albums he produced with David Bowie, The Talking Heads, U2 and his solo albums are excellent and were all groundbreaking and original. I'm sure he spent a lot of time listening to Miles Davis also. He's making a mistake to deny any debt to Miles for opening up a lot of territory for musicians that followed him not to mention the inspiration that works like Bitches Brew and In A Silent Way must have provided for Eno as they did for myself and so many other musicians. And we weren't just inspired by Miles's suits, it was the music that turned us on. Maybe Eno is getting fed up with the lack of trailblazing that predominates the scene now, particularly among the most popular releases. I think he should just try to hop another wave and go for one more ride instead of just being washed up on the beach. Maybe he could inspire us again. ------------------ Mac Bowne G-Clef Acoustics Ltd. Osaka, Japan My Music: [url=http://www.javamusic.com/freedomland]www.javamusic.com/freedomland[/url]

Mac Bowne

G-Clef Acoustics Ltd.

Osaka, Japan

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I think context in music is more important to people who grew up post-MTV. It's funny - I think MTV has had a more profound cultural impact on America than anything else has in recent times, and social anthropologists 100 years from now are going to look back at this little window of time (which I think we're now on the other side of) and wonder just how thinking changed and the nature of that change in the 80's. No one considers keeping a record of the perception of a generation at the cusp of such a change. ------------------ [b]New and Improved Music Soon:[/b] http://www.mp3.com/chipmcdonald

Guitar Lessons in Augusta Georgia: www.chipmcdonald.com

Eccentric blog: https://chipmcdonaldblog.blogspot.com/

 

/ "big ass windbag" - Bruce Swedien

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I definitely have mixed feelings about the article... especially in how it uses Miles as an example. From other things Eno's written, he does appear to enjoy (and be influenced) by Miles' stuff (actually, it seems like he's more influenced by Teo Macero than Miles). On the other hand, the article comes across as a bit of a backhanded compliment to the music Miles played (especially considering Miles died in '91 and this article is from '93)... And seems to ignore that there is much musical value in subtlety or understatement (which is something I would think Eno of all people could relate to). Taking Miles out of the equation though, I think the points he makes about context are valid... I just wonder if he was trying to apply his theory to the wrong artist. Here's some examples of context I thought of which have helped me appreciate the music more than just the notes on the record... And nearly all of the music here is pre-MTV: * When Marvin Gaye recorded the vocal tracks for the song [url=http://www.cdnow.com/cgi-bin/mserver/SID=469222136/pagename=/RP/CDN/FIND/album.html/artistid=GAYE*MARVIN/itemid=493846]Let's Get it On[/url] , apparently it was the same night he met his 18-year-old-wife-to-be (his second wife). According to what I've read, he was singing directly to *her* in the studio while he was recording vocals for that song. I never listened to "Let's Get it On" in the same way once I knew the context. * On the surface, Marvin Gaye's [url=http://www.cdnow.com/cgi-bin/mserver/SID=469222136/pagename=/RP/CDN/FIND/album.html/artistid=GAYE*MARVIN/itemid=307423]Here My Dear[/url] is a bizarre '70s R&B album... But once you know the album was created as part of a divorce settlement and that the lyrics are [i]extremely[/i] personal (they tell you a little more than you probably want to know), there's much more depth to the album... I'd venture to say it's probably my favorite Marvin Gaye album because I understand the context and the album seems much deeper because of it. If you were to take the album at face value (as many critics did when the album was released), you'd probably scratch your head in bewilderment. * Eric Clapton's "Layla" or "Tears in Heaven"... Would either of these songs be as popular if listeners didn't know the stories behind them? * If you didn't know about Brian Wilson's breakdown in the '70s (i.e. not leaving the house, having a piano in the sandbox, etc.), would "In My Room" seem as poignant (or prophetic)? Would [url=http://www.cdnow.com/cgi-bin/mserver/SID=469222136/pagename=/RP/CDN/FIND/album.html/ArtistID=BEACH+BOYS/ITEMID=327773]Pet Sounds[/url] be as critically praised in retrospect if the listener wasn't aware that Brian Wilson was only a few years away from a mental breakdown? Would the unreleased "Smile" tapes be as highly regarded if you didn't know of the theory that the Smile album was supposed to do the same thing to popular music in 1967 that "Sgt. Pepper's" did? * Would Sinatra's rendition of "My Way" (or many other of his songs) be as affecting if you didn't know anything about his wives, divorces, etc.? (I keep thinking of that limo driver in "Spinal Tap"... "When you’ve loved and lost the way Frank has, then you know what life’s about... No one can sing the subtext of a song the way he can." [img]http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif[/img] ) * Brian Eno said his sampling-heavy album [url=http://www.cdnow.com/cgi-bin/mserver/SID=469222136/pagename=/RP/CDN/FIND/album.html/ArtistID=BYRNE*DAVID%5CBRIAN+ENO/ITEMID=425548]My Life in the Bush of Ghosts[/url] would not have made as big of an impact had it been released four years later. It seems that by saying this, even Eno admits the album is held in high regard not for the actual music, but for when it was released. This message has been edited by popmusic on 08-23-2001 at 04:38 AM
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The bottom line for me is that while he makes some interesting observations, which are things that I've noticed myself as well, he seriously undermines his point with the staggeringly poor example of Miles Davis. It makes one wonder what issues are lurking beneath the surface, rather than advancing his ideas in any meaningful way. Maybe Eno missed his true calling as a Rock Journalist [img]http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif[/img]
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[quote]Originally posted by Sal Orlando: [b]It makes one wonder what issues are lurking beneath the surface, rather than advancing his ideas in any meaningful way. Maybe Eno missed his true calling as a Rock Journalist [img]http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif[/img][/b][/quote] OK, I'm going to go waaaaaaaay out on a limb here, but I'm wondering if there is a different attitude that the UK has towards Miles Davis vs. the US... [url=http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a.tcl?topic=I%20Love%20Music]I Love Music[/url] is a message board frequented by music lovers and critics... The majority appear to be from the UK, and if you read threads like [url=http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=005lrF]this one[/url] and [url=http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=0065XH]this one[/url] it [i]might[/i] shed some light on the way Miles is looked at in the UK...? But then again, maybe not -- these are rock/pop fans/critics talking about jazz. I dunno -- the fact that someone posted the question "Did you get into jazz via an artist other than Miles Davis" might offer some insight as to either his popularity or the way his music was marketed in the UK. In the US, it seems like a silly question to ask -- unless you're into jazz already, it's very possible to be an American and not consciously listen to Miles Davis' music. (You unfortunately can't avoid hearing Kenny G, but it is possible to pretty much avoid Miles... At least, I know a lot of folks who have.) This message has been edited by popmusic on 08-23-2001 at 06:36 AM
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[quote]No one considers keeping a record of the perception of a generation at the cusp of such a change.[/quote] I think that you are overlooking the fact that the media we have now is documenting history in a way that was never before possible. Our entire modern culture is being recorded and archived and will be available to future generations for examination. I just hope that the human race can resume upward evolution though so that the future historians don't look back at this time as a high point in art and culture. If we keep going in the current direction this could be the case. Hey all you people with kids- please let them listen to good music and see real art or we're doomed! ------------------ Mac Bowne G-Clef Acoustics Ltd. Osaka, Japan My Music: [url=http://www.javamusic.com/freedomland]www.javamusic.com/freedomland[/url]

Mac Bowne

G-Clef Acoustics Ltd.

Osaka, Japan

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Well I see his point, even though I hadn't bothered to find out who Brian Eno was until this thread ... or should I say within this context? [img]http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif[/img] Context changes everything, it changes the way you perceive any music. For example, listening to Miles Davis in my office cubicle, vs listening to him in a beautiful hacienda while on vacation Mexico sure changes the way I perceive and appreciate the song. But I think Brian Eno missed something which is really important. Really good music will continue to be good in different contexts, even if you perceive it differently, it's still gonna sound good in that other context. In fact, I'd say in order to really appreciate good music, you have to listen to in different contexts, or you'll never really get. That's probably why MTV music tends to suck so bad, the music is limited to a very narrow set of contexts. Yet you can play Mozart almost anywhere and it will still enhance the context [img]http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img]
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<> I agree with you there, but that's not the context to which Eno referred. As to some of the other issues...I heard Layla before I knew what it was about, and thought it was great. A song like "Tears in Heaven," or "Layla," touches a fundamental human experience to which we can all relate...Eric Clapton is not the only person in the world to have dealt with tragedy. Finding out that a song was inspired by an event that's detailed in the lyrics seems like a no-brainer. <> This is a well-known phenomenon known as the placebo effect. Calling it context is a bit of stretch. I would also be willing to bet that not all of his patients got better, which is another consistent aspect of the placebo effect: it doesn't work for everyone. I really can't see what this has to do with music appreciation. << Was Miles, with a trumpet as a prop, making a place where we, in our collective imaginations, could somehow have great musical experiences?>> Call me backward, but what makes Miles' music great is the way it sounds. Anyone who thinks that a fat heating engineer from Oslo can't make music that lives on its own merits is condescending to the max. The one thing where I think there is some merit is if someone's charisma gets you interested in checking out their music in the first place. But trust me, if you listen to the music and don't like it, you're not going to convince yourself you like it after all because someone looked cool. Good example: J Lo. I was curious what kind of music she made because she's gotten so much press. There was plenty of favorable context. But the music doesn't make it for me. Case closed.
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