OT - Is Acupuncture for real?

[BassGuy]

My girlfriend's an acupuncturist, so I've been learning a lot about it. It does work, more effectively for some people than for others. As with Western medicine, you'll want to find a practitioner who will seriously listen to your questions and provide good explanations. You should also be sure to find an acupuncturist who says up front that they want to try a course of treatments, then after, say, ten weeks, review what to do next: whether to continue the treatment, try something different with acupuncture, or give up on the acupuncture treatments. Shoot me a private message if you'd like me to pass it along to my girlfriend.

[gearmike]

[quote]Originally posted by BassGuy: [b]My girlfriend's an acupuncturist, so I've been learning a lot about it. [/b][/quote]I love that. It reminds me of that scene in Pulp Fiction where Jules says, "My girlfriend's a vegetarian, so that pretty much makes me one too." Mike

[cg1155]

Hey, I'm having a good time here so I'll keep on offering useless medical knowledge. TheWewus: I'm not in the insurance business, I'm a medical student at Penn State, I will have my MD in 2004 and if you want to confirm any of this you can look me up at [url=http://www.hmc.psu.edu]www.hmc.psu.edu[/url] (search Glass, Casey). There are several different models by which insurance companies pay doctors or other healthcare providers. You never hear about them because they don't really affect you as the patient (or at least that's the idea). One of these methods is capitation, where the insurance company pays the doctor a set amount each year for each patient, regardless of how much healthcare that patient needs. Others still pay per procedure or office visit. In an HMO the insurance company is actually the doctor's employer, that doctor is salaried by the HMO. In any of these cases the brunt of your health care costs are paid up-front with your insurance premium, so in my opinon it's in your best interest to get the health care you've already paid for! Of course if you don't have insurance then this doesn't apply to you. Once again, these are all arrangements between insurers and healthcare providers, so you have no input into the situation, it's not something you can select as part of your insurance plan or anything like that. All of them were developed after HMO's were legalized in the 70's to help bring down health care costs (which haven't come down - we still spend more and get less than any other industrialized nation). Regarding glucosamine, the only article I could find showed that they lowered cholesterol. [url=http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=3884410&dopt=Abstract]The effectiveness of glycosaminoglycans in peripheral vascular disease therapy: a clinical and experimental trial.[/url] Kris: Although I'm afraid I'm making a name for myself in defending bad doctors, it is normal to check patients with joint problems for looseness in their joints (everyone's different here) and to do that you do try to actually dislocate the joint. Regarding glucosamine being absorbed through the skin - I don't think this is possible based on the simple physics of it - glucosamine is hydrophyllic (think water) and skin is oily so it is unlikely that glucosamine will get through the skin to a joint. In any event it's going to hit the bloodstream and get whisked away to some other part of the body long before it hits the joint even if it does get through the skin. I am not aware of any scientific evidence (I just did a search) that supports the claim that oral glucosamine is not absorbed and used. There is evidence that oral glucosamine is beneficial in a number of diseases. -Casey

[nitecrawler47]

Before you go under the knife, try acupuncture. Its non evasive and I have found it works for me. If you find that it doesn't work then go under the knife. My suggestion is to investigate before you make a commitment to a course of treatment. With surgery you can't go back! nitecrawler ;)

[cg1155]

incidentally, it's really easy to search published scientific literature at the website I referenced above. It's called Pubmed, it's run by the National Institutes of Health, and catalogs every article published in the health sciences that they can get their hands on, english and foreign. A lot of it is medicine-speak but there is also a lot that non-medicine people can understand. The index is really very comprehensive, when I'm writing articles it's what I use. -Casey

[Kris]

[quote]Originally posted by cg1155: [b] Kris: Although I'm afraid I'm making a name for myself in defending bad doctors, it is normal to check patients with joint problems for looseness in their joints (everyone's different here) and to do that you do try to actually dislocate the joint. [/b][/quote]A really bad idea in my experience! [quote]Originally posted by cg1155: [b] Regarding glucosamine being absorbed through the skin - I don't think this is possible based on the simple physics of it - glucosamine is hydrophyllic (think water) and skin is oily so it is unlikely that glucosamine will get through the skin to a joint. In any event it's going to hit the bloodstream and get whisked away to some other part of the body long before it hits the joint even if it does get through the skin. I am not aware of any scientific evidence (I just did a search) that supports the claim that oral glucosamine is not absorbed and used. There is evidence that oral glucosamine is beneficial in a number of diseases. -Casey[/b][/quote]Well they really had me sold on it... It seems like the point IS for it to hit the blood stream, then your body would use it where needed? Maybe you could give that number a call and investigate a bit more for us... I wouldn't know what to ask them really! Thanks .

[Kris]

Here is some info that I've found on the Glucosamine Cream... [url=http://freelit.com/f_090/]"Glucosamine Cream web page"[/url] They say that the Emu Oil is how the glucosamine is absorbed directly through the skin... To me this sounds like something to check out, at the very least for its pain killing/anti inflamatory ingredients... plus the doctor is a hottie!!!

[cg1155]

Ok Kris, I have a chance to evaluate some of these claims. All quotes are from the website you link above. First: [quote]These statements have not been evaluated by the FDA. This product is not intended to diagnose, treat, prevent or cure any disease. [/quote]This should be a warning to you . . . [quote]MSM is methylsulfonylmethane, an organic sulfur and the fourth most plentiful mineral found in the body. MSM may help promote the process of collagen synthesis. [/quote]While [i]sulfur[/i] is the third most common chemical in the body by weight (it is part of some proteins) MSM is not. Searching Pubmed I could find no evidence supporting or even suggesting this claim. I did find these two articles, one says basically that there is no evidence that this works (although there is also none saying it doesn't) and another saying that this stuff goes into your brain! I don't know about you, but I would be careful taking something that goes into my brain when I don't know what it does. [url=http://www.health.harvard.edu/medline/Health/L0800e.html]Harvard Health Letter on MSM[/url] [url=http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=11641045&dopt=Abstract]Accumulation of methylsulfonylmethane in the human brain: identification by multinuclear magnetic resonance spectroscopy.[/url] [quote]Glucosamine sulfate is a substance found naturally in the human body.[/quote]This is true, and it has been proven to be at least moderately effective in joint therapy when taken orally, but I still don't see it getting through the skin, and even if it did it would hit the bloodstream before it got to the joint, and be gone . . . [quote]Pregnenolone is a natural hormone that may also help with pain.[/quote]Pregnenolone is naturally ocurring, but it's nothing to toy with. It is the steroid precursor to almost all the other body steroids (testosterone, cortisone, estrogen, progesterone, all the -ones). When used medically they reduce inflammation and the immune response. This is great if you have Rheumatic arthritis since it reduces imflammation of the joint but it also makes you more susceptible to infections and long term use can really mess you up. It is not likely you could get enough of it through the cream to get these types of effects, but you are likely to get thinning and weakening of the skin in the application area. [quote]Emu oil naturally contains lenolenic acid, which has pain-killing properties, and the anti-inflammatory, oleic acid.[/quote]This may be true, but I couldn't find anything really convincing, just this one article. [url=http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=8856792&dopt=Abstract]Effects of unsaturated fatty acids on expression of early response genes in human T lymphocytes.[/url] [quote]Boswellia has been used traditionally as a natural anti-inflammatory which may produce benefits similar to aspirin.[/quote]I found a few articles that suggest that this is true, but it has lots of other effects too. I don't know if they are good or not. Is it worth $90 for 12 ounces? I don't think so, it's not so different from other over-the-counter joint aids (i.e. icy-hot, etc.) I stand by my comment that this stuff is unlikely to ever make it into the joint in the first place. Believe me, if it was easy to get stuff into joints by putting it on the skin over the joint we'd be doing it all the time - we don't try to make medicine hard or nasty. While some of the ingredients do appear to be legit, there is unlikely enough to produce a significant effect on the joint (provided my assertion that the bloodstream is involved is true). For example, in each 3 oz. tube there is only 5000mg of glucosamine, but in most clinical trials that show positive results subjects were taking 1500mg [i]per day[/i]. To get that much you would have to use one tube every three-4 days at about $25 a tube. Ouch. [quote]These statements have not been evaluated by the FDA.[/quote]I want to go back to this one for a minute. Supplements and herbals are just as much medicine as the stuff a doc writes a perscription for. The problem is that no one verifies that products are what they claim to be. Although the label for this cream says all that stuff is in there, you could get a stick of butter and be none the wiser. NO ONE IS LOOKING OUT FOR YOU. THERE IS NO REGULATION HERE. How would you like it if I sold you a porsche, but took the engine out and slipped in one from my Ford Escort. "Hey" you would say "this doesn't drive like a sports car!" but that's your bad luck, I am untouchable here. As a result these people have to put that FDA warning up there, that they can't claim that their stuff does anything, but they claim it anyway. Herbal stuff claims to be "natural" and "safer" than "traditional" medicine. Nothing could be farther from the truth. Everything is natural - there are only so many atoms and molecules in the world. It's not like we can whip something up from another dimension. The fact that people feel better when using herbals suggest that they do [i]something[/i] in the body, hmm, sounds like medicine to me. Now people assume that since Doctors are not so thrilled with herbals/etc. that there must be something to them and therefore they should use them. I'll be the first to tell you that there IS something to them - we just don't know what. It could be good. It could be bad. It could interact with your cholesterol medication and kill you. It could kill you anyway. We like to err on the side of caution. Believe it or not doctors (at least all the ones I've met) really do want to see people healthy, we want to see it with the least amount of medication and pain, and we take alternative medicine seriously. We just want to know exactly what it does, and we want to make sure you get exactly what you pay for. Tirade over. Casey

[Rader Ranch]

[quote]Originally posted by Ken/Eleven Shadows: [b] I've found that the best method of treatment for me has been St. John's neuromuscular therapy. Neuromuscular therapy involves deep tissue massage and manipulation of joints, fascia, ligaments, etc. (somewhat like rolfing in some regards), stretching of limbs, etc., and teaching the client to walk, sit, etc. better. [/b][/quote]doesn't this also describe the Alexander technique? anyone know how they differ?

[Kris]

Thanks for your views Casey

[alcohol_]

Casey wrote: "Herbal stuff claims to be "natural" and "safer" than "traditional" medicine. Nothing could be farther from the truth. Everything is natural " To which I say Amen. Great post Casey Whoever has chronic muscle problems should look into Myotherapy. Bonnie Prudden is not a mystic and her therapy is the consequence of observation. It ain't sexy and it ain't expensive. I've spent money on doctors, acupuncture chiropracty, Alenxander technique, cortisone shots - none of which gave me the relief of Myotherapy. It's not a cure. For me, it has provided relief of chronic tension in my shoulder muscles when I need it. And the admistration of the technique can be done by yourself for free, after you've learned how to do it, which is easy to learn.

[BassGuy]

GearMike, I'm glad my comment brought a smile to your face. When my girlfriend and I got together a couple of years ago, she was midway through her four year oriental medicine program. I helped her review her notes and study for her weekly tests, in the course of a couple of years of this I feel that a little bit of the information rubbed off on me. I experienced acupuncture treatments myself for the firt time, and was intrigued enough by their positive results to read about a dozen of her (very dense) textbooks, and another dozen or so layman's books about the subject. Since I excel at research, I helped her locate hundreds of articles online and in medical library journals (primarily about double-blind studies of acupuncture treatments, sham acupuncture, pharmaceutical treatments, and placebos), and worked with her to abstract material from some of them for her thesis, which I typed and edited. Other than that, I'm spouting off garbage from the top of my head with no basis of information, of course. :eek:

[Chip McDonald]

[quote]Originally posted by TheWewus: [b] Hey Chip: I read a little blurb in the paper last Sunday saying glucoasimine raises cholestorol greatly. [/b][/quote]I only used it for a few months, and I'm naturally skinny - and try to stay fit, so I don't see it as a concern. The way I'd look at it is a way to get to a point where you can train to get stronger so you don't need it anymore.

[Ethan Winer]

Casey, >> These statements have not been evaluated by the FDA. << > This should be a warning to you < No fooling! Thanks for the excellent posts. They are sorely needed. --Ethan