For Those Of You Who Think Hip Hop Is Evil...

[Curve Dominant]

...this should put things in perspective a bit: http://www.nytimes.com/2001/08/20/opinion/20HERB.html?0820inside Have a nice day! E [img]http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img]

[alphajerk]

damn you... post the stinkin article, i cant access that link. funny how its called 20HERB.html. LMAO.

[Rod S]

If there's one thing I DON'T like about the internet is that it puts people with twisted views in communication. I wonder if Chip has any insight or interesting stories about Bremen, Ga? I'm speechless. I don't think Hip Hop is evil, I just don't like what I've heard. Is this the rebound that people were talking about against today's music? Let me finish building the nuclear bomb shelter...

[alphajerk]

alright i read it. fucking idiots. just pathetic.

[rold]

For those who don't want to bother with the NYTimes registration: [quote] August 20, 2001 IN AMERICA High-Decibel Hate By BOB HERBERT "You kill all the niggers, and you gas all the Jews, Kill a gypsy and a Commie, too. You just killed a kike, don't it feel right? Goodness gracious, Third Reich." The hatemongers have gone global, aided by the Internet and the unmistakable drawing power of white power music. The music is mostly an amateurish mix of punk and heavy metal, with "vocalists" screaming and screeching lyrics like those above (from a song called "Third Reich," recorded by the Canadian band Rahowa, which is short for Racial Holy War). White power music is a growing phenomenon. Hammerfest 2000 didn't get a lot of news coverage, but it was the most successful white power concert in the U.S. last year. It was held in October and drew racist skinheads galore to the town of Bremen, Ga., which has a population of 4,500 and is about 50 miles west of Atlanta. Local officials are still embarrassed and reluctant to talk about the event. The two-day concert was a raging success for hard-core fans of Hitler and lynching and the developing ideology of "pan-Aryanism." A group called the Bully Boys drove the Nazi-saluting crowd into a frenzy with a song called "Six Million More." And all other references to the extermination of Jews and gays and the mass killing of blacks were warmly received. The Intelligence Project of the Southern Poverty Law Center, which tracks the activities of hate groups, reported that "Hammerfest 2000 drew fans from Austria, Canada, France, Ireland, the Netherlands and Spain, as well as from across the United States. The concert culminated months of worldwide networking by sponsors Panzerfaust Records and Resistance Records, the premier neo-Nazi music labels in the U.S." Call it the commodification of hate. In the new world order, everybody's an entrepreneur. It's just that some products are more egregious than others. The music helps the hatemongers in a number of ways. Proceeds from concerts, compact discs and related items help finance the operations of major neo-Nazi and racist revolutionary groups. And in conjunction with the Internet and the cheap air fares that have eased international travel, the music has helped link racist groups throughout Europe and the Americas. "The music has also been terribly, terribly important in bringing young kids into this movement," said Mark Potok, who edits Intelligence Report, a magazine published by the Intelligence Project. More than anything else, he said, the music is luring the new recruits. The crowds at the concerts sing along, dance, hurl one another into mosh pits, salute swastikas and shout "Heil Hitler." "I've talked to many people who have come out of this movement," Mr. Potok said. "To a man and to a woman, they say it was the music, more than any other influence, that brought them to the movement in the first place." The latest edition of Intelligence Report notes that "Internet-based `radio' shows stream racist music around the world at all hours of the day. In the U.S., racist music from 123 domestic bands and 229 foreign ones is available online from more than 40 distributors." Impressionable youngsters in Jackson, Miss., in Oldham, England (where race riots erupted in May), or in Krakow, Poland, can listen to the same racist music — songs about barbecuing Turks or hunting blacks or torturing Jews. The world is already ablaze with ethnic and religious hatred. So hate music, which deliberately encourages the violent tendencies of its practitioners and its fans, is fuel for an already raging fire. In the United States this music is protected by the same Constitution that allows me to speak freely in this column. So this is not a call for censorship. What is important is that people of good will be made aware of a phenomenon so corrosive to a free society. It shouldn't be allowed to flourish in the dark. You don't want to censor this garbage. But you do want to throw a spotlight on it.[/quote] Thanks Curve for posting that...made for some good head-shaking

[Philip OKeefe]

I don't care which group is promoting racism - Whites, Blacks, Asians, Hispanics, Jews, Arabs whatever - it's flat out wrong. And IMO, most racists I've met seem to be lacking in education, although certainly this doesn't apply to all of them. But many are racist because of the views and statements / attitudes of their parents and families when they were growing up. If we want to stop racism, or at least seriously diminish it, it's simple - tell your kids it is wrong. Tell them that just because someone looks different, or is of another race or culture, they are no better or worse than you are - they are people, just like you. Just because I don't really care for a lot of RAP doesn't mean that I think it is all evil... And I agree with the writer's final statements regarding the US Constitution - as much as I disagree with their views, I believe they have the right to state them... but people should be aware of what's going on. And if they use the proceeds from their record sales for illegal purposes, then the law should come down on them - hard. Not because of where the money came from, but because of the illegal actions. And while I agree with their rights to free speech, *I* still have the same right, and personally, I think they're a bunch of morons. Phil O'Keefe Sound Sanctuary Recording Riverside CA http://members.aol.com/ssanctuary/index.html email: pokeefe777@msn.com

[rumpelstiltskin.]

umm...what does racist punk have to do with hip-hop?

[strat0124]

Phil....nailed it. I find it odd that the media ignores all racist content, regardless of the source. Unfortunately most of America, and possibly the world identifies racism with poor uneducated southern whites...when that is only a fraction of the racism in this country. We could start with government, corporations, and move on down. It's also unfortunate that certain stereotypes are OK to make fun of, where others or not. It's a terrible double standard that I've fought to erase my entire life. If history tells us anything, racism seems to be a constant since the dawn of modern man.

[Chip McDonald]

[quote]Originally posted by Rod CA: [b] I wonder if Chip has any insight or interesting stories about Bremen, Ga? [/b][/quote] No, I've been there I think but I will not return. The thing that's important here is that one doesn't look at that as being something that will remain on the fringe. It looked like Europe was about to have a really, really bad problem with the rascists when this year started out - I don't know how it is now, but it's easy to forget that it regularly made the news for awhile there. The thing that scares me is that the south east is rapidly becoming a multicultural enclave, without any sort of concessions being made to education or "naturalization", so to speak. The U.S. government is operating a sham with the Mexican "border", and King George *has* to know about it - HIS STATE WAS THE FRONT LINE. Money spent on "patrolling" the border, etc., should be spent on free naturalization courses provided in this area - before there's a problem. I don't know how it is in the rest of the country, but... it's very hilarious that we have something called an "Immigration Service", "Green Cards", etc... In this area, you can see illegals working out in the open everywhere - everywhere - and there's now certain places in town where english is the second language. It's a farce, an unfair to those who try to come into the country legally. We're about to have a big social problem because of it. The problem being rascism. I'm here to say that it's probably going to be *impossible* for us *not* to have a problem if things continue the way they're going now. There will *have* to be a way to smooth things out. That will have to be done through social engineering - somehow. Because what's going to happen is that a saturation point will be crossed in an area that has a certain terminal population density, and built up resentment *will* explode in some manner. This resentment will occur through jobs disappearing, and the realization of the non-taxed being able to get certain benefits (emergency medical care for instance) their taxes pay for. That will have to be addressed somehow - and there's no way of doing it without spending money on a liberal social program. It WILL NOT happen any other way. It's getting pretty sketchy here in Augusta (big surprise?)... Most construction sites "augment" their crews with "immigrants"... one cable company in particular, at one point, seemed to be a Mexican operation entirely, people made jokes about it... You probably couldn't find a kitchen in an Augusta restaurant that doesn't have an immigrant".. I was in a Kroger a few weeks ago at 3 am, and between the stocking crew and the people getting their groceries I was the only english speaking person in the store, save the clerk. The point to all of that is that unfortunately I'm quite sure there will come a day when an "incident" happens, and it will be in the news and suddenly bring the issue to the fore. Which brings in the NWO...... You've got to "manage" your democracy, so I predict many new low-skilled manufacturing jobs for American citizens; if this is missed, there's going to be problems from disgruntled people. SO, the U.S. needs to abandon it's pretense of trying to stop illegal immigration from Mexico, it's obviously not working. Spend the money on free english classes, citizen work retraining/social programs. The money will *have* to be spent, otherwise there will be a problem like there is in various places in Europe, and anywhere you look where you have large amounts of expatriated people moving into an area. It's a social innevitability. Undoubtably one King George will defer to the next president if he can - it's going to be expensive, and ironically so when it turns out to be a failure of his own state's sorry implementation of tax money. HOW THIS RELATES TO THE TOPIC? The neo-Nazis here are not smart, but well read. They're going to use things picked up from studying the brown shirt movement. It's to their advantage to lay low and out of sight, to be clandestine. I believe in social interaction following the rules of chaos theory: a chaotic system is influenced greatly by small initial conditions, and a little bit of a perturbation at the right time can create enormous results. These bozos are waiting and are going to be there when "something" happens, and unfortunately it's not going to be obvious what they do. We've taken enormous strides in integrating African American history into the public education system; what should be done soon is perhaps a mandatory class on not race relations, but the social dynamics that went on in Germany circa 1936-40. Make people aware of how this group of people may try to manipulate a situation for their purposes. Because this kind of thing can happen very quick. For instance - does everyone remember the tension when the Rodney King verdict came out? Does anyone remember how *quick* it seemed "things have changed* - over the period of just one day? This may not have been as..... visceral out west as it was here, but let me tell you - it was a strange thing for a day or two here. A palpable thing; people not wanting to look at other people, maybe a frown exchanged where previously there was a smile. ASIDE There was nearly a race riot in Augusta back in 1970. James Brown literally stopped it, believe it or not... What color decided to riot, or "rise up" doesn't matter for this point of view: it's that it only takes one trigger incident to create the potential. Maybe a white guy gets beat up while some illegals rob a store, or maybe one gets killed on the job under "suspicious circumstances" by an illegal. These guys in Bremmen come in and surreptitiously nudge things a bit; what was a tense situation turns into a social engineering event. Built up resentment boils over, and is focused into racist hate. From the outside looking in that may seem like a cheesy cliche; but I'm telling you, as a person currently living in the deep south - it's not. ------------------ [b]New and Improved Music Soon:[/b] http://www.mp3.com/chipmcdonald

[rumpelstiltskin.]

i still don't understand how the "evil" of hip-hop has anything to do with any of this...

[strat0124]

The Black Community will probably abandon Hip Hop once the white community takes it totally on.......remember rock n roll? No wait.....Country RAP.......twangin rap...... EVIL.....TOTALLY EVIL

[alphajerk]

actually there is this redneck from georgia who is being producled by timbaland now. i cant remember his name but he was on mtv the other day. video was of him hog wrestling or something. this article doesnt have a damn thing to do with hip hop... or anything really except maybe ignorance.

[Trash Monkey]

Hey Guys, Please don't judge everyone in Ga by this crap. MOST of the state has finally made it firmly into ther 20th century. Really... I live in Macon, run a studio 1 block from the famous Capricorn Studios of the 70's and 80's-still open-and 2 blocks from the GA MUSIC HALL OF FAME. For instance Sept 14th the B52's will be playing in the music park in front of the hall, also one of my primary interests in artist development is hip hop. Nazi skinhead racism is something the entire WORLD could do without. BTW what did the article have to do with hip hop?

[Anderton]

I think the reference to hip-hop was that that a lot of people think that hip-hop is a bad influence, but here's something that makes gangsta rap lyrics look almost benign by comparison -- they just want to off a girlfriend or a cop, not an entire race. The racist music thing has been around for a while. I remember the whole skinhead thing in England back in the late 60s (in fact, I remember being chased by one until I made it to the "tube"...). It had just enough influence to inspire things like Rock Against Racism. I wouldn't get too alarmed, at present this is a distinct minority of people. Most people would rather have a hassle-free life than have to go around hating all the time. Color me overly-optimistic, but I've seen a decrease in racist thinking in the US during my lifetime. It's a small change over quite a few years, and it's not gone yet - but despite our natural human tendency to screw things up royally, overall we're going in a vaguely positive direction when it comes to racism.

[Chip McDonald]

[quote]Originally posted by Trash Monkey: [b]Please don't judge everyone in Ga by this crap. MOST of the state has finally made it firmly into ther 20th century. Really... I live in Macon, run a studio 1 block from the famous Capricorn Studios of the 70's [/b][/quote] Crap? If you work where I think you work you probably know a guy by the name of Steffans who can probably vouch for *this* part (Augusta) of Georgia being a racial backwater.... ------------------ [b]New and Improved Music Soon:[/b] http://www.mp3.com/chipmcdonald

[Trash Monkey]

Yeah Chip, Very familiar with Augusta. Used to have to go there for work alot. Company had branch on Gordon Highway. Thats kinda the armpit of the town as well, some of my co-workers typified the racist stereotype. Sickening....you know I was reading another post about you're trouble in the emergency room with your mother and thought, shit Augusta is the big medical school in Ga and THAT kinda treatment. Makes you wonder what kind of money grubbing doctors are coming outta there? If you ever get down this way look me up-user name=studio name, I'm in the yellow pages. In fact think about a trip in September as the Music Hall of Fame is having a month long shindig. How'sthe sleep mode going? Russ

[Lee Flier]

I agree Trash Monkey, I live in Atlanta and have not seen much racism at all here - in fact I saw lots more of it when I lived in supposedly liberal Los Angeles. Everybody out there thought I was nuts to be moving to the "backward, racist" South but ya know, there are redneck idiots everywhere and I haven't seen any more of them here than anywhere else. I lived in Massachusetts when I was a kid and the racism in Boston was appalling. In L.A. I saw the equivalent of the Rodney King videotape in my own neighborhood on a regular basis - black folks getting mauled by police dogs for doing nothing whatsoever but standing in their back yards, for example. One county south of L.A., Orange County, had skinhead riots nearly every weekend. In the upper Midwest (Minnesota, Wisconsin, the Dakotas) I've witnessed racial violence against Native Americans firsthand - and that's just the times I was there. This doesn't mean that I characterize all of the people in these places as racist. In each place I've mentioned (including here in the South) I've also met some of the most enlightened and progressive people. It just means there are good people everywhere and there are idiots everywhere. Overall, like Craig says there IS a lot less racism than there was say 50 years ago. But it's been a slow, painful evolution fraught with the occasional backward steps for every forward step. --Lee

[rold]

[quote]Originally posted by Lee Flier: [b]It just means there are good people everywhere and there are idiots everywhere. --Lee[/b][/quote] Ain't that the truth! In Halifax, Nova Scotia, the town is segregated. All the black people are "encouraged" to stay in a part of town called the hood. I have natural dreads, and when I went to visit a friend there, I was told I was in the wrong part of town, I was told to sit at the back of the bus on one occasion, and I was referred to by words I wouldn't want to say here. And this in Canada! Doesn't apply to the south exclusively, that's for sure. I hear ya on the native abuse thing too - in Winnipeg, Saskatchewan, cops are known to pick up drunk native people at random and drive them out into the country, miles from anything, and force them out of the car in 40-below weather. So far three native men have frozen to death, and charges against the police are being waived, while lawsuits from the native community are being ignored and lost in the paperwork. I simply don't understand this stuff. Why do people target others with different skin colour(which represents a 0.012% genetic difference) or ethnicity? It makes no sense.

[dansouth]

Hmm. I'm a little confused. Racist propaganda is unfortunate, but it's not married to any particular form of music. In the 30's, the Nazi's changed the words to German folk songs to create new Nazi anthems. As a result, the original songs have been all but lost. No one sings them anymore. Wasn't there a movement of racism and nihilism in European rock ten or fifteen years ago? I don't see a clear association with hip hop. I do sometimes wonder whether hip hop has a connection to societal ills. Did the music grow out of the frustration of the urban underclasses? Or does it promote ghetto life, style, and language as cool? I've lost sight of the cause and effect here. Hip hop seems to be big in Paris. Lots of young dudes hang out with oversized pants and pendants, talking trash, acting tough. Graffiti is a rampant problem in Paris, and hip hop seems to be the music of choice for the taggers. Hop over to London (no pun intended), and you see none of this. London is one of the most cosmopolitain cities in the world. People of all races and nationalities interact respectively. Graffiti is minimal, as are hip hop fashions. So, does hip hop thrive on Paris' problems, or does it incite graffiti tagging and obnixious behavior? Maybe a little of both, I'd guess. When antisocial behavior becomes stylish, society pays the price.

[EarlBob Okum]

Hay ah resimble that remark about racist bein dumb. Ah ain't not dumb ah got a thurd grade idjacayshun. An ahm a 50 yeer old racist. yall shut up now ahm watchin Barny an drikin beer

[Trash Monkey]

I don't know about the social ills and hip hop thing anymore than Judas Priest songs causing teenage suicide, everyone remember that one? Racism is racism and all we can do is strive to end it. It isn't exclusive to any geographical area.

[mr. rob]

Its sad when theres a wall that exists where a person may want to approach somebody from another "race" just being friendly or neighbourly but theyre afraid that person would give them some nasty attitude. That wall is fucking bullshit and it pisses me off, and people of all colors contribute to it, it needs to be torn down. There's a lot of "revisionist" ideals on any side of what defines racism, but man Ive heard racism from every side. I know blacks that dont like whites and whites that dont like blacks, mostly due to the cultural difference's that have come from segregation. But, I think the big thing is when somebody is in a position of power and does some bad racist thing, thats the worst. And if you look at the richest most powerful americans you know who has the power. But on a personal level I just try to find the good in people. Sometimes people will just look for the bad. Like, Dont lump me in with the cop that beat you, or the asshole cashier at the department store and I wont lump you in with the guys that stand on my corner selling crack, rove in gangs jacking people, and most have families somewhere elsewhere from where theyre at.

[dansouth]

[quote]Originally posted by rold: [b] I simply don't understand this stuff. Why do people target others with different skin colour(which represents a 0.012% genetic difference) or ethnicity? It makes no sense.[/b][/quote] It's not just skin color. Look at the tribal violence in Rwanda and other African nations. Look at the politically based purges in Russia and Cambodia. Shiite and Hitite clashes in the Middle East. Gangs killing kids with the wrong sneakers. Civil wars and revolutions around the world. Race isn't a factor in any of these instances. Human nature is devisive and discriminating by default. Race, like religion, nationality, tribe, politics, class, language, and socioeconomic status is just another excuse to hate thy neighbor. Tolernance requires maturity, empathy, and self-control, qualities that human beings have to work hard to develop adn maintain.

[Curve Dominant]

YO, That post was not meant to single out GA. We have a strong Klan and white supremacy presence here in Pennsylvania as well. The reference to hip hop in the title was in regard to the hip hop bashing I often see on these threads. The violence in hip hop lyrics is mostly social commentary. What was described in that article is completely different: utilizing music as a tool specifically to incite hatred and racial violence. Anyone who loves music should be appalled by this, and speak out against it at any opportunity. SILENCE = DEATH E [img]http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img]

[dansouth]

[quote]Originally posted by Curve Dominant: [b] What was described in that article is completely different: utilizing music as a tool specifically to incite hatred and racial violence. Anyone who loves music should be appalled by this, and speak out against it at any opportunity. [/b][/quote] I agree. See my post about German folks songs above. Agree that PA has a BIG racism problem. Racism and the industrial revolution seem to have gone hand in hand, and the decendants of those assembly line/coal mine/steel mill racists are still carrying on the tradition. I'm hoping that it's better today than it was when I grew up in a Western Pennsylvania steel town. It was totally out of control back then. This message has been edited by dansouth@yahoo.com on 08-23-2001 at 03:48 PM

[sign]

There has been quite some scientific research and it turned out there are many humans with a defect in the brain.

[mr. rob]

Theres supposed to be a clan rally here in the twin cities on saturday. Of course there's also going to be quite a counter rally by anti racist groups. These guys are fucking vile. id love to have a flame thrower and just torch those hooded cowards. Actually Im really a non violent person, I find hurling pies and tomatoes much more effective; thats not vioent is it;-) ?.

[dansouth]

Well, if you come to New York you can enjoy the feeble-minded rantings of a Black Klan. They stand on street corners and shouting biblical excerpts that they say predicts that America and the White Devils will one day be laid to struck down by God. - Substituting America for Rome or Babylon is by far their most clever interpretation. Most of their logic is so irrational it's pathetic. I will say this: these guys illustrate an interesting social phenomenon. If the KKK stood on a Manhattan street corner professing the evils of Jews, Catholics, and "colored" people, there would be a tremendous media backlash. The Klan would be beaten silly without police protection. Yet, a no less vehemently racist organization can talk about the evils of caucasions, and the general public walks past without a word of protest. So much for all intolerance being unacceptable.

[mr. rob]

I dont like that stuff either. However much of that philosophy makes it into the mainstream of pop culture via hophop. And its funny the white kids who buy the albums dont think its talking about them. Like if I pay $15 then Im excluded. I like hiphop as much as the next guy, but c'mon I can pick up on that stuff pretty quickly, and I think diving into such flawed ideas as are presented in most bibles, then twisting them for racist means is quite small. or is that desperate? Though try criticising this stuff publicly even in an reasonable way and you will get branded a scarlet R by some mindless drone who has their little "how to be a facist" textbook in their back pocket and use whatever they can to serve their agenda. Bottom line, I dont want nothin' to do with it, either way. Im not even into chasing around clansmen, though I have friends who are.

[dansouth]

If you reworded some of Tupac songs to talk about shooting Black cops (or Hispanic, Asian, or any other group) and hired a white dude to rap it, he'd be branded as a white supremacist. So why is it cool to rap about shooting at Caucasian police officers? In 'Fight The Power', they talk about Elvis being a racist, even though Elvis was probably one of the "blackest" white men ever, at least in musical terms. If I rapped a song about Nat King Cole being a racist, I don't think it would be widely appreciated. Because, of course, it would be stupid, just like 'Fight The Power' is stupid for slamming a dead white guy. Damn, I hate reverse descrimination almost as much as I hate racism in the first place!