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Thoughts on Nawledge's question re:hip hop


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200 posts later, it seems that the core issues are being drowned out in a whole lot of noise. Questions: 1. Do hip-hop/Rap songs have a higher profanity content that most or all other genres? 2. Who is this music marketed to (age, race, income etc)? 3. Who controls the bulk of the recording/distribution/sales for hip-hop/Rap? 4. For the 1st 8 weeks of 2002, what percentage of the Billboard 100 were hip hop / rap tunes? 5. For those hiphop/rap tunes that made it to the "Billy100", what percent constitute tunes with bleeped out profanity, demeaning or derogatory lyrics, or songs that had a "cleaned up" version for radio? 6. What are the statistics for 2001? (using same metrics). 7. How many of the participants in the previos 200+ pages have kids? 8. How many are over 25? (an arbritrary number). How many have post secondary education? 9. My opinion & position aside, how many of us think that there is a co-relation between the content of the lyrics that we hear in songs and how our attitudes are shaped? 10. A repeat / rephrase of questions 4-6. Of all the hiphop/rap tunes in the public domain (available commercially, airplay, mtv etc) what percentage could a parent play to her 9-13 yr old that likes the music? Is music more than entertainment? Is "entertainment" more than entertainment? What role does music have in the progress of a society? Little, none? A lot? NYC Drew
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Drew, Can I hit this one over all of those postulations? The singer, Oshia, who'm I'm currently collaborating with, just left here with a tape of a soundtrack to a future song we are writing and producing together. The basis of this track was a beat that she recorded on a cheap cassette machine, on which she did her human-beatbox thing. We transposed her beatboxing groove onto my sequencer, added a bassline, some soundz and whatnot, and created an arrangement out of it. She has no musical education whatsoever, she cannot play an instrument, yet she can compose beats and grooves, and guide me through the process of arranging those grooves into a musical ensemble. To me, that is the essense of hiphop: the basic human initiative of creativity in music on a rhythmic level. This is what I love about hiphop - it breaks music down to the most primal and spritual level. To answer your questions... [b]1. Do hip-hop/Rap songs have a higher profanity content that most or all other genres?[/b] This tune will have no profanity, as far as I know. [b]2. Who is this music marketed to (age, race, income etc)?[/b] We have no idea who this track will be marketed to. [b]3. Who controls the bulk of the recording/distribution/sales for hip-hop/Rap?[/b] I'm assuming the Big Five major distributors. [b]4. For the 1st 8 weeks of 2002, what percentage of the Billboard 100 were hip hop / rap tunes?[/b] 50%? Just a guess. [b]5. For those hiphop/rap tunes that made it to the "Billy100", what percent constitute tunes with bleeped out profanity, demeaning or derogatory lyrics, or songs that had a "cleaned up" version for radio?[/b] Most, I would assume. [b]6. What are the statistics for 2001? (using same metrics).[/b] I dunno. [b]7. How many of the participants in the previos 200+ pages have kids?[/b] Oshia and I are both child-free. [b]8. How many are over 25? (an arbritrary number). How many have post secondary education?[/b] Oshia and I both lack secondary education. [b]9. My opinion & position aside, how many of us think that there is a co-relation between the content of the lyrics that we hear in songs and how our attitudes are shaped?[/b] We hope your attitudes will be shaped by our music, which is positive and pro-active. [b]10. A repeat / rephrase of questions 4-6. Of all the hiphop/rap tunes in the public domain (available commercially, airplay, mtv etc) what percentage could a parent play to her 9-13 yr old that likes the music?[/b] You would want to play our "version" of hiphop for your 9-13 yr olds. [b]Is music more than entertainment? Is "entertainment" more than entertainment? What role does music have in the progress of a society? Little, none? A lot?[/b] Yes; yes; insofar as it can have an influence on its merits, as much or as little or none, depending on the relativity of the artistic statement to its context with the times and the circumstances. E

Eric Vincent (ASCAP)

www.curvedominant.com

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Drew, While I can't begin to offer replies to all your questions,I would like to take a swing at a few of them. Before I do,I'd like to make one observation. From a historical perspective it seems inevitable that rap or something like it would eventually gain prominence. At the beginning of the last century,the diatonic,melody dominated European musical tradition was in full glory. But it wasn't long before the cracks began to show. Stravinsky's "Rite of Spring" with it's use of complex rhythm and the accompanying controversy it spawned were a harbinger of things to come. With the advent of the 12-tone school of music there was an abrupt and unprecedented,complete break with a centuries-old musical framework,and by mid-century that break would manifest itself in jazz as well. The new tonality didn't bring along much of an audience however and left the door wide open to the more rhythmically complex African musical tradition which has been gaining ground ever since. [b]Is rap more profane than other music?[/b] In some cases, yes. Given the black experience in this country,it's probably also inevitable that there is a certain amount of rage and contempt in this artform. But I think that there is also a whole set of unfamiliar cultural markers that is just as troubling to European(white)Americans that accounts for a lot of the knee-jerk reactions against the genre. We love change when we are the ones instituting it but not when we're the targets of it. All I can say to this is [i]get over it[/i]! Change is the only constant in the universe. On the other hand,for those of you who are riding the crest of change,I will offer up this observation. Just because things are going your way right now doesn't mean that you aren't full of shit. It will become more apparent to you(as it has for the rock generation)when the wave of change you're riding on now has broken and the next one is bearing down on you. [b]Who's a parent?[/b] Me. I have a 9yr. old daughter. After she came along,I was amazed and somewhat appalled to discover that Tipper Gore was beginning to make a lot of sense to me. :D [b]Would I play most rap for my child?[/b] What? Are you crazy? [b]No![/b] I won't play most of the music [i]of any genre[/i] that the music industry has targeted her for. [b]Does entertainment influence people?[/b] Billions of advertising dollars can't be wrong. [i]Especially[/i] when it comes to children. This world is full of corporate conglomerates that are using your kids to pick your pocket. The problem is that a lot of these people have the same tender regard for your children that the neighborhood pedophile does. They sleep better too,knowing they'll never go to jail for what they do. As a parent you have to be aware that if you don't influence your children somebody else will. In the case of the entertainment media,they're on the job 24-7. So what does this have to do with rap? If your music is good and your message is righteous.......not a thing. :cool: later, Mike
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I tried to follow the "innate hatred of hip-ho- thread (I even posted in it once or twice,) but it's gotten ridiculous. These questions are intriguing, though. [b]1. Do hip-hop/Rap songs have a higher profanity content that most or all other genres?[/b] Not at all. It'd be accurate to say that hip-hop is more POPULAR and widely known than the other genres with high amounts of profanity. Some death metal lyrics, for example, are far more profane (and disturbing) than anything in hip-hop. [b]2. Who is this music marketed to (age, race, income etc)?[/b] Interesting question. Hip-hop (and any music marketed by major labels) is marketed to the people who either: 1.) Have money and the desire to be up on new music Or 2.) Have the desire to be up on new music and have access to others from whom they can get money. Draw conclusions from there. It's all about the Benjamins. [b]3. Who controls the bulk of the recording/distribution/sales for hip-hop/Rap?[/b] I'm guessing this would be the five big boys -- the same folks who have control over the other huge music genres today. [b]4. For the 1st 8 weeks of 2002, what percentage of the Billboard 100 were hip hop / rap tunes?[/b] I don't have hard numbers, but my conservative estimate would be: a lot. [b]5. For those hiphop/rap tunes that made it to the "Billy100", what percent constitute tunes with bleeped out profanity, demeaning or derogatory lyrics, or songs that had a "cleaned up" version for radio?[/b] Again, no hard numbers, but my perception would be: a lot. [b]6. What are the statistics for 2001? (using same metrics).[/b] See last answer. [b]7. How many of the participants in the previous 200+ pages have kids?[/b] Some? I have no kids, but I am a godfather and an uncle. [b]8. How many are over 25? (an arbritrary number). How many have post secondary education?[/b] I am/do. [b]9. My opinion & position aside, how many of us think that there is a co-relation between the content of the lyrics that we hear in songs and how our attitudes are shaped?[/b] I don't. I would imagine some people agree and some disagree. [b]10. What percentage could a parent play to her 9-13 yr old that likes the music? [/b] I think it depends on the parent and the child -- their morals, etc. Some would say 100%, some would say 0%, others a different number. That's the intrinsic problem with a question/topic like this -- it's all subjective. ------------------------------------------------------ en·ter·tain·ment (ntr-tnmnt) n. The act of entertaining. The art or field of entertaining. Something that amuses, pleases, or diverts, especially a performance or show. The pleasure afforded by being entertained; amusement: The comedian performed for our entertainment. This is Webster's definition of entertainment. Based on this definition, part of music is entertainment (Something that amuses, pleases, or diverts). [b]Is "entertainment" MORE than entertainment?[/b] I don't even understand the question. [b]Is music more than entertainment?[/b] Again, this is a subjective thing. For some, music is merely entertainment: they could listen to music, watch a movie, play a videogame, etc. It all holds the same value. For others, music is a transcendental thing. It depends on the individual. I'll keep making it for anyone who wants it. [b]What role does music have in the progress of a society? Little, none? A lot?[/b] Art used to be reserved for those who could afford to appreciate it, because the other members of society were constantly working for their own survival. They didn't have time for the creation or appreciation of art of any type. When art can be created and appreciated by the general population, it shows many people have available time to think about something other than basic survival. The simple fact that we can even have a discussion about something like this shows something about society. We have reached a point where we have made music into a business, which can be discussed both fiscally and philosophically. We have a lot of time on our hands. We're hardly ever focused on our survival on a daily basis. Therefore, there is a lot of music/art out there, and it's from all parts of our society. Those who really appreciate music can appreciate the essential value in any type of music (from any part of society) whether they care for the style or not. IMO, music is a byproduct of a growing society, which then fuels society through new, creative thought.

\m/

Erik

"To fight and conquer in all your battles is not supreme excellence; supreme excellence consists of breaking the enemy's resistance without fighting."

--Sun Tzu

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[quote]Originally posted by NYC Drew: [b]200 posts later, it seems that the core issues are being drowned out in a whole lot of noise. Questions: 2. Who is this music marketed to (age, race, income etc)? 7. How many of the participants in the previos 200+ pages have kids? 8. How many are over 25? (an arbritrary number). How many have post secondary education? NYC Drew[/b][/quote]There may be a 'generation gap' at work here. A major survey undertaken last year by [url=http://www.edisonresearch.com/]Edison Media Research[/url] indicated that 16-24 year olds (all races) purchased way more Hip Hop than any other music type (30%). This figure dropped dramatically to 5% for buyers 25-34 years old. I'm sure all the major players were aware of this survey and have adjusted their marketing to suit. Interestingly, one thing this survey (June 2001) predicted was that a new Michael Jackson album was very likely to be a huge flop.
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hey DREW: questions 1-6 require factual statistics for answers, and 7 & 8 are census. [b]9. My opinion & position aside, how many of us think that there is a co-relation between the content of the lyrics that we hear in songs and how our attitudes are shaped? 10. A repeat / rephrase of questions 4-6. Of all the hiphop/rap tunes in the public domain (available commercially, airplay, mtv etc) what percentage could a parent play to her 9-13 yr old that likes the music? [/b] i have read every post in NAWLEDGE's thread, and past ones here at mp as well. i think 9 & 10 are the ultimate question in the hip hop debate. (you can't debate a music style!) right. the question is [i]really[/i] 11. can a 9-13 year old kid properly understand that hip hop is art? do they know that the rapper didn't really kill his daughter's mother? do they realize that these other guys talk about hitting women, and they may or may not actually do that, but that [i]you can't do that[/i]?!? (it all boils down to parenting. you gotta talk to your kids!) okay, i don't have kids, so i can't go much further with this. i can't say that anyone should censor themselves, but should you worry about some kid somewhere that is listening to your music while his mom's at work, soaking it all in? your music is not raising this kid... ...is it?
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I thought his post was much more staight forward than all of this, even though it may not have been worded as such. I took it to mean literally "why do SOME people dislike (hate - maybe too strong, it takes a lot of energy to hate something) RAP/Hip hop music innately (Of or produced by the mind rather than learned through experience) - in other words, some people just decide they don't like it and make up a reason as to why not. Why do they do that? I think it is clear that this is true based on many of the ludicrous characterizations of Rap / Hip Hop music that could be applied actually to any many popular genres - but not in general at all. But, "who cares" - people that don't like it know it when they hear it and the problem is they think they need a reason not to like it (or someone makes them feel a need by putting them on the spot: "but, why don't ya like it?", so they make up a reason or choose a popular one (e.g., "it's all about violence"). When in fact, they not only don't like it, but as a result have not listened to it and therefore know very little about it musically or otherwise. This ain't rocket science. People tend to be that way about a lot of things: "You don't like pickles?" "Nope." "Have you tired them?" "Nope - don't want to - they look nasty." "What? How do you know if you don't try them?" "Don't need to - don't like them." "But why?" "They are green and look nasty and I don't like them, OK?" "Dumbass" "Buttmunch" "Dillhole" "Asswipe" ... ... ...

Steve Powell - Bull Moon Digital

www.bullmoondigital.com

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[url=http://www.billboard.com/billboard/yearend/2001/hot1002.jsp]Billboard\'s top "50" for 2001[/url] Could anyone more exposed than I indicate which of these qualify as hip hop / R&B? ---------------------------------------------- 1 HANGING BY A MOMENT Lifehouse DreamWorks 2 FALLIN' Alicia Keys J 3 ALL FOR YOU Janet Virgin 4 DROPS OF JUPITER (TELL ME) Train Columbia 5 I'M REAL Jennifer Lopez Featuring Ja Rule Epic 6 IF YOU'RE GONE matchbox twenty Lava/Atlantic 7 LET ME BLOW YA MIND Eve Featuring Gwen Stefani Ruff Ryders/Interscope 8 THANK YOU Dido Arista 9 AGAIN Lenny Kravitz Virgin 10 INDEPENDENT WOMEN PART I Destiny's Child Columbia 11 HIT 'EM UP STYLE (OOPS!) Blu Cantrell RedZone/Arista 12 IT WASN'T ME Shaggy Featuring Ricardo "RikRok" Ducent MCA 13 STUTTER Joe Featuring Mystikal Jive 14 IT'S BEEN AWHILE Staind Flip/Elektra/EEG 15 U REMIND ME Usher Arista 16 WHERE THE PARTY AT Jagged Edge With Nelly So So Def/Columbia 17 ANGEL Shaggy Featuring Rayvon MCA 18 RIDE WIT ME Nelly Featuring City Spud Fo' Reel/Universal 19 FOLLOW ME Uncle Kracker Top Dog/Lava/Atlantic 20 PEACHES & CREAM 112 Bad Boy/Arista 21 DRIVE Incubus Immortal/Epic 22 WHAT WOULD YOU DO? City High Booga Basement/Interscope 23 SURVIVOR Destiny's Child Columbia 24 LADY MARMALADE Christina Aguilera, Lil' Kim, Mya & Pink Interscope 25 MS. JACKSON OutKast LaFace/Arista 26 LOVE DON'T COST A THING Jennifer Lopez Epic 27 THE WAY YOU LOVE ME Faith Hill Warner Bros. 28 HE LOVES U NOT Dream Bad Boy/Arista 29 BUTTERFLY Crazy Town Columbia 30 PUT IT ON ME Ja Rule Featuring Lil' Mo & Vita Murder Inc./Def Jam/IDJMG 31 FAMILY AFFAIR Mary J. Blige MCA 32 I HOPE YOU DANCE Lee Ann Womack MCA Nashville/Universal 33 SOUTH SIDE Moby Featuring Gwen Stefani V2 34 DON'T TELL ME Madonna Maverick/Warner Bros. 35 GET UR FREAK ON Missy "Misdemeanor" Elliott The Gold Mind/Elektra/EEG 36 CRAZY K-Ci & JoJo MCA 37 FILL ME IN Craig David Wildstar/Atlantic 38 SOMEONE TO CALL MY LOVER Janet Virgin 39 WITH ARMS WIDE OPEN Creed Wind-up 40 CASE OF THE EX (WHATCHA GONNA DO) Mya University/Interscope 41 ALL OR NOTHING O-Town J 42 BOOTYLICIOUS Destiny's Child Columbia 43 I'M LIKE A BIRD Nelly Furtado DreamWorks 44 KRYPTONITE 3 Doors Down Republic/Universal 45 FIESTA R. Kelly Featuring Jay-Z Jive 46 WHEN IT'S OVER Sugar Ray Lava/Atlantic 47 JADED Aerosmith Columbia 48 PROMISE Jagged Edge So So Def/Columbia 49 MISSING YOU Case Def Soul/IDJMG 50 DIFFERENCES Ginuwine Epic
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10-15 years ago, when I still did not have a career in the music business, I'd be able to hum or sing every single song on a billboard top 50 list. Today, looking at this chart of top 2001 selling songs, the only one instantly familiar is Lady Marmalade - a song from the 70's! Hip hop indeed has a lot of energy in the rhythm department, but whatever happened to melody?? Who will be singing "Get Ur Freak On" in the shower 10 years from now? Sure, I recognize a lot of the artist names, and have probably heard a handful of these tunes over the past year without knowing the titles, but obviously I'm not one of those 5% in my demographic who purchased hip hop records. Then again, I listen to a lost LESS radio today than I did in my 20's. I'm no exception to the rule - I'm getting old... Personally, I need to connect to music, whatever genre, on a melodic level. Who today are some hip hop artists that truly have a talent in that direction?
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[quote]Originally posted by NYC Drew: [b]40 CASE OF THE EX (WHATCHA GONNA DO) Mya University/Interscope [/b][/quote]hey, i have a cousin who went to Mya University. i sense danger... someone is going to categorize that list, and someone else is going to disagree with them... i went down the list, and i can sing (or rap ;) ) the hook to 26 of the 50 songs. i only own one of the songs' albums (stankonia). if it helps your research, i'm a straight swm, 32.
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I have never considered Hip Hip/Rap to be a form of music in the traditional sense. I looke at it almost like a form of modern day Spoken word..Yes there is some music behind it but for the most part they are loops and samples and most of the music seens to be sampled, manipulated music written by someone else..It lacks stong melodic, and harmonic statements. The Groove is there though. I consider it a form of artistic expression but not "Music" to my definitions. I feel there are many talented Poets in Rap with a legitimate message but there is an overwhelming majority of ignorant street punks who get a hold of a sampler and turntable and start rapping over it with no substance whatsoever. :)

Sean Michael Mormelo

www.seanmmormelo.com

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Curve... Yeah. My name's Erik, too. Small world, huh? haha. Back to the topic at hand. [quote] This ain't rocket science. People tend to be that way about a lot of things: "You don't like pickles?" "Nope." "Have you tired them?" "Nope - don't want to - they look nasty." "What? How do you know if you don't try them?" "Don't need to - don't like them." "But why?" "They are green and look nasty and I don't like them, OK?" "Dumbass" "Buttmunch" "Dillhole" "Asswipe" [/quote]Steve, you are SO right. Great analogy. BTW, I LOVE pickles. Always have. I'm not nuts about beets, but I wouldn't say they're not a food or that the people who like them are stupid. Making beets takes a certian skill in which I have no interest. I just don't like the way they taste. You like 'em? You eat 'em. Gimme a pickle, and we can sit down and eat together. Some music just doesn't appeal to some people. That's life. In an ideal world, everyone would always agree and progress would come through some kind of divine intervention. We'd all be happy all the time, and dogshit would smell like Chanel #5. Nobody would be homeless, hungry or discriminated. Guess what? Life ain't like that. People have opinions. All of them are equally valid or invalid, depending on your point of view.

\m/

Erik

"To fight and conquer in all your battles is not supreme excellence; supreme excellence consists of breaking the enemy's resistance without fighting."

--Sun Tzu

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[quote]Have you found that your opinion about really raunchy/violent lyrics has changed since having a child? [/quote]As a father of 2 young boys (5 and almost 2 years old) - I would say YES, YES, YES! I even cringe at the usage of "bitch" and "ass" on tv and radio. My kids still think that "butt" and "stupid" are bad words. The longer I can keep it that way, the happier I'll be. I will not play any of my "parental advisory" cd's in their presence. You'd also be surprised at how quickly my 5 year old can recite lyrics to just about any song he's heard a few times. Kids are truly sponges.
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[b] 1. Do hip-hop/Rap songs have a higher profanity content that most or all other genres? [/b] A lot of it does. Sometimes it is done in artistic context. Sometimes its is done as a blantant attempt to shock. I think there are ways to get the idea/message across without resorting to profanity. Other times it may be the best way get an idea/message/image across. Most folks are more visually oriented than dialog oriented. [b] 2. Who is this music marketed to (age, race, income etc)? [/b] It seems like the demographic is 12 - 21 year olds. The folks with mommy and daddy's disposable income in their pockets. [b] 3. Who controls the bulk of the recording/distribution/sales for hip-hop/Rap? [/b] It AIN'T a lot of the labels. It seems as though some type of distribution deal is always the way to get your stuff out to the public. [b] 4. For the 1st 8 weeks of 2002, what percentage of the Billboard 100 were hip hop / rap tunes? [/b] Have no idea. [b] 5. For those hiphop/rap tunes that made it to the "Billy100", what percent constitute tunes with bleeped out profanity, demeaning or derogatory lyrics, or songs that had a "cleaned up" version for radio? [/b] Probably 50 % or more. [b] 6. What are the statistics for 2001? (using same metrics). [/b] Who knows? Should be an interesting stat comparing 1999, 2000 ,2001 and 2002. [b] 7. How many of the participants in the previos 200+ pages have kids? [/b] I have two girls 8 and 2. [b] 8. How many are over 25? (an arbritrary number). How many have post secondary education? [/b] Yes on both accounts. [b] 9. My opinion & position aside, how many of us think that there is a co-relation between the content of the lyrics that we hear in songs and how our attitudes are shaped? [/b] Interesting question. Prior to getting married and having kids I was really in favor of the artist. I thought that they should be able to communicate in any manner they deemed relevant to their artistic vision. That it was the parent's responsibility to censure what is right and what is not right for their children. Having kids hasn't changed my position that much. I still think parents are responsible for what is right and not right for their kids. I also recognize that artists, athelets and the like have a responsibility also. They may not want to admit it or even accept it but they do. A lot of times what they do, what they say and how they act has an affect on many more folks than they realize. There is very little rap/hip-hop, pop that I allow my daughters to listen to. Some of it that is socially aware has lyrics that are questionable. Like the previous poster said. My kids still think [b] stupid [/b] [b] dummy [/b] and [b] shut up [/b] are bad words. I'd like to keep it that way for as long as I can. Innocence seems to disappear at such a young age nowadays. [b] Of all the hiphop/rap tunes in the public domain (available commercially, airplay, mtv etc) what percentage could a parent play to her 9-13 yr old that likes the music? [/b] I'd say maybe 50 % or less. [b] Is music more than entertainment? "entertainment" more than entertainment? What role does music have in the progress of a society? Little, none? A lot? [/b] Sometimes it is and sometimes it isn't. Did the movies In Cold Blood, Taxi Driver or Natural Born Killers inspire people to do some insidious things? Sometimes [b] entertainment [/b] may carry a message. It can be used like a mirror to reflect society at a given time. Other times it is like cotton candy. Sweet, airy, melts in your mouth and the taste, if any, is forgotten in about 15 minutes. my .02 cents RobT

RobT

 

Famous Musical Quotes: "I would rather play Chiquita Banana and have my swimming pool than play Bach and starve" - Xavier Cugat

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by NYC Drew: [b] [url=http://www.billboard.com/billboard/yearend/2001/hot1002.jsp]Billboard\'s top "50" for 2001[/url] Could anyone more exposed than I indicate which of these qualify as hip hop / R&B? [/b] Shit!! Am I out of touch or what? Billboard actually lumps together Hip Hop with R&B? Seems they do. I have to throw out my old R&B vinyl collection because it's now like Hip Hop :( Nurse!!
It's OK to tempt fate. Just don't drop your drawers and moon her.
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stevepow wrote: This ain't rocket science. People tend to be that way about a lot of things: "You don't like pickles?" "Nope." "Have you tired them?" "Nope - don't want to - they look nasty." "What? How do you know if you don't try them?" "Don't need to - don't like them." "But why?" "They are green and look nasty and I don't like them, OK?" "Dumbass" "Buttmunch" "Dillhole" "Asswipe" ... ... ... Damn Steve! you should write gear manuals, man that's exactly what i meant, love the way you broke it down. just switch the word pickels- to rapmusic/hiphop the word nasty- to violent, sexist, no talent, not music, not art, no melody, to easy and the word green- to black white yellow red or brown, where applicable the sad thing is that when we do that with peoples cultures, an entire form of music, or an artform contributed by a paticular segment of our society we all lose and are no better for it. this serves only the purpose of those evil doers, Bush (lol) keeps talking about. devision and conquest. I know some rock songs that sound like serial killer lullabys, and some groups that kill animals during shows, others that reinact christ crusifixtion and try to make it worse while screaming how they love it but i would never dismiss the whole Genre. here are some things you may have noticed. we equate rap/hiphop with violence, drugs, and blacks we equate rock & roll with being American, pepsi, and "f_ck yeah" here are some stupid questions: is rapmusic a bad thing? did rap music come from bad people in a bad place? is rap music only about drugs and violence? did the government really put drugs in the ghetto does the government really want to stop the flow of drugs in the ghetto now? would the govronment really like to ban hiphop? who controls the govronment, isn't it the people? did all those parents who bought their kids "new kids on the block" cds buy their kids "new edition" cds and vice versa? we should start using steve's explanation on people, i'm gonna tell'em, "you know what? you've got Pickle Syndrome. you better get that checked out.
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Great Thread NYC Drew. I'm glad you responded to some of the views that came out when Nawledge asked the forbidden question, or rather the forbidden topic-Rap Music(to be read out loud but really softly). I don't have time to repost your questions so I'll dive on in. I am a father. A young black male(26-Is that still young? I hope so) who takes being a father very seriously, and I must say that I do not support nor will I allow the images and messages of much of "Popular Rap Music" to influence my son. Why am not being politically correct and saying most of Pop music, or whatever. Put simply, I believe that rap music could be far more detrimental to my son because rappers look a lot like his Dad. The image is much more identifiable than a DeathMetal band because I don't look like those guys. (Funny thing is that I sing and play Rock) Anyway, one might wonder how I might protect my son from the bombardment of negative, life depreciating images? Answer, being a better father, spending more time with my son, listening to my son more, and most importantly allowing my son to see and feel the goodness in me by being the best example of a human being I can be. I know, Big Answer, but IMO, Parenting is a BIG Job, I would argue the biggest and most important job a person can have. I believe it is something we all could take a lot more seriously. This is my response to the whole "as a parent" questions, I'm about to make another post for the "Does art influence what you think/What does Entertainment mean" stuff. Namaste Jedi

"All conditioned things are impermanent. Work out your own salvation with diligence."

 

The Buddha's Last Words

 

R.I.P. RobT

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[quote] [b]9. My opinion & position aside, how many of us think that there is a co-relation between the content of the lyrics that we hear in songs and how our attitudes are shaped?[/b] [b]Is music more than entertainment? Is "entertainment" more than entertainment? What role does music have in the progress of a society? Little, none? A lot?[/b] [/quote]Absolutely, to question number nine. I would go so far as to say not just lyrical content but the tone of the music, the silent spirit underneath the music, and the intentions of the music have influence on people and their attitudes. Music has a spiritual aspect that I believe is undeniable. A good example of how music changes/influences moods is in Films. When the director wants his viewiers to feel a certain way or expect a certain thing, music has been used as a consistent and effective device in achieving that goal. Another example is (and I know all of us have experienced this) when music goes through one ear and out the other and this incredible experience has happened almost involuntarily. Music is powerful. And lyrics color and direct this power. Music, IMO, is the soundtrack to Life. What kind of Movie are we in? What kind of Movie are we writing and acting out? Well, if you don't watch the evening news(and I don't) and you're not being observant, just listen to the music. Our music is a direct reflection of our values, our culture, our pleasures, our lives. I did not say it is our lives( I can hear all the folks who don't relate to any popular music yelling how that's not them) but it is a reflection, and imitation. And furthermore it is an imitation that can also be used as an influencer. The whole process becomes very circular. My point is that we are accountable for the state of our lives, society, and yes, for our music. Each of us has the opportunity to contribute to the musical climate of our time. If you're saying, "Well, I didn't make this ugly, offensive music," no you didn't, but you did help create the climate for this offensive music to live and grow. Until we accept all of it, that is all of life, we can't change any of it. And when I say accept I don't mean accept as this is O.K., but accept as we are responsible. As far as music being more than entertainment? It most definitely can be. All music is not art, some is entertainment, some is art. My distinction is that entertainment is a pleasure that takes you outside yourself. It's external pleasure, and thank God for it. Now, art ,which is also pleasurable, takes you inward and beyond. Art connotes something beyond thought. This is what art invokes, the inner mystery of life that goes beyond thought and langauge. For example, Poetry uses language to take you beyond language, to a truth that cannot be spoken, but experienced and known. Therefore, for me the question is "Do we live in a society that values or is more interested in external pleasure than internal revelation? If so, why? And who is responsible/accountable for our values? Namaste Jedi

"All conditioned things are impermanent. Work out your own salvation with diligence."

 

The Buddha's Last Words

 

R.I.P. RobT

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The most recent RIAA report stated 83% of all Rap music sales were white males ages 10 to 23. Of course there is a margin of error and that also does not mean Black males dont like rap music. Just there is more dollar power in the white community of Amereica. However the Black dollar is the second most powerful dollar in America.Go figure. For some NOT all lets stop kidding ourselves we are not talking strictly rap music and Hip Hop we are talking race. For some NOT all the question is not hatred for Hip Hop or rap music it is hatred for Black America. As a Black American I can honesly say I know all White Americans do not hate me. But for those that do I can honestly say I dont give a fuck. I am used to it and over it. Please keep in mind Rap is a musical form and Hip Hop is the artistic culture it belongs to.

Cheers,

 

La Vida Musica

Copa Capri Recorders

Hollyhood Productions

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[quote]Originally posted by dblackjedi@hotmail.com: [b][QUOTE] Art connotes something beyond thought. This is what art invokes, the inner mystery of life that goes beyond thought and langauge. For example, Poetry uses language to take you beyond language, to a truth that cannot be spoken, but experienced and known. Therefore, for me the question is "Do we live in a society that values or is more interested in external pleasure than internal revelation? If so, why? And who is responsible/accountable for our values? Jedi[/b][/quote]Man, that made my day. I am glad to see some brothers aren't living just to fit a stereotype! Personally I think mainstream America puts a premium on external pleasure rather than internal revelation. Not all but a lot of folks would rather feel good rather than HAVE to think. I would like to think of myself as a thinker/philospher who has his moments when I just don't want to think. For me sometimes I just need to unlax. I think a lot of it, premium on external pleasure, may just come from everyday living sometimes. Some may come from media messages and images. Sometimes just plain laziness Different reasons for different folks. RobT

RobT

 

Famous Musical Quotes: "I would rather play Chiquita Banana and have my swimming pool than play Bach and starve" - Xavier Cugat

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The killer awoke before dawn He put his shoes on He paid a visit to his brother and then he Walked on down the hall He went to the room where his sister slept and then he walked on down the hall He went to the room where his parents slept "Father" "Yes Son" "I want to kill you" "Mother... I want to (unintelligible) yeeaahugh you." this is the end beautiful friend, the end. This is the end my only friend, the end. Sorry, Mr. Morrison, I may not have the lyrics exactly from memory. I'm still not crazy about rap, but some kinds of content have been around since the Greeks began doing theatre. Namaste Henry

He not busy being born

Is busy dyin'.

 

...Bob Dylan

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[quote]Originally posted by dblackjedi@hotmail.com: [b] I am a father. A young black male(26-Is that still young? I hope so) who takes being a father very seriously.....Parenting is a BIG Job, I would argue the biggest and most important job a person can have[/b][/quote]Yes,Jedi,26 is still young. I can remember being that young but I don't remember having your wisdom at that age. Your son is a very fortunate child. later, Mike
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[quote]Originally posted by trailermusic: [b]10-15 years ago, when I still did not have a career in the music business, I'd be able to hum or sing every single song on a billboard top 50 list. Today, looking at this chart of top 2001 selling songs, the only one instantly familiar is Lady Marmalade - a song from the 70's! Hip hop indeed has a lot of energy in the rhythm department, but whatever happened to melody?? Who will be singing "Get Ur Freak On" in the shower 10 years from now? [/b][/quote]Hmmm... I can sing (or rap)the hook from about 48 out of the 50. The only one I'm really not sure about is the Lee Ann Womack track. As a producer I make it my business to know what the competition's up to.Also, I'm pretty sure I'll be humming the sitar/tabla riff from "Get Your Freak On" ten years from now - landmark track. I'm 39, AAM, by the way... Peace Mars
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[quote]Originally posted by coolhouse: [b] Before I do,I'd like to make one observation. From a historical perspective it seems inevitable that rap or something like it would eventually gain prominence. At the beginning of the last century,the diatonic,melody dominated European musical tradition was in full glory. But it wasn't long before the cracks began to show. Stravinsky's "Rite of Spring" with it's use of complex rhythm and the accompanying controversy it spawned were a harbinger of things to come. With the advent of the 12-tone school of music there was an abrupt and unprecedented,complete break with a centuries-old musical framework,and by mid-century that break would manifest itself in jazz as well. The new tonality didn't bring along much of an audience however and left the door wide open to the more rhythmically complex African musical tradition which has been gaining ground ever since. [/b][/quote]A well-reasoned opinion, but I don't agree, for numerous reasons - - Rhythmic music has been around for all of history. So has melodic music. Both have existed on all inhabited continents. - The revolution sparked by Stravinsky, Shoenberg, Hindemith, et al. was more focused on challenges to traditional harmonic and melodic devices than rhythmic changes. True, they used a lot of mixed meters and tempo changes, but the tones rows and harmonic devices got most of the attention in the textbooks. - If rhythmic diversity had been Stravinsky's objective, he could have injected traditional harmonic and melodic structures with mixed meters, polymeters, and abrupt tempo changes. - The most noticeable thing about 20th Century classical music is the unresolved harmonies. - 20th C. classical music was not meant to be a voice of the common man nor the street poet, but rather a highly experimental extension of classical composition that would appeal to a limited, extremely sophisticated audiences. - 20th C. choral music did not alter it's verbal content to make liberal usage of offensive language and references to violent behavior.

The Black Knight always triumphs!

 

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[quote]Originally posted by CMDN: [b]1. Do hip-hop/Rap songs have a higher profanity content that most or all other genres?[/b] Not at all.[/QB][/quote]Really? How many times have you heard the word "motherfucker" in a country song? How many times have you heard traditional R&B, funk, or blues performers sing about their intention to murder someone that they don't get along with? What percentage of rock music is openly misogynistic, referring to women as "ho's" (whores)? How many times have you heard the phrase "punk assed bitch" in a grunge or alternative rock song? How many musical genres celebrate acts of cold-blooded barbarism like a drive-by shooting? Furthermore, in all of the aforementioned genres - and others, including speed metal and thrash - how often have you heard overt racial slurs ("nigga", for example)? A couple of contributors to the earlier thread suggested that some listeners don't care for rap/hip hop due to racist motivations. From my vantage point, hip hop seems like the most overtly racist genre since the Third Reich stopped adding pro-Nazi lyrics to German folks songs. Maybe there's some truth to the racism argument, albeit from a different angle than was presented. I, for one, refuse to listen to [b]ANY[/b] song that uses the "N-word" freely. I don't care if it's sung/spoken by blacks about blacks. Many people have made extreme sacrifices in an effort to put words like that behind us. Out of respect for them, and out of common decency, I won't support anyone who uses hateful labels in an attempt to be cool. That would be like today's Germans calling each other Nazis, or like modern blacks running around calling each other "slave." I find this extremely distasteful, and I'm willing to bet that the vast majority of the African-American community does, as well, especially those who are old enough to remember when the "N-word" was something far less pleasant than a trendy nickname.

The Black Knight always triumphs!

 

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I am not a father (yet, or that I'm aware of - LOL), but I cannot stand listening to music laced with profanity. I don't know why; it just grates on my nerves. You guys know me: I'm not a prude, I'm prone to using profanity in everyday speech and on these threads. Music is not the place for it. Gil Scott Heron got some strong messages across without using profanity, as did Jim Morrison and Bob Marley. Sting wrote a song called "They Dance Alone," which was banned in Argentina for its lyrical content, which was poetically beautiful and free of profanity. I'm a WASP, and I'm currently working with a young urban black female singer (Oshia) right now. I recently went out on a limb (so I thought) and said to her, "Gangsta rap was a big step backwards for black culture," but she totally agreed, and proceeded on a long rant to that effect. I know so many blacks who absolutely hate rap music. Not necessarily hiphop, mind you, but rather the "bling-bling" mentality that seems so vain and shallow and materialistic. It reminds me of the late-80s metal bands that I always hated so much, with their wigs and expensive costumes and lame grooves, singing about how they rule the world. They're all painting houses now. Fuck 'em! (LOL!) This year's Grammy's were happily free of all of that bullshit. Oshia and I talked on the phone while we watched from our respective apartments, marvelling at India Arie's soulful performance, Outkast's funk-twinged funfest, U2's spirited righteousness...I don't think we have to worry too much. Things are coming around. The Scorpio generation had its moment of nastyness, but it seems to be waning. Good riddence. Love is coming back: it's the power of the people, and you simply can't ignore it. Mark my word. I'll bet you $100 that love is coming back. E

Eric Vincent (ASCAP)

www.curvedominant.com

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Curve dominant wrote: I'm a WASP, and I'm currently working with a young urban black female singer (Oshia) right now. I recently went out on a limb (so I thought) and said to her, "Gangsta rap was a big step backwards for black culture," curve i've been reading your post all over this board for a while now, and i've always appreciated your outlook, that's why i think my response to your statement might apply better to the way the statement sounds than to you. I don't think gangsta rap was a step back for black culture, because that would mean that the only legs black culture has to stand on belong to black gangstas, and nothing could be further from the truth. there have always been black gangsters, they like money, music makes money, some of them can rap, some of them can rap very well, and some of them can't rap at all, but would still like to make money from selling records. I don't think gangsta rap speaks any more for black culture than the "GodFather" speaks for Irish, Jewish, and Italian cultures. The world should let black culture speak for itself as a whole, and be represented that way, instead society takes the output of the worst part of black culture as defacto representation. (Why?) not only that but they want to profit from it, foster it, and perpetuate it. (sick) if i was a conspiracy theorist i'd say the industry was profiting off of di :( vision.
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