dturner Posted February 23, 2002 Share Posted February 23, 2002 Hello all, I have been thinking about the universal appeal of music... how it can reach across barriers of language, culture and age and connect the performer with the listener. What is "it"? What is the nature of that magical connection that occurs when a listener stops what they are doing because a piece of music captures their attention, causing a slow smile to spread across the face, a foot to start tapping, or an appreciative "hmmm" with a raised eyebrow? The reactions vary, but the listener knows immediately when there is a measure of personal magic -- something in the music that touches him or her in a very personal way. Of course, each listener brings their own set of ears and musical reference points. What is wonderful to some is appalling to others. My teenaged daughters dig the current rap/pop stuff, and the repetitive and overproduced nature of this music holds no magic for me. But, there is no right or wrong music -- I think any piece of music can be valid if even only one person likes it. I remember my parents finding no value in Kansas' "Dust In The Wind" and my daughters would consider it very "eighties" - their term for all things lame. Go figure. But musical tastes aside, the questions remain... what is "it"? What is it about musical notes and rhythms that can persuade, inspire and capture. Where does my own muse originate from? Why do I sometimes truly "need" to play music... as if there is something I have to get out of my system. What is the nature of the process that allows music to convey human emotion, passion, strength, and intelligence in ways words cannot? I don't know. I hope to know more. So here is my point of musical reference: I am forty five, and have played guitar [many styles] most of my life, though never professionally. I am currently learning some absolutely gorgeous arrangements by jazz guitarist Johnny Smith. Johnny played a chord-melody style with a very clever and harmonically rich musical voice. By the way, Johnny is retired and living in Colorado Springs which he considers "as far away from New York as I can get, without getting too close to LA". [I've spoken with Johnny on the phone a few times and we trade emails... is that cool or what?] Johnny's arrangements are brutally difficult to play smoothly - part of the reason I dig them so much. I do not read music, so I've been learning these tunes by listening closely and figuring out the changes, and by using chord charts I've found for a few of his arrangements. NOTE: For all you mac users out there, check out a great shareware app called The Amazing Slow Downer at Download.com which stretches the length of an AIFF audio file up to 400 percent, while maintaining the original pitch -- this is an exceptionally cool learning tool, and the ONLY way I could have figured out some of Johnny's dense chord passages. For the past week I have been decoding "Tenderly" from JS's "Moonlight In Vermont" album. This arrangement is a total BITCH to play, but oh my God is it beautiful! I would be pleased to put up a link for an mp3 of this tune if anyone is interested in hearing it. My musical tastes are wide and varied. I love music that swings [Roomful of Blues, Benny Goodman sextet] or flows [Bonnie Raitt, India Arie] or kicks [Joe Satriani, ZZ Top]. Now, there are some composers/artists who manage to infuse boatloads of magical swing, flow and kick into one piece of music - Mozart and The Beatles come to mind. What was happening in the minds of these cats when they began with a blank slate... and created something exceptionally magical? Gifted musicians and composers like these are rare I think - those master musical sorcerers for whom creating timeless music is as easy as breathing. But in the case of The Beatles, I'd suggest a significant part of the magic was due to one of my favorite human-only occurrences - synergy. Each Beatle was talented in his own right, but when they were together.... jeez. And of course, fifth Beatle George Martin, was equally important in this magical mix. Where does this musical magic originate? What is "it" that makes one melody or arrangement suck, and another fly? What is it that a talented and intuitive producer, recording engineer or mastering engineer adds that can kick the magic up a few notches? Why is it that makes some melodies, like "Danny Boy" and "Shenandoah", timeless? I suspect there are no simple and easy answers here. And I assume that the answers will be a little different for each one of us. But I still want to know what you think. I've written this post because I want to learn... I want to know what other musicians, composers, engineers, producers, etc. think and wonder about when it comes to creating "it". I would also love to hear some of the personal truths learned [aka earned] from your time in the trenches - be it performing onstage, setting up and pressing "record", sitting during a quiet moment searching for inspiration. What is the nature of that compulsion to express through music, that "need" to find the nearest instrument and just play something. What are the sources of our own personal musical muse, and how can we learn to develop and enhance this part of ourselves - this capacity for creating magic? There are no absolute truths here. But I am hoping to learn what is true for you, the musicians reading this post. And so I invite anyone reading this to do a "brain dump" as I have here and spill your guts, speak your heart, and ask or answer any question that comes to mind. Thanks for taking the time to read this. Dennis Turner Cedarville, OH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan South Posted February 23, 2002 Share Posted February 23, 2002 [quote]Originally posted by dturner: [b] But musical tastes aside, the questions remain... what is "it"? What is it about musical notes and rhythms that can persuade, inspire and capture. Where does my own muse originate from? Why do I sometimes truly "need" to play music... as if there is something I have to get out of my system. What is the nature of the process that allows music to convey human emotion, passion, strength, and intelligence in ways words cannot? I don't know. I hope to know more.[/b][/quote]I think it goes back to our development as a species. Sound is a part of nature, and we have been engineered to respond to sound - a soothing mother's voice, the threatening growl of a predator, a thunder clap, the regular pace of walking (Allegro, Allegro non troppo, Presto, etc.), and the soothing pulse of our own heartbeats. Our heartbeats sometimes speed up or slow down to follow a rhythm that we find appealing. Why are we compelled to make music? Music makes us feel good. It connects with our physiology and our minds. As a result, we feel intense feelings. Intense feelings are intoxicating, and we grow to desire them. Where does your muse come from? I don't know. Ask HER! ;) The Black Knight always triumphs! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
henryrobinett Posted February 23, 2002 Share Posted February 23, 2002 Wow. What a great question. I have my definite ideas, but it would be too long, laborious, personal and probably technical, to go into. But part of it is the obvious truth that music, in it's pure form, is wordless and thus speaks volumes when you remove the associations of word play. Plus music is one of the few art forms that deal primarily with time and sound and it communicates. It's sound layed on a canvas of time with "aesthetics" in full charge. And most music has been, generally up until the 20th century, easily assilimatible (?), meaning people can easily make a copy of it (pre digital age) in terms of singing, dancing, mimicing, playing, so in many cases it can make a direct impression regardless of one's ability to play an instrument or know anything about it. In short without trying to sound to pendantic (too late) I THINK it is the ability of a person to make an impression of his/her being with sound and time/rhythm through gradations of beauty/ugly in a way that can be understood and either accepted or rejected. And it's communicated through sound wavelengths which are more "solid" than light. And because sound, rather than words are universal, if ones ears are working, those wavelengths strike aesthetic, emotional and intellectual sympathetic chords. Off the top of my head that's my theory, in no detail. For lack of a better word it's spiritual. In my humble opinion. All the best, Henry Robinett Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fantasticsound Posted February 23, 2002 Share Posted February 23, 2002 Music conveys emotion and feeling to me. As overdone in the movie Tap, spontaneous combinations of noises in the world around us get inside our being. Some of us hear music in it, some simply feel comfortable/uncomfortable because of it, and some ignore it. I think the same is true with created music. Individuals, although indoctrinated by the society they live in, have different tastes in timbres as we do with food, interests, or whom we find attractive. We're triggered by physiological and psychological stimulus, and sound plays a huge, if rarely noticed, part in our overall personality and mood. I think the music we love triggers something the same way a beautiful woman or man can do for us sexually. It can command our emotions. Add lyrics, and you can convey specific images to drag a person's feelings around. Again, this will be different for each of us. Sometimes it can bother my wife how involved I become in the music we're listening to. She's largely unaffected by the music. The lyrics are more important to her. It's easiest to find me on Facebook. Neil Bergman Soundclick fntstcsnd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dturner Posted February 23, 2002 Author Share Posted February 23, 2002 quote from Dan South: ------------------------------------------------------------------------ I think it goes back to our development as a species. Sound is a part of nature, and we have been engineered to respond to sound - a soothing mother's voice, the threatening growl of a predator, a thunder clap, the regular pace of walking (Allegro, Allegro non troppo, Presto, etc.), and the soothing pulse of our own heartbeats. Our heartbeats sometimes speed up or slow down to follow a rhythm that we find appealing. Why are we compelled to make music? Music makes us feel good. It connects with our physiology and our minds. As a result, we feel intense feelings. Intense feelings are intoxicating, and we grow to desire them. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Hello Dan! That makes sense, that we are programmed to respond to sounds -- and rhythms are something we respond to, whether we realize it or not. Interesting thoughts. And I understand what you mean about music making us feel good, so we grow to desire these feelings. But, why do you think you are a musician, and not your neighbor? What is it about your personal spiritual/mental makeup that has caused you to invest your time and effort into being a creator instead of consumer of music? And lastly, I wonder how many different ways music connects with our physiology and minds.... yes, there are the internal sound and rhythmic reactions that come from our physical heritage, but there is also something else I think... that feeling when you grab a big chord on a new synth in a music store... and your whole being just goes...."ooooooh" ear candy... that feeling of intense pleasure in hearing a gorgeous sound that just nails you. And Dan asked: Where does your muse come from? I don't know. Ask HER! Ha... HER eh? Hmmm.... you are probably right, but I don't know why. quote from Henry Robinett: ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Wow. What a great question. I have my definite ideas, but it would be too long, laborious, personal and probably technical, to go into. But part of it is the obvious truth that music, in it's pure form, is wordless and thus speaks volumes when you remove the associations of word play. Plus music is one of the few art forms that deal primarily with time and sound and it communicates. It's sound layed on a canvas of time with "aesthetics" in full charge. And most music has been, generally up until the 20th century, easily assilimatible (?), meaning people can easily make a copy of it (pre digital age) in terms of singing, dancing, mimicing, playing, so in many cases it can make a direct impression regardless of one's ability to play an instrument or know anything about it. In short without trying to sound to pendantic (too late) I THINK it is the ability of a person to make an impression of his/her being with sound and time/rhythm through gradations of beauty/ugly in a way that can be understood and either accepted or rejected. And it's communicated through sound wavelengths which are more "solid" than light. And because sound, rather than words are universal, if ones ears are working, those wavelengths strike aesthetic, emotional and intellectual sympathetic chords. Off the top of my head that's my theory, in no detail. For lack of a better word it's spiritual. In my humble opinion. -------------------- Hello Henry, Very cool observations. Please feel free to add more detail if you like... I like where you were going. And yes... I am quite sure there is a spiritual component too. Don't ask me to prove it though. Hmmm... lots to think about here. Dennis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
henryrobinett Posted February 24, 2002 Share Posted February 24, 2002 Wavelengths. We are all various components of different wavelengths. Each emotion is another wavelength. And each sound, musical note vibrates at a different wave rate. Even thought is has a wavelength; not one but many. The voice, guitar, tenor sax, piano have timbres and pitches that vibrate at rates pleasing and concordance with a lot of people. A pitch, timbre, plus energy (vibrato, force, bends, loud/soft, etc.), vision and imagination all either strike sympathetic waves in the listener or they don't. I think memory is attached to these vibrations as well. We're harps or piano strings. The truly gifted musicians understand this intuitively and can manipulate a listeners ability to predict. And prediction is one of the great tools of music. All the best, Henry Robinett Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lrossmusic Posted February 24, 2002 Share Posted February 24, 2002 [quote] [b]What is "it"? What is the nature of that magical connection [/b] [/quote]The answer my friend is blowing in the wind.... :) I tend to feel that the magic of a many truely great songs, performances, recordings etc. is more like a blessing from God and something completely unable to be harnessed if you know what I mean. It's like that young 16 year old girl who won the ice skating gold medal the other night. She may never skate that well again no matter how hard she practices. These blessing comes through us and not from us and are among God's gifts to the world. Also it seems that often the 'channeler' may not be the most talented or experienced. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coolhouse Posted February 24, 2002 Share Posted February 24, 2002 Ayn Rand had an uncanny gift for reducing human institutions(government,money,business,etc.)to their essence and then explaining them from there. This gift also extended to the arts. But even she was stumped by music and admitted to it. She said (& I'm paraphrasing here)that music somehow short-circuits the conceptual process that dominates our thinking. In other words it goes straight from perception to emotional reaction without any need for conceptual understanding. Of course,she was speaking from an educated lay point of view. I don't know about you guys but sometimes I wish I could shut off the involuntary analysis that occurs when I'm listening. That seems to be the standard for me now. If a new piece of music can make me listen like a child then it's a winner. However,as to why one piece does that when so many others don't I couldn't say. Short answer: I got no idea. later, Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan South Posted February 24, 2002 Share Posted February 24, 2002 [b] But, why do you think you are a musician, and not your neighbor? What is it about your personal spiritual/mental makeup that has caused you to invest your time and effort into being a creator instead of consumer of music? [/b] Everyone's mind and nervous system is unique, so that things that appeal to it are unique. My neighbor might get his biggest thrills by skiing. The guy next door might fly gliders. The next person, doing wood work or raising a beautiful garden. [b] And lastly, I wonder how many different ways music connects with our physiology and minds.... yes, there are the internal sound and rhythmic reactions that come from our physical heritage, but there is also something else I think... that feeling when you grab a big chord on a new synth in a music store... and your whole being just goes...."ooooooh" ear candy... that feeling of intense pleasure in hearing a gorgeous sound that just nails you. [/b] All sensory input comes through our physical bodies. Sound waves move the ear drum. The vibrations are turned into nerve impulses. These are interpreted by the brain. If the brain finds a pattern that it recognizes, it sends signals back into the body via the nervous system. If you see a police car racing up be hind you, you have a reaction that's triggered by memories and beliefs about what that means. When you hear a sound, your brain interprets how it feels about that sound and makes you feel that way. If you hear a song that you associate with a happy or sad time, you become happy or sad all over again. Your body's response is re-interpreted by the brain, and the reaction is programmed to be even stronger the next time. This last stage is known as classical conditioning. You don't have to do anything, it happens automatically. If you like the sound of a Strat through a JC-120, you're going to like it more every time you hear it (unless you hear it too often). Maybe you always like the sound, and maybe you "grew to like it". If you grew to like it, it was through conditioning. If you always liked it from the first time you heard it, that means that it connected with something inside you, some aspect of the "engineering" of your species and you, a particular instance of that species. At least, I think so. :D The Black Knight always triumphs! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thisDude Posted February 24, 2002 Share Posted February 24, 2002 Chaos theory states that life evolved out of the infinite disorder of the universe to look at it (the universe), make sense of it, and bring some order out of the chaos. Many of the most truly evolved (smartest) individuals suffer from some form of psycosis and pshyitsophrenia (parden my spelling). One of the characteristics of these disorders is being obsessed with repetition and doing the same things over and over again. When analyzing things like art and music, there are some common traits among what the majority of people would consider "good" versus "bad." These traits include repetition, contrast, and some kind of relationship to a naturally occuring mathematical phenomenon like pi, the natural logarythym, the golden ratio, etc.... All good music has some sort of form, that when dissected, reveals some sort of logic, making order out of the chaos... Maybe that's why we like it. All other tastes are forged by cultural standards, but they have all come out of some kind of order. "trying not to be too spacy" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lrossmusic Posted February 24, 2002 Share Posted February 24, 2002 [quote] [b]When analyzing things like art and music, there are some common traits among what the majority of people would consider "good" versus "bad." These traits include repetition, contrast, and some kind of relationship to a naturally occuring mathematical phenomenon like pi, the natural logarythym, the golden ratio, etc....[/b] [/quote]Wow !!! Very interesting. Where would one find more info along these lines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thisDude Posted February 24, 2002 Share Posted February 24, 2002 There are all sorts of articles on the web written by guys way smarter than me on the subject... [url=http://www.bigblock454.mcmail.com/eff2.htm]Try here[/url] , [url=http://www.amsci.org/amsci/issues/Sciobs96/Sciobs96-03MM.html]here[/url] , [url=http://www.math.niu.edu/~rusin/uses-math/music/index.html]and here[/url] for starters. If I had more time, I'd try to find some more.. gotta sleep now...zzzzz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lrossmusic Posted February 24, 2002 Share Posted February 24, 2002 Thanks Dude. Pleasnt dreams............ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chip McDonald Posted February 25, 2002 Share Posted February 25, 2002 Music is to the human mind what atomic decay is to a digital clock signal. Guitar Lessons in Augusta Georgia: www.chipmcdonald.com Eccentric blog: https://chipmcdonaldblog.blogspot.com/ / "big ass windbag" - Bruce Swedien Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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