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So let's say Starbucks discover a coffee bean that everyone preferred over all others, negotiated an exclusive contract with the suppliers of this bean, and cornered the coffee house market world wide. The small "mom and pop" coffee houses can't get this bean because of Starbucks' exclusive contract and couldn't afford it even if it was available to them, so their business suffers...

 

Should the govt step in and distribute these wonderful new beans to all coffee houses in an effort to level the playing field?

 

Or more to the point... should Dylan be forced to sell his records in coffee houses other than Starbucks, or should he be able to sell his recoreds WHEREVER HE WANTS?

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Ok, so we've said again and again that the artist should have more control over the marketing of their music, right?

 

Isn't that what is happening here?

 

Dylan can market his music wherever and to whomever he wants. That's HIS control over the marketing of HIS product.

 

If you want it, go buy it. If you have a problem with it, then don't. If you have a problem with Starbucks (I can't afford it, myself...besides, it's just hot water filtered through ground beans, for goodness' sake!), then don't go there. If you have a problem with the saturation of Starbucks throughout the country, so be it.

 

How many albums of live music are only available to people who contribute to Public Radio? If you want it, you 'become a member', right? At Starbucks, you don't even need to buy a latte or a brownie in order to buy an album.

 

Of course, your friends and neighbors might see you skulking into the local Starbucks, with your long overcoat (collar up high), Fedora hat brim pulled down low, eyes furtively scanning side-to-side, hoping the dead of night and the raging thunderstorm might mask your entry into 'elite coffeeland' just to buy a Dylan album (I'd suggest using the fake eyeglasses with the nose, moustache and big bushy eyebrows attached).

 

My God! What would the neighbors say? How could you talk to your friends? ("Honest, I was just going in to get the new Dylan album! Really!! I don't even DRINK coffee! You can call up and ask my wife!!!)

 

Jeez, folks. Dylan can sell his disks wherever he wants. If he wants to sell 'em out of the trunk of his car, that's his right. The same as it's YOUR right to market your music however and to whomever you wish.

 

...pardon the rant - I'm a tea-drinker. Perhaps I should up the dosage.

 

peace,

Tim from Jersey :thu:

Play. Just play.
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Yeah I have to agree with what Tim said, even though I do realize that it can hurt indie record stores. Unfortunately I think the indie record store is a dying market regardless, although some of the specialty stores will survive as a niche. In fact I would go so far as to say this Starbucks deal is a reflection of that, because increasingly people are not going out of their way to go to record stores. They get their music off the Internet, or they go to some other store (like Best Buy or Wal-Mart) to buy something else and then, oh-by-the-way, pick up a CD or two. Increasingly artists are having to market their wares to audiences who are not specifically and actively looking for music. So... the harried baby boomer stopping at Starbucks to grab a latte on the way to the office sees the Dylan CD and says, "Hey, cool! I'll buy that!" whereas it wouldn't occur to them or they wouldn't have time to go to a record store.

 

The same thing is happening with live music... increasingly, attendance at specifically "music venues" is going down and bands are having to bring their music to wherever people are - their homes, shopping centers, restarants, wherever. The "religious experience" of the weekly visit to the record store or local club isn't what it used to be... there is still a niche market for a smaller crowd who still gets into that, but nobody's getting rich off that anymore.

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Originally posted by force:

So let's say Starbucks discover a coffee bean that everyone preferred over all others, negotiated an exclusive contract with the suppliers of this bean, and cornered the coffee house market world wide. The small "mom and pop" coffee houses can't get this bean because of Starbucks' exclusive contract and couldn't afford it even if it was available to them, so their business suffers...

 

Should the govt step in and distribute these wonderful new beans to all coffee houses in an effort to level the playing field?

 

Or more to the point... should Dylan be forced to sell his records in coffee houses other than Starbucks, or should he be able to sell his recoreds WHEREVER HE WANTS?

Excellent point! This is exactly the situation, as I heard it years ago, regarding McDonald's french fries. My understanding is that they found a particular variety of potatoe that yielded the best tasting (in their corporate opinion) french fries. They bought up all these potato crops and, voila. Nobody's fries are quite like McD's. (For better or worse. ;) )

 

I don't know if that crop has been able to keep up with their global demand, but McDonald's french fries, so long as they'r not botched, really do taste consistant in McD's I've eaten at all over the Eastern U.S. and several foreign countries.

 

So should the gov't be able to dictate that McD's share their crop with others?

 

I think that's the most pertinent point.

 

While I understand the desire of Hench for some built in controls to protect preference to companies that make a living in the industry, That is really a choice of the suppliers. Apple held for years that only Apple stores should sell Apple computers. Now everyone from MI retailers to some big-box computer retailers have them.

 

For years, Mesa-Boogie was exclusive to small, boutique guitar shops. As a consequence, they were an expensive, low to medium margin item that people paid high dollar for. a decade or so ago they chose to buy into the sell more philosophy and opened themselves up to the big box, MI retailers. Prices have gone down and more people own 'em.

 

Whatever the case, sometimes change sucks, but it (change) is inevitable.

 

And for the record, anyone 35 or older has to be blind if they haven't seen the long, slow decline of independent record stores. The ones that remain are, as many have noted, ones that have selected a niche, fill the need, which allows them to rise above the price wars of the big box stores and online competition.

It's easiest to find me on Facebook. Neil Bergman

 

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Originally posted by fantasticsound:

Ori

This is exactly the situation, as I heard it years ago, regarding McDonald's french fries. My understanding is that they found a particular variety of potatoe that yielded the best tasting (in their corporate opinion) french fries. They bought up all these potato crops and, voila. Nobody's fries are quite like McD's. (For better or worse. ;) )

Hahahaha. That's complete nonsense.

McDonalds fries are as much real french fries as their chicken nuggets are real chicken.

It's processed potatoe mash, with sugar pressed through molds that make them the same.

Just like the chicken nuggetys are mashed up, processed leftover chicken bits and skin.

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President George Washington: "The government of the United States is in no sense founded on the Christian Religion."

President Abraham Lincoln: "The Bible is not my book, nor Christianity my religion."

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First off, I'll say I'm a Starbucks fan. A big Starbucks fan. They didn't take my business from any local coffee shop, they took it from Maxwell House, who hasn't gone out of business. I can't stand Maxwell House now, and would much rather have a nice Gold Coast or Verona from Starbucks (or the occasional triple white mocha).

 

The folks at Starbucks know me by name, they know what I typically order, they know my wife, and they always take good care of me. The store is always nice, neat, and clean, my drink is always consistent and good. I often see people there meeting friends or business associates (and I think that's cool too).

 

I personally think that Starbucks has created most of their market. I also have seen a bunch of independent coffeehouses sprout up in the wake of Starbucks popularity that weren't there before. I don't have any hard statistics, but I bet there are more independent coffeehouses in the US today than there were 10 years ago. Maybe I'm naieve, but I don't think Starbucks opens locations to try and put anyone out of business, but rather they open locations wherever they think they can thrive and be profitable.

 

I have read some positive things about Hear Music, and I'm a bit puzzled why this would be seen as a negative venture here. If the label were not pegged with the stigma of being affiliated with a successful, growing US Corporation (and why is that a bad thing), would it still be criticized? And here I was all along thinking that some people admired what Hear Music has been doing.

 

Anyway, I'm shaking my head. I just don't see Starbucks as evil, and I don't think that Hear Music is either.

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When the urge strikes for some coffee, which is usually when I'm driving, I'll look for the nearest coffee shop. Well, since Starbucks is pretty much on ever major corner, I go there at least 80% of the time.

 

I agree with Felix, they have created most of their market. They are open EARLY, even on the weekends. They are available almost anywhere. They have friendly, and fast service (something that you don't always get at the independent coffee shops). And they have a good product.

Amateur Hack
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Originally posted by fantasticsound:

Excellent point! This is exactly the situation, as I heard it years ago, regarding McDonald's french fries. My understanding is that they found a particular variety of potatoe that yielded the best tasting (in their corporate opinion) french fries. They bought up all these potato crops and, voila. Nobody's fries are quite like McD's. (For better or worse. ;) )

 

I don't know if that crop has been able to keep up with their global demand, but McDonald's french fries, so long as they'r not botched, really do taste consistant in McD's I've eaten at all over the Eastern U.S. and several foreign countries.

McD's didn't do anything of the sort. Nestle makes those fries, and McD's and Nestle have an exclusive contract that states Nestle will only sell those fries to McD's.

I worked security for Nestle R&D for 8 1/2 years and could tell you a whole lot of shit about the food industry. I am not going to, because I signed a confidentiality agreement. I no longer work for them, but that agreement I signed is still binding. And the type of things I could tell you are not favorable to Nestle.

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Originally posted by boosh:

Way Cool,....!!! I didn't know that guy From Battlestar Galactica was into Coffehouses and such

Actually, it's Starbuck, the first mate from Moby Dick.

 

I wanted to start a coffe shop chain called "Ahab's Coffe".

 

The slogan?

"Why drink with the 2nd mate when you can drink with the Captain."

IMDB Credit list

President George Washington: "The government of the United States is in no sense founded on the Christian Religion."

President Abraham Lincoln: "The Bible is not my book, nor Christianity my religion."

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I thought I'd follow-up on our gig at Starbucks tonight, IT RAINED LIKE FREAKIN' HELL, just before I had everything wired and ready to go! 2 more cables to plug-in to the board and then a few sprinkles, so then I unplug everything from the electrical outlets, try to cover stuff-up, lightning started getting bad, wind kicks-up, then shazzam, total mayhem.

 

Everyone was really helpful getting stuff inside, the cables and mike stands got perty wet and tangled, I got my dat and board and effects in quick! Next, all the monitors, then worked on getting mikes in and then drums, I told everyone to just leave the stands and cables and come-in from the massive lightning(!) it was pouring down!

 

Thats the last damn time I trust a weather-dude! We haven't had rain in 40 days! They said we were in this weather "pattern" for at least another week! It was a record 104 deg. for today in Austin!

 

The coffee spirits weren't with us tonight! And thats the last time I wear my "lucky" bracelet, gotta get a new one now.............

WAR IS PEACE, FREEDOM IS SLAVERY, IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH
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I'm angrier with Starbucks than ever, because they've just driven the best coffee place in town out of business. Hey, I always wondered why a cup of Starbucks coffee is like pudding by the time you get to the bottom, and I've finally figured it out. I bought a cup, put some cream in, and drove the half-hour back to my office. The coffee was too hot to drink, but after a half hour it would be perfect. So I took a sip, and I felt something solid. I spit it out, looked in the cup, and saw these curds floating in the cup. Their coffee is so acid that it curdled the cream! No wonder it hurts my stomach and tastes so bitter.

Oh, and as for Bob Dylan: I saw him last year, performing all recent material (no vintage songs at all), and he was excellent. I especially applaud him for doing all new material when you know a lot of the audience was hoping he'd do a greatest hits routine.

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Originally posted by Henchman:

Originally posted by philbo_Tangent:

I must confess I don't see an issue here.

Unfortunately, that's the problem.

I'm sure most peopel can't see the problem in the short term.

 

And the funny thing is, I don't even have to rely on music as my main source of income.

Please explain to me, as well as you can, how my perception of a corporate marketing scheme is a problem, to you or anyone else. I'd like to understand this idea...

 

If this data will help you see where I'm coming from, read on:

I don't buy published music from anyone. I quit doing that in 1978 when the last interesting music was made. I don't buy anything from Starbucks. There might be one around here somewhere, but I just don't care to know.

 

I get my music only from places where self-published artists post their work for no charge. Like IUMA.COM (for example). These are the only places I can find new music worth hearing.

 

So, what Bob Dylan and Starbucks do is basically their own business. I can't bemoan the fate of dinosaur businesses (record stores and major labels) going broke any more than I bemoan the lack of blacksmiths, coopers, and wainwrights. They are all in the same boat - - obsolete, and no longer relevant or useful.

 

The only difference is that the record business is still in denial, while most of the others have moved on to do another business in the present instead of whining about a lost past that isn't going to return.

 

So, there you go...

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Originally posted by philbo_Tangent:

...I can't bemoan the fate of dinosaur businesses (record stores and major labels) going broke any more than I bemoan the lack of blacksmiths, coopers, and wainwrights. They are all in the same boat - - obsolete, and no longer relevant or useful.

 

The only difference is that the record business is still in denial, while most of the others have moved on to do another business in the present instead of whining about a lost past that isn't going to return.

 

So, there you go...

While I vehemently disagree with your contention that there hasn't been any interesting music released on record labels since 1978, the above point is extremely lucid and accurate.

 

But in their defense, I think most blacksmiths, coopers and wainwrights were in severe denial right up until they went bankrupt. Some saw the writing on the wall and moved their talents to other industries, but most probably worked right up until the last customer quit coming for service.

 

And let's not forget there were powerful forces that tried to stop the auto industry from taking over from horse and buggies. Just not powerful enough to stop progress. Ironic, as the car industry did become powerful enough to stop the Hudson from advancing technology faster than the big boys at Ford, GM and Chrysler wished.

 

But I digress...

It's easiest to find me on Facebook. Neil Bergman

 

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Originally posted by fantasticsound:

Originally posted by philbo_Tangent:

...I can't bemoan the fate of dinosaur businesses (record stores and major labels) going broke any more than I bemoan the lack of blacksmiths, coopers, and wainwrights. They are all in the same boat - - obsolete, and no longer relevant or useful.

 

The only difference is that the record business is still in denial, while most of the others have moved on to do another business in the present instead of whining about a lost past that isn't going to return.

 

So, there you go...

While I vehemently disagree with your contention that there hasn't been any interesting music released on record labels since 1978, the above point is extremely lucid and accurate.

 

Well, OK, I overstated my case a bit.. sorry for the rabid hyperbole.

 

I *do* like some stuff that's come out since then - - all of Bela Flecks stuff, Pink Floyds 'Division Bell', Claptons 'From the Cradle', Joe Bonamassa, and a number of other assorted gems. Every so often, I do find a diamond in the dumpster.

 

But I surely no longer expect decent music to show up, like I once did. And I no longer seek out decent major label music on airwaves or anywhere else; I tend to let it find me by word of mouth.

 

My active search activities for music now involves only the web.

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Originally posted by dementia13:

Their coffee is so acid that it curdled the cream!

Dude - I doubt it. Most likely is that the cream was already bad when you poured it in. They leave it out in those thermal pitchers, but it could certainly turn if left out long enough (or it was old enough to begin with).

 

Believe me, I've made coffee for years that would take the paint off your car, and not once did it ever curdle the cream.

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I still can't understand all the hopla over Starbucks coffee. I consider myself something of a coffee addict. I get fresh roasted whole beans from Bucks County Coffee, grind them fresh every morning, and make it in a French Press. Blue Mountain Blend is my favorite; smooth. Better than sex, as least as I remember it (sex that is). They have a number of other varieties that are also excellent. I tried Starbucks several times and found their coffee to be bitter and expensive. I don't use cream or sugar in coffee. My feeling is that if the coffee is any good to begin with, you don't need to disguise it with anything. So I pass on Starbucks. They can sell their overpriced, bitter coffee to yuppies that have money to waste and haven't figured out that Starbuck's coffee sucks. :rolleyes:

 

 

Mike T.

Yamaha Motif ES8, Alesis Ion, Prophet 5 Rev 3.2, 1979 Rhodes Mark 1 Suitcase 73 Piano, Arp Odyssey Md III, Roland R-70 Drum Machine, Digitech Vocalist Live Pro. Roland Boss Chorus Ensemble CE-1.

 

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Okay, you prefer Bucks County whole beans which goes for about ten, eleven bucks a pound... as opposed to Starbucks whole beans which goes for- Surprise, surprise! - about ten, eleven bucks a pound.

Many coffee connoisseurs wouldn't think of taking coffee without cream as it enhances the subtle layers of flavor. It doesn't disguise bad coffee. But you know what you like. That's cool. Good for you. I drink it black often too. I'm just saying....

 

But man, you need to stop pontificating about them ignorant "Yuppies".. By my clock, that generation are in their schfifty-fives plus now. Don'tcha think they've managed to figure out which coffee they want to waste that money they're just swimming in on?

 

Or is the premise - These Starbuck folk are so busy aquiring money and goods they've never had the chance to compare and contrast or even taste what they shovel into their maws?

 

 

Or is the premise- One's coffee brand is a status symbol? Naaaw. That's just stupid.

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I stoppped in a Starbucks for the first time ever this evening. (mostly because of this thread). I have to say, the coffee was great, the service was terrific, people were nice and the place was spotless. I'm gonna go back.

 

Also, I researched the company's history and it is amazing. This place started as a little "mom and pop" coffee house in the '70's and turned into this... If that is not the American Dream, I don't know what is. :thu:

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Originally posted by the stranger:

I worked security for Nestle R&D for 8 1/2 years and could tell you a whole lot of shit about the food industry.

You're familiar with IFF, then?

 

Ever wonder why you can taste that Big Mac 12 hours later?

 

Ack. :freak:

this house is empty now...
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The coffee that Starbucks uses is garbage. Poorly sorted, low quality beans that are way over-roasted.

 

They burn the hell out of it because people are more agreeable to tasting char than thay are to tasting sour or astringent which is what their coffee would be if it was medium-roasted.

 

I guess it's palitable if you add enough whipped cream and vanilla. But if that's the case, why not just go to DQ and get a sundae?

"You never can vouch for your own consciousness." - Norman Mailer
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Originally posted by Gabriel E.:

The coffee that Starbucks uses is garbage. Poorly sorted, low quality beans that are way over-roasted.

 

They burn the hell out of it because people are more agreeable to tasting char than thay are to tasting sour or astringent which is what their coffee would be if it was medium-roasted.

 

I guess it's palitable if you add enough whipped cream and vanilla. But if that's the case, why not just go to DQ and get a sundae?

For quite a while, Starbucks has had a variety both dark and medium roasts available, each with its own character.

 

And yes, I think for a bunch of people, an espresso drink at Starbucks is very much like a dessert. Nothing wrong with that, IMO.

 

I also enjoy a good cup of coffee from other coffee shops on occasion, and a "dessert-style" drink that is available at another local coffee shop, so I'm not a Starbucks "sheep" - but I can't stand the typical Denny's / Maxwell House / Convenience Store type stuff any more. Even some bolder "gourmet" coffees that are more widely available now (IMO, thank's to the popularity of Starbucks) (e.g. the coffee served at Krispy Kreme or some "gourmet" offerings now available at convenience stores), don't taste good to me.

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