Does anyone here use an expander?

[KenElevenShadows]

Here's something that doesn't get discussed very often - expanders. I have these Waves Compressors. Well, it turns out that they do expansion as well. They're kinda handy sometimes. I had some very very limp bass playing/sounds, and was able to give the bass line a lot more definition. That kind of thing. Also did the same thing by giving a spike to a lifeless kick.

 

Does anyone else use an expander? For what applications? What are some of your favorite applications?

[philbo_Tangent]

They're really handy for pushing down low-level noise into inaudibility.

 

I typically set it to take everything below -50 dBFS and push it down to -70 dB.

 

Of course this is not a good idea to do to stuff with desirable low-level events, like cymbal fadeouts, reverb tails and so on. It's best used on raw tracks (with no FX) with well-defined note-in/note-out type of dynamics - - singing, for example.

[deanmass]

This not one of those pump like devices from Sweden?

 

If so, those are not my bag, baby...

[halljams]

One of the coolest compression products i have seen lately is the Elemental audio Neodynium.

It is multilevel expansion and compression.

Multi-level meaning , as opposed to multi-frequency like a multiband, it uses the same concept dynamically. So you can have up to 4 bands of compression, one dealing with say a range of -50db to -35bd, one band from -35 to -20, one band from -20 to -10 and one for the top transients -10 to 0 dbfs.

Each can have their own time constants and there is a smoking key section for filtering the compression hotspots.

 

Not to mention this mufukka sounds great.

 

I suggest everyone check it out cause it opens alot of doors.

 

It makes it easy to make tracks louder while leaving the top most transients alone. You can dial in the -30 to -15db range for example and bring out the body of the track or bring up room sounds down lower without touching the high level stuff at all.

Plus it will detect transients or RMS and it has good metering.

No i don't own stocks.

[Martin Kantola]

Highly underrated devices!

 

Expanders, and especially (software-based) ultra-fast and clean are in my opinion superb tools for cleaning up a drum track as an example.

 

Never liked gates, because they eat the music and dynamics, but since expanders work more WITH the music they simply sound much better to me.

 

Martin

[KenElevenShadows]

Originally posted by Martin Kantola:

Highly underrated devices!

 

Expanders, and especially (software-based) ultra-fast and clean are in my opinion superb tools for cleaning up a drum track as an example.

 

Never liked gates, because they eat the music and dynamics, but since expanders work more WITH the music they simply sound much better to me.

 

Martin

So far, I've used it for kicks and bass tracks. It brought up the "pluck" of the bass, and for kicks, it's seriously done wonders! With the Waves RCompressor expander, you can control the transients that get expanded, and it's really made the kick much punchier and livelier. Same with the bass.

 

And as you say, it's WAAAAAY better than a gate.

 

This is the first time I've ever had an expander before, but it's so nice to have.

 

I have about 3-4 tracks that had some bad sounding kicks and basses, and this has really cleaned it up and made it much punchier. My newer tracks don't seem to need it at all, but for things like this, it's wonderful!!!!

[KenElevenShadows]

Originally posted by halljams:

One of the coolest compression products i have seen lately is the Elemental audio Neodynium.

It is multilevel expansion and compression.

Multi-level meaning , as opposed to multi-frequency like a multiband, it uses the same concept dynamically.

I've heard people practically frothing at the mouth over this product, actually. The thing that helps here is that I (somewhat) knew what it accomplished, but wasn't sure how it went about doing it until you described it here. Thanks! That seems like a fairly sophisticated level of expansion/compression/wave-shaping, but at the same time, seems like it would be quite easy to use.

[Tedster]

Originally posted by deanmass:

This not one of those pump like devices from Sweden?

 

If so, those are not my bag, baby...

HAHAHA!!!

[ryst]

Hey, Ken!

 

Could you or anyone else here explain to me how an expander works? And some starting points on how to use one? It's one of the (many) things in audio I haven't really understood so far.

[KenElevenShadows]

Originally posted by ryst:

Hey, Ken!

 

Could you or anyone else here explain to me how an expander works? And some starting points on how to use one? It's one of the (many) things in audio I haven't really understood so far.

Hmmmm...I know WHAT an expander does, but HOW it does it...well, quite frankly, I have no clue!!! It's essentially the opposite of a compressor in function, expanding the dynamic range of the program material. But what's under the hood? Anyone???

[KenElevenShadows]

Originally posted by ryst about expanders:

And some starting points on how to use one?

Um, as far as actually using one, I've only just started using it. But essentially, I needed more articulation on a bass track, as it seemed lifeless. So I reasoned that if I took what little attack (the pluck of the strings) and exaggerated it with the expander, it would create more articulation. And fortunately, I was right! With the particular program that I have, I can control the attack and release, so I made the attack very short because I was concerned primarily with the initial transient.

 

I did more or less the same thing with the controls for the kick, which was really quite lifeless and dull. I dug out some of the attack with a compressor, but it wasn't quite what I wanted, and I had much better luck with the expander, once again exaggerating the initial attack. The other thing with the kick was that it pulled more of the kick away from the snare leakage, letting me work on the kick more without affecting the snare that had leaked on to the track. Does that make sense? It's early morning, after all...in other words, it makes the kick much louder relative to the snare than it was before, allowing me to work on the kick without affecting the snare so much. Increased dynamic range.

 

I'm very pleased with how well this all works and hence, this thread. Gotta share my new love for expansion...

[Martin Kantola]

The way I see it:

 

An expander works like the exact opposite of a compressor, the more level the signal you put into it has, the more amplification it gets. Like "Whee, here comes a really loud part, let's turn it up even more!"

 

With a high ratio setting, you can get incredibly high output levels, it's just like an inverted peak limiter.

 

By the way, I used expansion today on a mix of a jazz band to reduce drums bleeding through the clarinet mike when the guy wasn't playing. Faster than automation!

 

Martin

[philbo_Tangent]

Well, a plug-in expander is like any other plug-in; it's a math transform.

 

But whether it's a plugin or a circuit, the idea is sort of similar to a compressor:

1) You tell it when to 'kick in' during the duraiton of a sound with the attack control.

2) You tell it when to return gain to normal, after each 'attack', with the release control.

3) You tell it what range of sound levels to affect with the threshold control.

4) You set the basic output level by using 'makeup gain'.

5)Within the range of levels you picked in (3), you tell it how to alter the levels.

 

Only (5) is different between a compressor and expander.

 

With a compressor, you might tell it to do a 2:1 ratio. This means when the sound to be affected rises 6 dB, you only let it rise 3 dB. When it rises by 4 dB, you only let it rise 2 dB.

 

When expanding, the ratio is inverted. So a 1:2 ratio means when the sound rises 2 dB, you're going to change that to a 4 dB rise. And so on...

 

Make sense?

[kylen]

Originally posted by halljams:

One of the coolest compression products i have seen lately is the Elemental audio Neodynium.

 

...It makes it easy to make tracks louder while leaving the top most transients alone. You can dial in the -30 to -15db range for example and bring out the body of the track or bring up room sounds down lower without touching the high level stuff at all.

I've been thinking about this most informative post - very cool. I like the visual I'm getting from the Neodynium multi-level interface (parts of it anyway - I don't get the colored power metering).

 

I'm wondering how different the sound of Neodynium is where I would compress/expand the -30db to -15db range, or just take another dynamics processor and set the threshold low and open up the attack to pass the transients.

 

I just picked up a Wave Arts multi-band compressor/expander (in this one the expander is downward). It allows you to set a threshold and an upper/lower range centered at threshold - essentially creating a single level zone like in Neodynium. I think Waves has a "range" control on its some of its' dynamics processors (I don't own any) that allows dynamics processing for a certain few db past the threshold instead of everything under the threshold, or everything above the threshold.

 

I'm just gettin into this range/zone stuff that's why your post caught my ear...I think there's something pretty powerful to it!

[halljams]

Kylen, i suspect that even if you open the attack on a low threshold setting on a regular single band you are still affecting the louder transients. There are transients at low levels too.

I have been playing with this type of compression alot lately and find that an adjustable knee is really helpful.

Starting on page 11 of THIS MANUAL you can find some good info on approaches.

Neodynium allows you to totally bypass the upper dynamic register.

The waves stuff like the C4 allows for this low register type of compression and expansion as well but i have played with it and found it kinda unsatisfying, maby i just sucked at it!

But i grasped their concept of setting an equal gain and range and setting the threshold down low. Their concept is that the knee evens out after a period of time to NO compression so that by the time it reaches the high level stuff it doesn't affect it.

Anyway, neodynium makes it much easier imo.

Fun stuff

[kylen]

Originally posted by Ken/Eleven Shadows:

I did more or less the same thing with the controls for the kick, which was really quite lifeless and dull. I dug out some of the attack with a compressor, but it wasn't quite what I wanted, and I had much better luck with the expander, once again exaggerating the initial attack.

I've used a downward expander (MB in Ozone) to work on a kick also. Instead of emphasizing and pushing on certain parts of the envelope from the top down (by letting more of the initial transient thru but compressing more of the body) the downward expander seemed to emphasize the kick by damping the body of the kick as the sustain decayed (by decaying it sooner once a certain decay level or threshold was reached). Also the density of the kick seemed different than when I hit it with a compressor...maybe I'm doing it wrong - that's always the possibility!

 

It is nice to get the noise floor out of the way every once in a while though!

[kylen]

Originally posted by halljams:

Starting on page 11 of THIS MANUAL you can find some good info on approaches.

Thank you Sir! I'll be checkin this out after work tonight

[KenElevenShadows]

Has anyone ever tried an expander on acoustic guitars and vocals to reduce things like, oh, say, an airplane flying overhead in the middle of an otherwise outstanding take?

[kylen]

ut-oh that could be trouble...if it was a jet I'd say it would be a great time for the song to have a flanger in it - but you already know that!

[deanmass]

This sounds to me a bit like a BBE Sonic Maximizer...

[halljams]

Originally posted by deanmass:

This sounds to me a bit like a BBE Sonic Maximizer...

Ya mean a jet?

[alfonso]

Originally posted by deanmass:

This sounds to me a bit like a BBE Sonic Maximizer...

BBE S.M. is based mainly on phase relationship of the frequencies.

 

I see the expander as a great cleaning tool, if I need something like a gate I use an expander with robust settings.

[aeon]

Way to go, Ken...this thread will be the genesis of an industry-wide abuse of expansion that will be closely associated with the sound of commercial releases 2006-2011, or thereabouts.

 

Once it was lifeless drums, once it was digital reverb, once it was autotune...but now, the latest releases will have to be "Kenned" during mastering.

 

 

cheers,

aeon

[KenElevenShadows]

Originally posted by aeon:

Way to go, Ken...this thread will be the genesis of an industry-wide abuse of expansion that will be closely associated with the sound of commercial releases 2006-2011, or thereabouts.

 

Once it was lifeless drums, once it was digital reverb, once it was autotune...but now, the latest releases will have to be "Kenned" during mastering.

 

 

cheers,

aeon

Super Expansion. Now it's soft passages followed by woofer-shredding loud passages.

 

All part of my scheme for World Domination.