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IT'S OFFICIAL! Come, my little Mac lovelies, come to the dark side...

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That's amusing -- and I think there will be a competitive showdown between Apple and MS -- for the Living Room -- but he gets a lot of his supporting "facts" wrong.


Apple has already announced they'll be using the Yonah -- the next gen Pentium M. That doesn't mean they can't also use Intel 64 bit chips down the road or that a 64 bit version of the Pentium M isn't next in the pipeline. But the fact that Cringely apparently missed the announcement should be telling.


(Not sure where Cringely was going with his musing on the Altivec Factor. But it has to be noted that while the PPC had good features, it also had performance bottlenecks like its pokey memory access -- double the times for AMD and Intel's competing chips.)


AMD has made it clear that the lines of communication are open with AMD. Sure, this could be misdirection, but it seems more that they're trying to reassure the market that they won't need to make a major jump of architectures for a long time.


Further, his reasoning on the AMD thing is a bit faulty, since the AMD chips are pushing their current wafering technology near its perceived limits. And, while their power consumption is competitive with the old architecture of the P4 -- it is not competitive with the new, lower-power architecture of the Pentium M.


The pre-announcement makes sense from some angles and is problematic from others -- like so many difficult decisions. I can't help but think there will be plenty of customers looking to get that last PPC machine -- which is, after all, an established, working platform -- to tide them over until the chip-architecture upheaval has settled down.


Hell, if I was a Mac user who depended on my machine for my work -- even though I'm a big fan of the Pentium M -- I'd probably wait and see if prices didn't drop a bit and then make that one last PPC purchase, myself. Change is a lot more fun when you're not betting the farm it will be trouble-free. (A sucker bet, that, in any technology milieu.)


Finally -- and this is big -- I'm pretty sure Cringely completely misunderstands the type of DRM in the new Intel chips. As he notes, the processor ID numbers are pretty well old news. The new DRM -- at least according to what I have read in numerous sources -- goes far beynond just stamping a media file with a UID. It, if the reports are correct, actually prevents unauthorized copying through the CPU.


Just as Cringely apparently missed the PM announcement, he seems to have missed this crucial fact, too. (Which prods me to ask, Why does this guy think he has any business writing an industry blog?)



When I got to the Intel-buys-Apple thing though, I just had to laugh.


Ok. For sure -- never say never.


But, in my gut, thinking about the personalities of the players, this seems beyond extremely unlikely.


Apple is, in many ways, poised to make their biggest play ever -- the push to dominate the Living Room.


Apple long ago conceded the business world to MS and that's not going to change. Their server division made a stab with some decent and decently priced servers (although they're undercut a little bit the extremely disappointing performance of the Darwin-wrapping-Mach core of OS X in heavy concurrency applications. Still, no reason you can't run Linux -- which can outperform OS X server by a factor of ten or more at moderate-heavy loads (ie, 50 users).


The Living Room is unconquered territory, though, for the most part. (With the important exception, of course, of game boxes. And they have been expanding their functionalities, as we've seen. But none of them are, yet, full-use computers. By a stretch.)


Apple, among all others, seems poised, balanced on the phemomenal success of their iPods, with the foundation for a "perfect" living room pc in the Mini. Put a decent hard drive, an even faster chip (the dual core G4 in it now, is a pretty fast chip, as it is, for that price point in the Mac line) and a decent amount of RAM for OS X in it (something more like a GB would probably be more in keeping with the kind of loads you'd expect on a media pc, given OS X's fairly high RAM demands) -- and make sure you don't add a fan! -- and you'd have a pretty rockin' little living room box.


[Now there are those who've suggested that Microsoft actually will welcome Apple's defacto leadership in the living room. And it must be noted that MS themselves have been one of the most supportive of Apple's architecture shift by announcing that their products for the new platform are ready to ship on target.]


Now, maybe, to make that play, Apple would need the resources that an Intel-Apple union (or subsumption, depending on how it you look at it).


But just thinking about the company and the personalities involved -- not to mention the chunk of change Apple is reputedly sitting on, allowing them to fend off seemingly any hostile takeover -- and I just think the Intel-buys-Apple theory is plain silly.


But, you know, never say never.



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Am I missing something here? Won't DRM be used to prevent software piracy, too? Wasn't that always the biggest selling point for Wintel machines: you don't need to buy software for your new computer, you can just "borrow" my $10,000 MSRP collection of software and load it on (can't do that if you buy an Apple). Yeah, I know, everyone here has bought every piece of software they've ever used, or they just use GNU or freeware or whatever. :) (Mac users aren't saints, either, just harder to "share" with 2%.) Mac vs. PC? Both lose.


The chip speed crow-eating. Well, actually, Apple is going to use 2006 chips, not the current ones. Could well be that Intel will catch up by then. ;) Well, you guys are right on this one, it's a heat issue. The ironic twist you failed to mention, however, is that early on the Pentiums had the heat crisis.


The biggest thing I'll miss is having a practically virus-free machine. Laugh my ass off every week as another worm makes its rounds and skips me.


But then again, DRM will prevent all the viruses. Right? :D

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Originally posted by theblue1:

Apple has already announced they'll be using the Yonah -- the next gen Pentium M. That doesn't mean they can't also use Intel 64 bit chips down the road or that a 64 bit version of the Pentium M isn't next in the pipeline.

2 things,Yonah is still running too hot and neither Yonah nor M is slated for 64 bit which makes me even more surprised at Jobs move to Intel rather than AMD as AMD still clearly has the jump with current 64 bit chips as well as winning current dualcore benches(still too early on that though).I'm mean,Sonar is nearly ready on 64 and killing and Apple would have a complete package in Logic softening any 64 bit upgrade investments,but it's clear that Apple will be late to the 64 bit party.I'm not sure what kind of contract Jobs signed with Intel but he may have to get used to being number 2 which doesn't jive with his reasoning for the switch,I mean,IBM already had a 64 bit dualcore ready waiting.
"A Robot Playing Trumpet Blows"
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I don't know why this thread has taken off so much, but to me, the thing I love about apple now is OS X, not the processor. I like the elegance of their hardware, but other generic boxes are starting to copy them.


Apple, from what I understand, chose intel as a way to get intel and apple back in the game against AMD and MS. Operteron freaking rock, but run hot, and heat is the biggest failing I see for apple on the g5, because it totally hoses their pb line.


Phait, honestly, I don't get you sometime, and I mean that in a very respectful way. You have so many graphics skills. I really think you need a partner to collaborate with. You are an articulate, talented dude, but you seem really down on you self a kind of easily side tracked.


It's all gonna be OK.


So, in your case, I'd think of it two ways. One, load up a lower end g5, and wait on the huge screen, or go apple ape and get your dream rig...either way, you'll be busy

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Originally posted by deanmass:

I like the elegance of their hardware, but other generic boxes are starting to copy them.

Are you talking about the way the boxes look? Because the rest of the hardware for G5's-G4's is exactly the same exact components and brands that PC uses(sans chip/chipset)

Operteron freaking rock, but run hot,

Apart from the Pentium M(mobile),they run cooler than any desktop Intel equivalent.Heat is not really an issue for AMD at the moment except for their mobile line .In fact like I pointed out earlier,Intels upcoming Yonah is running way too hot at the moment and was just one of the many reasons Itanium failed,and probably the reason why Apple is avoiding Intels new dualcore(D)and sticking with the lowerscale M chip.in short,apart from Intels M Chip,the rest of their line runs hotter than AMD's offerings.
"A Robot Playing Trumpet Blows"
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I'm not sure what you guys mean by Apple being late for the 64-bit party. :confused:


Their current OS and G5s are already 64-bit:


Posted at Apple - Developing 64-bit Applications :

Tiger obliterates that restriction and allows applications to access a 64-bit address space when running on the PowerPC G5.






My Blue Someday appears on Apple Music | Spotify | YouTube | Amazon

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When Steve Wozniak was an employee at Hewlett-Packard (where he met 13-year-old Steve Jobs, who had been given a summer job by Bill Hewlett) HP had a deal where employees could get Motorola 6502 processors for 25 bucks. An 8088 was about $200. That's the reason Apple doesn't use Intel chips.


I think Cringely is onto something, especially when he drags HP into the equation. An Intel/Apple/HP combination represents the coming together of two strands of the Silicon Valley mythology.


The Intel strand begins with William Shockley, the co-inventor of the transistor, founding Shockley Electronics while he was a professor at Stanford. Due to the fact that Shockley was an unmitigated asshole, eight engineers, including Gordon Moore, left Shockley to found Fairchild. Gordon Moore went on found Intel and become famous for Moore's law.


To understand the HP/Apple strand, you have to realize that HP wasn't always a company that made most of it's money selling ink. The old HP was the most beloved company in the Valley; it was the ideal of what a tech company should be. Apple, in the era of the two Steves, was based very closely on the HP model. And although he lacks the generosity of spirit possessed by Dave Packard and, Bill Hewlett, the core values of the old HP must still shine somewhere in the depths of Steve Jobs's dark soul.


Although Intel and Apple are huge corporations, their roots run deep in the Valley soil, past the rotting roots of the prune orchards upon which they were built. Intel's CEO, Craig Barrett was born and raised in the Bay Area and was an Associate Professor at Stanford before he started at Intel. Steve Jobs is a Los Altos kid. Despite outward appearances, these two companies have a deep affinity and a real sense of shared history.


I'm sure both companies hate what HP has become and would like to drag them along for the ride, if only to restore some semblance of what used to be. Why else would Steve let HP make iPods?


This isn't about DRM, 64 bit architecture and whatnot. It's about reasserting the values of the Silicon Valley and the Valley's domination of the industry. And, of course, fucking over Bill Gates. He is not of The Valley.

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dayvel makes that almost convincing. But, if that's the case, it's certainly belied by all the kissy-face antics between MS and Apple surrounding this announcement. MS has appeared to be highly enthusiastic, saying that their software for the new platform is on target for shipping alongside it.


And, call me a sentimentalist, but I think that half billion dollars that Bill and MS loaned apple right when Apple needed it most may have bought Gate a little wiggle room in Jobs' heart. Plus, we keep hearing that the two men have become much better friends in the last few years and acutally chat together 'frequently.'


Granted, you can't remove the personality factor when you're looking at the reasons why these companies, particularly Apple, make strategic decisions.


But these people have billions of dollars riding on their decisions. Making them based on whim or emotion is not SOP for corporations this size -- not even these corporations.



As for pooh-poohing the DRM angle, don't you all read the computer press? What on earth do you think Apple's strategy for the next five or ten years is? It's been said over and over: they're out to dominate the living room entertainment equipment and software market in a way they never had a chance to in tne office.


That seems blatantly obvious to me. Your reality may differ...

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Here's what you can run with a PC Phait, I know because I do( at some point or other I have been exposed to most of them ;) )


Graphics 3d- Maya, Softimage XSI, Lightwave, 3D Studio Max, Modo,Pixar's Renderman, Mental Ray, Houdini, Amorphium, Blender, Poser, Bryce, Vue d'Esprit, Mojoworld Generator, World Construction Set, on and on.....


2d- Photoshop, Paint Shop Pro, Corel Draw, Corel Paint, The Gimp, Paint.net, Xenodream, PhotoImpact, Z-Brush, etc....


Video- Vegas, Adobe's Premier and After Effects, older versions of Shake, any Ulead product, TMPEGinc, Flask, etc....


Web- Microsoft Frontpage(Boo!! ;) ), anything Macromedia( Yay! :) ), anything Adobe, etc...I don't do webstuff so never learned more than a handful of apps.


Sound- Cakewalk Sonar, Magix Samplitude, Magix Sequoia, Steinberg Cubase SX, Steinberg Nuendo, Pro Tools ( as a turnkey system based on the NT kernel ;) ), Traktion, Sound Forge, Adobe Audition, Acid, older versions of Logic, Spectrasonics Atmosphere and Trilogy, Tascam Gigastudio, anything Native Instruments, anything Waves, on and on....


So what couldn't you do with a PC?


By the way, spend $500.00 on a PC and $2000.00 on a Mac and don't expect equivalent quality ;)


This is not meant as a PC vrs. Mac thing but more of a here's what you can do with a PC thing so please try to read it that way :)


Darkon the Incandescent





Hail Vibrania!

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Y'know, blue - one thing to keep in mind also is that Apple is the best example in the argument that MS has a monopoly. No more Apple, they have no one left to point at & say "See?". But - let Apple start making a significant dent in that market, & see how fast the old tactics return Their support could just as easily be a case of greeting your enemy with a smile, to conceal the knife behind your back.
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Oh, I think it will be very intersting, to be sure. Bill Gates grew up competing with his siblings, they tell us, loves to compete. And, clearly, Jobs is a competitive guy as well.


OTOH, some observers have suggested that MS actually is welcoming Apple's entry into the media center pc market, with the notion that MS has had great difficulty getting even early adopters to go that route.


Apple, OTOH, obviously has a direct line into the heads of much of the general media. They can get the media excited about almost anything and get them to write almost anything -- no matter how blatantly divergent from reality it may be.


As well, Apple has a core (you should pardon the expression) of extremely loyal customers who will more or less follow them anywhere.



With that kind of market-pioneering clout, Apple is a clear choice to finally get that market on the map.


When it's established, the thinking is, then MS can work on a competitive second generation of media pc applications (and hardware?), doing what it's perceived they do best, entering or re-entering established markets with incremental innovations and improvements and dogged determination.


[ADDENDUM: CNET reprinted this article that seems to analyze things pretty well... http://news.com.com/Whats+really+behind+Apple-Intel+alliance/2100-1047_3-5742034.html ]


[ADDENDUM 2: (So I don't bounce this damn thread, y'know? :D ) And, of coruse, MS has their own hedge strategy in the form of the Xbox. The Windows Media Center PC's haven't exactly turned the world upside down, but at least the Xbox is an established player in the console arena; and console boxes are being extended in the current generation to be ever more media-center-like. ]

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Darkon - you're just preachin' to the choir :D


I've been with PC's years and understand them fairly well and can usually resolve problems given time. Macs are new to me, to be honest, even after almost 2 years. But really, I prefer Mac for creating and PC for gaming. I don't really see it changing. Although I do prefer Windows more tactile-feel GUI over Mac OS X blah-GUI, mostly when it comes to Photoshop (although maybe it's my narrow mouse).

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Originally posted by Angelo Clematide:


it's about time that the boat arrived, and the pirates are back in chains. Probably only anarchos, and people who do not create, don't like it!

Actually, copy protection goes beyond this and punishes people who do create. I don't have any problem with laws to protect IP rights, but I don't think this requires punishing the people who want to create but have to find all kinds of workarounds just to do a simple task.


*The inability for me to back up media that I purchase is a scam.*

*The inability to back up media I created is a scam.*

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Within 10 years we'll have nano computers that will trounce on anything out today that will probably be the size of a credit card that you can carry in your wallet. All you'll have to do is whip it out and place it near all your wireless peripherals or somebody else's and viola you're in business. I'm sure it will be totally backwards compatible with all software on all platforms since day one.



You shouldn't chase after the past or pin your hopes on the future.
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