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IT'S OFFICIAL! Come, my little Mac lovelies, come to the dark side...


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Good Lord... :rolleyes:

 

Look - whining about Apple 'caving in' to DRM is pointless. Apple never has been a huge player in the computer market, and they certainly do not carry enough market force to make a stand that counts, even if they wanted to.

 

Bottom line: they are a corporation, like any other. If they want to play in the "content" game (which they obviously do), then they are going to have to work with the flow & not just rail against it. If all the forces array to promote DRM & Apple stands on the side saying "No" for the sake of being "different", then they will go out of business & you won't have ANY choice in platforms.

 

Now, if you don't want to give them money because of this, fine. You can always use your current machine until it dies, then buy an old one off of someone else, or you can go live in the woods & hit things with sticks instead. But: corporations listen to their customers and stockholders - not people who they aren't going to make any money from anyway. If you want to have a say, then buy Apple stock, or voice your opinion as a customer along with other customers. But just throwing your hands in the air & crying "I quit!" doesn't accomplish jack-shit.

 

And BTW - Linux does has come a long way with audio from 6 years ago, when I started using it & looking for audio apps, so don't be so quick to dismiss it. Also don't forget: OSX is *BSD UNIX underneath - so there's very little that stands in the way of Logic for Linux, if Apple decides they want to go that route.

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For the record, the main thing that holds Linux and BSD back from being a serious DAW (or anything else) is proper hardware drivers. For some reason, hardware manufacturers either don't want to release the specs of their hardware to Average Joe Programmer, or they want to sell the specs, or license a developer kit for it. Usually it's option #1, but options #2 and #3 typically involve lots of $$ (up into the thousands).

 

Since most F/OSS developers are doing this as a hobby, it gets hard to lay out the cash to get the specs to write a driver for someone's peripheral. (Some want to spew the conspiracy theory that Microsoft and Apple pay hardware manufacturers a "silencing fee" to continually say 'no' to the Linux and BSD developers, but i can't personally verify this).

 

What ends up happening is drivers get reverse engineered from the binary Windows drivers or the developers do the "brute force attack", which involves buying said hardware (out of their own pocket), and probing all its ports systematically and seeing how it responds. Both methods take a long time and can obviously be prone to inaccuracies.

 

The software is good, but the drivers are teh sux.

Dr. Seuss: The Original White Rapper

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I just took a look at a few Linux DAWS. They looked nice judging from the screenshots but I dunno if they're really up to par. I also read of people running Photoshop on WINE and another API layer app, CrossOver with either little or no performance difference. The main concern though is color calibration, very important for print.

 

I could move to Linux, but it still seems premature for what I need to do.

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A Farraday cage is the best solution so far for Phait's dilemna...

 

;)

 

__________________________________________

 

Anyhow, the latest article from MacWorld seems to back up what I've been saying about just what chips Apple was most interested in (the Pentium M line):

 

The first Apple systems in 2006 will use Intels Pentium M processor, according to sources familiar with the companies plans. The Pentium M uses the same x86 architecture as the Pentium 4, but consumes far less power than Pentium 4 chips and its design philosophy is expected to be the model for Intels future processors. Apple spokespeople did not return repeated calls seeking comment, and an Intel spokesman declined to comment on Apples product decisions.
As well as Apples' nonentity status with IBM, vis a vis the market clout of new PPC uses like gameboxes:

 

Apple accounted for just around 2 percent of IBMs chip wafer production in East Fishkill, according to industry sources, and IBM is moving away from making chips for the PC market in favor of gaming consoles and high-end servers. An IBM spokesman declined to comment on the nature of his companys relationship with Apple, but the company put out a statement indicating it probably wont miss Apples business.

And Freescale -- which had produced the dual-G4 that ships with the Mac Mini -- was otherwise involved with embedded and mobile phone markets and was not prepared to make the same kind of commitments to future development of the chip that Intel made to Apple for Intel chips.

 

 

And Apple, it would seem, is keeping the lessons it learned from their experiences with IBM and Motorola/Freescale, by keeping lines of communication open with AMD:

 

One chip company on the outside looking in is Advanced Micro Devices Inc. (AMD) Several industry analysts felt that if Apple was ever going to move to x86 chips, it might have found AMD a more suitable partner given the underdog status of both companies and the competitiveness of AMDs Opteron and Athlon 64 processors. Apple and AMD have indeed talked about a relationship at certain points in their histories, and have worked together as members of the Hypertransport Consortium, said Drew Prairie, an AMD spokesman.

 

However, Prairie was not able to comment on any recent talks between AMD and Apple.

Looks like Apple has learned some valuable lessons about the importance of have a choice of options...

 

Something some of us have known for a while.

 

;)

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I agree to a point that good drivers are an issue, but I think that audio has been more of a niche of the total Linux userbase, and that keeps it from rising as fast. There are thousands of excellent apps for network-related activities, because that's the primary focus of the majority of Linux programmers.

 

However, there are musicians out there too, so there is progress being made - just slowly, compared to other areas. Hell, good drivers are an issue for Windows & Mac too - some don't bother to code for Mac, because they can get most of the market by aiming at Windows & that's that. Others cross over to pick up the Mac, but they are certainly fewer overall - I would think it's because of the large number of pro audio types that use Mac that anyone bothers to write Mac drivers at all.

 

What we have is a big catch-22: there is no perceived market for Linux, so hardware companies are reluctant to invest in drivers. Users can't find drivers for (X) card, so they don't want to move to Linux...and around it goes.

 

Also for the record, RME has had Linux support for years now. (I can't speak to the quality of the drivers because I've never used them. Anyone wants to send me an RME card, I'll be happy to check it out. :D ) There is also ALSA support for some Digigram cards, Echo cards, many M-Audio cards, Roland/Edirol interfaces, Sek'd Prodif Plus, not to mention TONS of consumer cards.

 

Interesting to think...with Apple moving to Intel-based systems, perhaps more UNIX-compatible drivers are on the horizon? This could certainly bode well for Linux, too.

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That's general good news, Christopher.

 

But I'm thinking the drivers for OS X might not have that much in common with appropriate UNIX drivers, since the OS X driver API, I'm guessin', would be part of Apple's Core Audio layer, rather than part of the Unix core, yeah?

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Well yeah, but it begs the question about exactly how adaptable Core Audio is. If BSD is the subsystem, and Core Audio is supposed to be on the OS-level, then perhaps it's already workable on x86 platforms? And therefore - theoretically, at least - portable to other UNIX systems?
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Oh, I really, really don't think so. At least not easily portable. (Anything is, with enough time and money, portable, after all.)

 

 

Core Audio wasn't even more or less complete until Panther, 10.3. It's an add on abstraction layer and it took them plenty of time to develop and work out as they played "catch up" to the audio/MIDI/plugin layers that have been in Windows starting in '96.

 

I'm not sure about Apple's own Logic 7.1, but as I understand it, 7.0 didn't even support all of Core Audio and Audio Units completely.

 

And, because of the amount of time and money invested in Core Audio, it seems unlikely Apple would let any of its hard-earned technology slip into the open source community willingly...

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In most BSD systems (or at least in FreeBSD), the way i understand it is that the hardware (read: soundcard) support is in the kernel, but the actual sound system (in this case Open Sound System) is outside of it, and also considered "outside of the Operating System".

 

Mind you, the BSDs are pretty cut-n-dry where they define OS and Not OS. Everything else- sound, video, GUI, applications, development utils, etc are considered "Not part of the OS". In fact, in poking around in an OSX system you can see the separation between "UNIX OS" and "Apple Added Bits" relatively clearly.

 

What is more likely, is that Apple pitched OSS and twiddled their existing audio system to interface the kernel (or (less likely) created a wrapper) and work in its place. Lots of legit reasons why they'd do this, the biggest reasons being that OSS isn't the greatest, and that everything else in OSX that relies on audio, either directly or indirectly, would have otherwise had to be rewritten.

 

However, this means that it {might work/could be made to work} with other UNIX systems, but it's still Apple's proprietary code, and they have no incentive or obligation to give it away or try to port it to anything else.

Dr. Seuss: The Original White Rapper

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OK, I didn't explain myself very well. :) You're right, of course - the audio system is not in the kernel. However, that underlines my point - that it is very possible to bring it over to x86/x64-type architectures. Unless they are going to abandon Core Audio that's pretty much what they're going to have to do, and it follows that if it's going to run on a BSD core, then another UNIX core is not that far fetched.

 

Now - I NEVER said that they were going to open-source it. That's a different subject altogether; but, it's not completely impossible either - the whole Darwin project is a nod to that possibility.

 

Still, that's not the only solution - OSS is actually paid-for code (ALSA is open-source) and if they were inclined, they could offer a version for sale. More likely I think, they might offer a regular PC-capable version of OS X (maybe XI, or XII) for people to purchase.

 

Incentive? Sell more software. iLife, anyone?

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Well... I honestly don't think there's going to be a huge potential market for an off-the-shelf OS X that can run on generic PCs.

 

The big costs of a computing system are application software and training.

 

Training is not entirely irrelevant to this but application investment is the switch-killer, seems to me -- it seems like only those who either do no real work on their computers (and we all know there are plenty of them) or those who are dissatisfied with the applications they're now using -- or those whose applications are already cross-platform and can get a reasonably priced crossgrade -- will be sufficiently motivated to switch.

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Well... I honestly don't think there's going to be a huge potential market for an off-the-shelf OS X that can run on generic PCs.

 

Not only that, Apple is probably uninterested in jumping into the driver/compatibility nightmare that results from 1500 different hardware manufacturers making products of varying quality. Windows has its own troubles, yes, but device drivers cause their share of the "Windows Experience" being 'subpar'. Historically, Apple controlled everything, which also meant vastly limiting the amount of hardware combinations in their machines. Apple would most likely not want to give up such control, as it would then have too much impact on the "Apple Experience" that they pride themselves on.

 

This is the heart of the whole "Plug N Play v.s. Plug N Pray" difference.

Dr. Seuss: The Original White Rapper

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WWND?

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Never underestimate the dissatisfaction of Windows users. ;) There are plenty of people who own computers for simple stuff: browsing, email, writing letters to family, Quicken, etc. There's not much that they could not do on a Mac. And anyone who's made the switch can tell you that it's not that difficult.

 

Given a fairly strong interest in the Mac Mini - the affordable Apple - then it starts to look viable to offer an alternative to folks who already have an investment in PC hardware, but who might not be altogether happy with Windows. Apple sells OS X anyway - each iteration costs the users the same as a major Windows upgrade, relatively speaking. Plus, they sell iLife for about $79 bucks now - port it over to generic PCs and you can easily multiply the market share of those applications.

 

Of course, it's all just speculation - but I think that it's a mistake to assume that these guys will play by the same rules forever. Apple does not want to be just a computer company anymore. They'd be serving a niche market forever. For better or worse, they've had to make major changes of course in order to grow, and they've paid off so far. A month ago no one would believe that they'd go with Intel - but change happens, friends.

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Never underestimate the dissatisfaction of Windows users.
Well, that might have been what they were thinking when the pumped the "Switch" campaign. But, as I understand Apple's own numbers, less than 2% of the the non-Mac users who came into the then-new Apple Stores during the campaign actually ended up buying Macs...
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this will be the real birth of a BIG APPLE !!!

 

and for sure not the death of this fabulous machinery....

 

Copyprotection:

it's about time that the boat arrived, and the pirates are back in chains. Probably only anarchos, and people who do not create, don't like it!

-Peace, Love, and Potahhhhto
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Originally posted by theblue1:

But, as I understand Apple's own numbers, less than 2% of the the non-Mac users who came into the then-new Apple Stores during the campaign actually ended up buying Macs...

...which is why it would make more sense to sell the other 98% of interested parties an OS that they could run on their existing PC. ;)
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You know, sometimes it's hard to take a zealot seriously. And this is one topic that has planty of zealots.

 

planty?

 

[Note from Mr. Moderator person: I deleted this picture of a large marijuana garden not because of the subject matter, but because it was taking up too much space and making the posts difficult to read. Here's the link if you want to see it.]

 

http://www.marijuana.org/pictures8-6-99/LowerGardenAll.JPG

Dr. Seuss: The Original White Rapper

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WWND?

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If that's what I think it is, you better delete it quick before Fantasticsound see's it.

 

Yep, that's definately a patio set with jugs of water on it. What's he got against that?

Dr. Seuss: The Original White Rapper

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Anyone concerned about issues like DRM should investigate joining a group like the EFF

 

I think that would be more effective than abstaining from any (or all) computers.

 

drfuzz

"I'm just here to regulate the funkiness"
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Phait,

 

Through all of this discussion about DRM, album projects, and careers in graphic design, we've overlooked the most obvious solution to your dilemma...

 

Get a fully loaded top of the line Dual 2.7 G5 with a 30" display, Logic 7.1 and the latest copy of Photoshop and you'll be more than set for the next several years. Certainly enough time to get your music and graphics careers off to a roaring start.

 

And you'll have a rockin' system with NO DRM to boot!!!

 

As always, I'm glad I could help. :idea:

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Phil,

 

What's really funny is that my gf belongs to the Wisconsin Reef Society. (Insert "Reefer Girl" jokes). The "Reef" is as in "Coral Reef"- you know, huge expensive and beautiful tanks full of living coral and tropical fish and crustaceons.

 

What's even funnier than that, is that the same (expensive) high-power full-spectrum lights that are required to keep a reef tank alive are sold much cheaper as "grow lights" in magazines such as "High Times", which in some places you can only get by subscription.

 

What's even funnier than that is that these lights tend to show up a lot in the infra-red scopes of a lot of police choppers/planes.

 

What even funnier than that is that just about everyone i've met from the Reef Club has a story of being raided by the cops. Strangely, they seem to enjoy it- once it's determined that they're not growing a bunch of pot in their basement, they tend to break out some refreshments, give the extended tour, and a great time is had by all.....

 

Crazy!

 

A thanks to Craig for modifying the image in my post- due to browser auto-scaling and a big monitor i didn't realise it was that big.

 

Now... i think i've dragged this thread off topic enough for the hour ;)

Dr. Seuss: The Original White Rapper

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WWND?

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