Jump to content
Please note: You can easily log in to MPN using your Facebook account!

DAW Editing: Where does the music stop and the frankenstein start?


Recommended Posts

On the Mackie forum we are discussing the use of a click track when recording a band. However someone posted that it no longer matters because everything is moved and "Pro Tooled" anyway.

 

Then if that were not enough...sounds are triggered from samplers so in essence what you have is a record with a lot of samples put together. So basically, whether you record with or without a click doesn`t matter was the basic idea of that post.

 

What I`m trying to figure out is where does the music stop in this vast array of editing features we have at our reach with DAWs.

 

The term "Pro Tooled" is used loosely because we all know we can edit the same in DP, Logic, Cubase, Live, etc... so no offense to the PT users amongst us.

 

At what point is the band no longer a band? Is it after an entire drum track has been spliced and diced to be in time or after the drums have been triggered from a sampler for a "better" sound?

 

Where does the music stop and the frankenstein begin?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 39
  • Created
  • Last Reply

It depends on the vision of the artist/producer and it's a matter of principles/ethics.

 

I have "produced" several talent-less chicks, whose managers think they could make a star from them (polishing a turd, basically) with the proper -lack of- clothing, lights and good musical production. I get money from that -never enough it seems- by CREATING a musical hit from zero... anyway, those "stars" simple move their mouth and bodies and that's enough for their targeted audiences.

 

However when producing a BAND -or any other authentic musical project- I do use technology to achieve certain sound which might -or not- be fully reproduced while playing live or at least, which might complement as backing tracks with the band playing in the top of it. Then I do use music to IMPROVE a good recording/performance.

 

Using technology to make a terrible band sound good WITHOUT an Ashlee Simpson's style marketing is a terrible mistake... :eek: ... just wait to see'em playing live... and run :D

Músico, Productor, Ingeniero, Tecnólogo

Senior Product Manager, América Latina y Caribe - PreSonus

at Fender Musical Instruments Company

 

Instagram: guslozada

Facebook: Lozada - Música y Tecnología

 

www.guslozada.com

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Not an answer here... but a different point of view; devil's advocate.

 

How about: Should a composer, arranger or a plain musicmaker be held back by the fact that maybe he doesn't "play" instruments well. Maybe what he can do is dream up masterpieces but can not play the actual instruments. Should he not attempt to "record" his music.

 

That was just a thought.

 

Known: Average musicians can make awesome music.

 

Technically awesome players have been known to create crap.

 

Beatles... need I say more?

 

Still, I agree that a lot of crap has been polished with our "tools". Still, not their fault. General public just seems to like mediocre, fast food type music so... if it sells, why not!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

A band is no more a band when the final result sucks.

Anything is allowed, even barbaric editing.

The only thing the user will know is i like it or i dislike it.

So don't stop creativity (which is IMO in the storical low)

www.logicprofiles.com

The most comprehensive Logic Files resource and sharing Portal.

(just started!)

SHARE:

Logic Icons

Templates

Environments

Channel Strips

Settings (with audio demo!)

Online Collaborations

Download LOGICONIZER!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Originally posted by 2:

A band is no more a band when the final result sucks.

Anything is allowed, even barbaric editing.

The only thing the user will know is i like it or i dislike it.

So don't stop creativity (which is IMO in the storical low)

I couldn't agree more....at that point the real artist is the producer and he uses the band as a sample source :cool:

Guess the Amp

.... now it's finished...

Here it is!

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

one has to doo what the particular music is

calling for. It can not be judged on the base

of "should i use this or that available tool?"

to make a piece of music, also nowadays the

edit, effect or sound design can be the central

"theme" of a tune.

 

you may not use a vocoder on the new pastoral

release of Placido Domingo... but you never know in advance :D

-Peace, Love, and Potahhhhto
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Originally posted by TeleCarlos:

Not an answer here... but a different point of view; devil's advocate.

 

How about: Should a composer, arranger or a plain musicmaker be held back by the fact that maybe he doesn't "play" instruments well. Maybe what he can do is dream up masterpieces but can not play the actual instruments. Should he not attempt to "record" his music.

 

That was just a thought.

 

Known: Average musicians can make awesome music.

 

Technically awesome players have been known to create crap.

 

Beatles... need I say more?

 

Still, I agree that a lot of crap has been polished with our "tools". Still, not their fault. General public just seems to like mediocre, fast food type music so... if it sells, why not!

That's a good point. Some of the best writers are not great players (hello, self ;) ), and some of the best players are not great writers (hello Jeff Beck)

 

In the old days, people surrounded themselves with complementary talent - having heard Pete Townshend sing, can you imagine if he had never gotten together with Roger Daltrey?

 

Now, folks can DIY all kinds of things, but it's a different bag and can affect the expression of the music. Some styles are not conducive to the "digital assembly line" method.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Originally posted by Angelo Clematide:

you may not use a vocoder on the new pastoral

release of Placido Domingo... but you never know in advance :D

Only sane way to "use" the new pastoral release of Placido Domingo is at least with vocoder, but I'd suggest some freq. shifter and some heavy granular scrambling....when you get a funky rythmic pulse from it you are safe... :D

Guess the Amp

.... now it's finished...

Here it is!

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Let's toss it back 30 years.

 

You didn't have sequencers, but you DID have samplers (Mellotron, Optigan, etc.) No one complained that those samples weren't 'real' (except flutists, violinists, etc who believed they lost work because of them).

 

But the music never stops, unless you stop it. A composer/arranger/producer records with the musical tools at his disposal. In 1930 that was an orchestra. Today it's ProTools.

 

Playing live is a different deal. There, the music DOES stop if you ain't actually playing & singing. I have no desire to see a "live act" that is doing nothing more than lipsynching and prancing around.

I used to think I was Libertarian. Until I saw their platform; now I know I'm no more Libertarian than I am RepubliCrat or neoCON or Liberal or Socialist.

 

This ain't no track meet; this is football.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I totally agree with Coyote. Nothing matters except "do they kick butt live?" EVERYTHING that happens in the studio is artificial and make believe. Vocals and other parts are cut and recut, guitars are stacked to oblivion, yadda yadda. And that happened before any DAWs hit the scene. I'll take a little nudging and such in the machine, and/or the creation of "unnatural" sounds. If they can't play live, period? All bets are off.

Peace

If at first you don't succeed, keep on sucking 'til you do suck seed!
Link to comment
Share on other sites

For a moment I had an allucination of a gig of the future, where some musicians are requested to play each one an independent and absolutely improvised set, some of them or all of them absolutely crappy as a precise choice..closed in high insulation glass rooms, and a "performer director" straight in the middle with a huge set of reshaping, resynthesizing, retiming, retuning,remixing...re-everything tools that makes actually the music...live!

Guess the Amp

.... now it's finished...

Here it is!

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

There are some similar concerns/issues being kicked around in this thread on Phil's forum:

 

Vocal tracks on DAW - What is your process?

 

I've been getting more and more away from the DAW...and especially from that DAW slice-n-dice, "Pro Tooled" method of assembling music.

 

But...with so many people using nothing but the ITB approach...it's almost impossible for them to put away those tools...those "crutches"...

...and to just allow things to go down "as they fall".

And that is probably due to the fact that much of what is recorded these days...is sub-par to begin with...

..and so it needs a lot of "digital surgery" before it's propped up enough to appear as a "perfect" product.

 

Originally posted by Gus Lozada:

It depends on the vision of the artist/producer and it's a matter of principles/ethics.

That IS...what it's all about! :thu:

miroslav - miroslavmusic.com

 

"Just because it happened to you, it doesn't mean it's important."

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Originally posted by aliengroover:

...the creation of "unnatural" sounds

Peace

in this case i have to say, the only "non-unnatural" sound is the human voice, for everything else neanderthal people use tools, and don't forget the digithal people...

 

yodelihuuuuuoooo

-Peace, Love, and Potahhhhto
Link to comment
Share on other sites

quote:

Originally posted by 2:

A band is no more a band when the final result sucks.

Anything is allowed, even barbaric editing.

The only thing the user will know is i like it or i dislike it.

So don't stop creativity (which is IMO in the storical low)

 

 

I couldn't agree more....at that point the real artist is the producer and he uses the band as a sample source

 

--------------------

I just thought of Def Leppard after reading that! Which leads me...ever listen to Hysteria on head phones? It sounds like a puzzle. Little guitar parts coming out of nowhere, here and there and then the drums! What a disaster! Cymbal panned everywhere, hitting on every beat imaginable, sometimes not even on time! Then you listen to it on speakers and it sounds ok but god, stay away from the headphones. I was going to upload Hysteria on my iPod and then I asked myself, "Do I really want to listen to that?"

 

No I don`t.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Obviously, tools can be misused, but doesn't it depend on the situation, kind of music, artist, producer, and a bunch of other things?

 

That's why I wrote that it's a continuum.

 

To make a judgment on where "the line" is to me seems arbitrary. What constitutes integrity may differ between an African field recording and say, mash-ups or electronic music.

 

If there is anything even remotely resembling "the line", Bob Ohlsson probably has it right: "It happens when the quest for repairing what's wrong tramples over what's right."

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think there are 2 ways of looking at this.

 

Will the only "performance" be an MTV music video or "live" onstage.

 

If the act never plans on touring or performing live, polish it up as much as you can.

 

If it will be a "live" performance , either the performers must learn the "edited" versions or sequencers must be brought on stage. I'm noticing here locally that even bar bands playing only cover tunes are bringing laptops and sequencers on stage, so this is gaining more and more acceptance.

 

IS IT LIVE , OR IS IT MEMOREX?

 

Dan

 

http://musicinit.com/pvideos.html

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Actually I edit myself so I`m not against the tools! :D

 

I started this thread because I wanted to know where people draw the line.

 

A producer it seems to me today is more and more a builder of sounds where he/she was once a creative driving force. Yes, working with loops and samples can be creative, but there is a point in the editing process where the human element is no longer because it has been edited literally to death.

 

Mutt Langes production work sells but I do not feel it is very musical.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

"If there is anything even remotely resembling "the line", Bob Ohlsson probably has it right: "It happens when the quest for repairing what's wrong tramples over what's right.

 

yes, but Bob Ohlsson work in the department where the first restauration is made of the s--t we all produce, also called mastering

-Peace, Love, and Potahhhhto
Link to comment
Share on other sites

If there is anything even remotely resembling "the line", Bob Ohlsson probably has it right: "It happens when the quest for repairing what's wrong tramples over what's right."
Yes, thats a pretty good answer for me. So again not to pick on Mutt Lange, but when you have a drummer in band and do not use him for the bulk of your rhythm session, can we call that wrong now?

 

Or is the reality, being that it sells milions across the world, it is right?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

That is the relevant question. I, for one, feel cheated if I pay $$$ for a ticket to a live performance and don't get to hear musicians actually performing that music. I could spend $15 and play the CD on my stereo... if I'm going out of my way to catch a band's live performance, please make it LIVE! Warts'n'all.

 

Take the damn risk. THAT is what I'm paying you to do.

Originally posted by techristian:

If it will be a "live" performance , either the performers must learn the "edited" versions or sequencers must be brought on stage. I'm noticing here locally that even bar bands playing only cover tunes are bringing laptops and sequencers on stage, so this is gaining more and more acceptance.

 

IS IT LIVE , OR IS IT MEMOREX?

Dan

I used to think I was Libertarian. Until I saw their platform; now I know I'm no more Libertarian than I am RepubliCrat or neoCON or Liberal or Socialist.

 

This ain't no track meet; this is football.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...