Censorship on The Songwriters Forum.

[Anifa]

Originally posted by Kendrix:

Hey guys - you are feeding the beast.

Even Criag seems not to be heeding his own wise advice.

Just Ignore it and it will go away.

Thats the best medicine.

Hey Kendrix,

 

Johnny B's okay, just gets a little out there sometimes when he's trying to drive a point home. Give him some space and maybe some fresh toughts to preoccupy his mind; don't shut him out entirely. However, politics have their place here on the forums... I try to respect the fact that others may not want to hear political rants on the more laid back message boards here. If I want a sparring match; I jump on over to the Political forum... I've not had time to hang out here lately, much less go over and get involved in a political stand off. When I'm in the mood for politics; I know exactly where to go on these forums. When I'm "NOT" in the mood for politics; I know exactly where NOT to go on these forums. It's sort of like being forced to eat when you tell someone you're not hungry; force fed. When something is shoved down your throat, whether you like it or not, it makes you feel like regurgitating when you've had too much.

[Super 8]

Originally posted by Kendrix:

Hey guys - you are feeding the beast

Gosh, do ya think????

 

Johnny is this forums longest running troll.

 

Just glancing at either of those two threads on the Songwriter forum -let alone the countless other threads he's started, belaboring the same topics- one can easily tell he's simply out for attention.

 

I don't have anything against the guy personally. He doesn't go around flaming people. But his relentlessly hitting the same point over and over and over is borderline obsessive/compulsive! And if anyone challenges him on it (i.e. Nursers), he starts acting like a martyr and screaming 'third Reich'. How many threads and polls has he started over this issue with Nursers? Is it serving a purpose???

 

This isn't about writing song lyrics....gimme a break, those weren't lyrics! I doubt this is even about advancing a poltical agenda. This is about getting attention.....and that's what trolls are out for.

 

Put this guy on the demerit system, and ship his ass out if he can't play nice.

[offramp]

Originally posted by Super 8:

Put this guy on the demerit system, and ship his ass out if he can't play nice.

Can the demerit tally be retroactive?

[Anderton]

I agree that if you ignore people, they go away. But I felt it important to let it be known that I do not support censorship, hence I felt it necessary to explain that the issue here is not someone's politics, but their sense of protocol.

 

I've said my piece and feel no need to say anything else. I think pretty much everyone understands where I'm coming from.

[Programgirl]

Johnny, I think you're forgetting one very important thing - Cyberspace is not required to adhere to the constitution because it isn't the property of the USA. The owner of the hardware that runs this site can and will shut you down at their discretion, and it wouldn't be considered censorship, because you agreed to follow their rules when you signed up. It would only be censorship if you owned the servers yourself, and an outside party (aka government) came in and modified your content. I just felt the need to clear that up because this argument seems kind of pointless when you stop to consider that.

[The Studio Pet-Rock]

Johnny, the problem is quite simple; youre redundant. You need to break that cycle if you want to succeed in getting your point of view across without pissing people off.

 

Youre obviously very passionate in your beliefs. Your tenacity is admirable, but its become tiresome. Youre even lashing out at people who hold many of the same views as yourself. Fanatical arrogance is a great way to turn people off quick.

 

Seems like a lot of folks are either hardcore Right or devout Left these days. Both groups have adopted the "with us or against us" jargon, which leaves people like me wanting nothing to do with any of you. ARROGANCE, boy! None of you has any interest in my blue collar. We should all just stand in awe of your brilliant assessment of what is going on and heed your wisdom.

 

I refuse to eat asparagus, wear sandals & Buddy Holly glasses, drive a Geo Metro and indulge in long-winded conversations about poetry. I am liberal-leaning blue collar guy, and Im not interested in what youre selling. I work long hours and I have bills to pay.

 

You cant convert people. The best you can hope for is to plant small seeds of doubt in their heads. Subtly will get you a hell of a lot farther than "CommieMart, CommieMart, CommieMart, CommieMart, CommieMart!" I bet some people shop there even more now just to spite you.

[Angelo Clematide]

Johnny B is a genius in his own right. Please change your name to Saint Johhny B, the first Saint of cyberspace, and then move to Paris.

 

Best regards

 

+++ The Pope, the Pappette and the whole Papeterie +++

[ryst]

Originally posted by Johnny B:

You're wrong...whenever any form of banning or censorship has raised its ugly head..I stood against it...even when I did not agree with the views of the targeted person. That's my record. You can check it if you like.

Johnny B,

Face it..................

 

http://www.digitalend.com/pics/stallowned.gif

[Tedster]

Originally posted by Johnny B:

Well then prove you don't have right wing views and unlock my two little threads, then I'll have respect for you.

 

I think how most of us here on the board sleep at night has little to do with wondering who among us has or doesn't have respect for us. Speaking strictly for myself, of course.

[Brittanylips]

Johnny B:

 

I agree that it's censorship, but I agree with those that wish to censor you and this is why:

 

You are exploiting the songwriting forum for your own purposes. I just checked out your posts and you're not really engaged in writing a song. What you're doing has nothing to do with songwriting. You're exploiting the forum to put a microphone in front of your political views.

 

If you were really interested in writing protest songs, you would not post the things you post. You don't post anything about actually putting together a real live song. You are using songwriting simply as a pretext to express anti-bush sentiments.

 

If you are genuinely interested in writing protest songs, why not do it? You have more than enough anti-bush sentiments of your own so you don't need to ask anyone for help on that front. Put some down on a piece of paper, then write some appropriate music. Record and post the finished song, and then I'm sure people would be happy to listen to and discuss the actual song.

 

But if you're not really interested in writing an actual song, and are only interested in hijacking the forum to express your political views, then what do you expect?

 

It's not as if people neccessarilly disagree with your views, but they are not there to discuss politics. They're there to discuss music, and you can understand why a moderator would shut down threads that attempt to change a musical forum into a political one.

 

-Peace, Love, and Brittanylips

[ryst]

Complaining is good for you as long as you're not complaining to the person you're complaining about.

Lynn Johnston (1947 - ), For Better or For Worse, 11-06-03

[Mr.WOW]

Johnny,

 

Do you work for MoveOn.org?

 

...or any other 527 group?

[Wewus432]

posted by Brittany:

Johnny B:

 

I agree that it's censorship

Uh no it's not. If Johnny owned his own website and was talking all his bullshit, and the government or some outside force came and shut him down, that would be censorship.

 

The owners of this website, or any website, have the right to delete anything they want to, or ban anyone they want to.

 

It's their property. You're saying you could come onto my property, and take a dump, and if I kicked you off, that would be censorship. No...it's not.

 

If JohnnyB wants to setup his own website, and rant and rave, and act like an idiot asshole, he's perfectly within his rights to do that. I doubt if he'd have many hits on that website, or participants in a forum of his own creation.

 

The owners of ANY website, have the express, written consent, oar something, to control the content thereof.

[Brittanylips]

Originally posted by TheWewus:

posted by Brittany:

I agree that it's censorship

Uh no it's not. If Johnny owned his own website and was talking all his bullshit, and the government or some outside force came and shut him down, that would be censorship.

 

The owners of this website, or any website, have the right to delete anything they want to, or ban anyone they want to.

 

It's their property. You're saying you could come onto my property, and take a dump, and if I kicked you off, that would be censorship. No...it's not.

 

If JohnnyB wants to setup his own website, and rant and rave, and act like an idiot asshole, he's perfectly within his rights to do that. I doubt if he'd have many hits on that website, or participants in a forum of his own creation.

 

The owners of ANY website, have the express, written consent, oar something, to control the content thereof.

Well, this is kinda OT, but to clarify:

 

* you're right that the owners of a website have a right to control its content;

 

* you're wrong to suggest that protecting your property from trespassers is akin to controlling the content of a website from non-trespassers;

 

* you're wrong to believe that censorship is the sole province of government (you are not alone in this mistake). I'm not a fan of quoting web definitions as a way to clear up disagreement, but if you're genuinely interested, feel free to google them yourself;

 

* you are wrong to believe that censorship is neccessarilly bad. There are instances where the government -- or websites -- censure for good reason;

 

* You are right to believe that, after re-reading my post above, we are saying the same thing, but saying it in different ways.

 

-Peace, Love, and Brittanylips

[Wewus432]

You're wrong to post your disagreements in such a hard to understand format.

* you're wrong to believe that censorship is the sole province of government (you are not alone in this mistake). I'm not a fan of quoting web definitions as a way to clear up disagreement, but if you're genuinely interested, feel free to google them yourself;

Uh I said government or some outside force.

* you're wrong to suggest that protecting your property from trespassers is akin to controlling the content of a website from non-trespassers

Please clarify

 

* you are wrong to believe that censorship is neccessarilly bad. There are instances where the government -- or websites -- censure for good reason;

Doh, where did I say that?

 

If loving you is wrong, I don't wanta be right.

[boosh]

I'm a Bush lover!

[Wewus432]

You would be.

[Brittanylips]

Blips ------> * you're wrong to suggest that protecting your property from trespassers is akin to controlling the content of a website from non-trespassers

 

Wewus -------> Please clarify

To clarify why suggesting that protecting your property from trespassers is not akin to controlling the content of a website from non-trespassers, Ill go back to your example above.

 

You say: " You're saying you could come onto my property, and take a dump, and if I kicked you off, that would be censorship. No...it's not."

 

If I came onto your property and took a dump and you kicked me off, that would not be censorship because I am trespassing. You have not invited people to come and take dumps on your property, and so theres no open gate to do so. And if I therefore take a dump and you kick me off, you are not distinguishing between me and other people who may take dumps. You are not saying that my dump is any less welcome than anyone elses dump. You are simply protecting your property from anyone who might enter it and pinch loaf.

 

However, if your lawn was an organization set up for people to come and take dumps onto, and I came onto your lawn and took a dump, and you kicked me off, that would be censorship. My dump is a form of expression, and you would be allowing other such forms, but not mine. Perhaps my dump smelled different from other peoples dumps, or was more liquidy, solid, or steamy. Perhaps you just didn't like the taste of it. In any case, it wouldnt matter. Its your lawn, and you are free to censor any dump you like.

 

In this case, the SSS is a kind of lawn set up for people to come and take dumps onto. Johnny B is not a trespasser, but a participant. However, the SSS is free to control, suppress, or eliminate any dump they dont like. The U.S. Government draws the line at yelling fire in a packed theater. The SSS draws the line at turning musical threads into political ones.

Blips ------>* you are wrong to believe that censorship is neccessarilly bad. There are instances where the government -- or websites -- censure for good reason;

 

Wewus ------->Doh, where did I say that?

It sounded to me that by implying that what the SSS did was within their right, but wasnt censorship, that you were suggesting censorship was something more weighty and sinister. What I am saying is that what the SSS did was within their right and is censorship, which is not always so weighty and sinister.

Originally posted by TheWewus:

If loving you is wrong, I don't wanta be right.

Loving you

Is easy because you're beautiful....

Making love with you

Is all I want to do....

Loving you

Is more than just a dream come true....

And everything that I do

Is out of loving you....

 

la la la la la

la la la la la

la la la la la

la la la la la

 

 

-Peace, Love, and Brittanylips

[Geoff Grace]

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[the stranger]

Originally posted by Brittanylips:

If I came onto your property and took a dump and you kicked me off, that would not be censorship because I am trespassing. You have not invited people to come and take dumps on your property, and so theres no open gate to do so. And if I therefore take a dump and you kick me off, you are not distinguishing between me and other people who may take dumps. You are not saying that my dump is any less welcome than anyone elses dump. You are simply protecting your property from anyone who might enter it and pinch loaf.

 

However, if your lawn was an organization set up for people to come and take dumps onto, and I came onto your lawn and took a dump, and you kicked me off, that would be censorship. My dump is a form of expression, and you would be allowing other such forms, but not mine. Perhaps my dump smelled different from other peoples dumps, or was more liquidy, solid, or steamy. Perhaps you just didn't like the taste of it. In any case, it wouldnt matter. Its your lawn, and you are free to censor any dump you like.

 

In this case, the SSS is a kind of lawn set up for people to come and take dumps onto. Johnny B is not a trespasser, but a participant. However, the SSS is free to control, suppress, or eliminate any dump they dont like.

LOL!

[I I mjrn]

As one who agrees w/ JB's distaste for WalMart (& even feels more stringly than he---cheap's one thing but I don't like their policies toward workers or their financial support of what's probably slave labor in other countries), I can tell you---or you can inform yourself---that his threads didn't offend "right wingers", etc., but bugged even those who agreed with his stance.

That's seen easily by reading the threads in question.

But as one who thinks he's neither a writer (the evidence on that forum dispoves that claim) or possibly even a musician, I, too, suggest that this is a selfish waste.

JB just doesn't know how to get along with others, even those like me who would help advance the goals he says he has.

That's the rill dill: JB's so megamaniacal that he thinks no one else has had the ideas he just read about. He doesn't seem to think that anyone else can offer a valid observation if it disagrees in the slightest with his. It looks for all the world to me that he doesn't think anyone but he has any rights.

His pretense at collaborating was regularly disproved when he ignored all attempts to participate by others & his pretense of being a writer/composer by the fact that his "creations" never progressed or even had any apparent purpose other than to billboard his opinions.

 

The question isn't even whether the forum has the right to limit what's posted (they do of course) but whether anyone has the right to just blather on endlessly about anything & claim that's a right of free speech.

Does a parrot (or one simply repeating words til they've lost meaning) have free speech fights?

Does a dog howling at the moon (best metaphor for a "luna tick") ?

How can one with so little to say, but who plastered his opinions allover this place now pretend that the community-called-for effort to get him to just quit blabbing about a topic that's been beat to death---& moreover has been offered reposting possibilties in both the SSS POl Forum & Nurser's own Collaboration Corner---how can he claim censorship?

I find it revealing that JB is strangely reluctant to take his ditties to the Collaboration forum; odd for one desiring to collaborate on a project...to me it supports the idea that he has no plans to allow anyone else to participate in their creation & no idea on what/how to actually put these things to use in the real world.

 

At what point do we crossover from free speech to cheap talk? How does that line affect those who don't want to see their words cheapened by becoming so overexposed as to be like white noise that is ignored?

There's been no censorship here....although I suspect that JB will draw this out to the point that sometime Nursers will have to edit out all this detrious (JB having the habit of reposting to keep his own threads propped up when others don't respond).

 

Again there's been no censorship there & I expect that unless deliberately provoked there never will be. JB's threads were locked, I suspect, not for what he said but because he demonstrated that he was a total faketeer.

[Philip OKeefe]

If you are genuinely interested in writing protest songs, why not do it? You have more than enough anti-bush sentiments of your own so you don't need to ask anyone for help on that front. Put some down on a piece of paper, then write some appropriate music. Record and post the finished song, and then I'm sure people would be happy to listen to and discuss the actual song.

 

But if you're not really interested in writing an actual song, and are only interested in hijacking the forum to express your political views, then what do you expect?

 

It's not as if people neccessarilly disagree with your views, but they are not there to discuss politics. They're there to discuss music, and you can understand why a moderator would shut down threads that attempt to change a musical forum into a political one.

 

 

As a "old school conservative" (please don't call me a "NeoCon" - I'm not), I would be someone who some people might think wouldn't support JohnnyB's right to write a protest song. The problem is that this didn't strike most of us as a true "protest song", but rather, as BL said, an effort to hijack a forum to express his political views... in an annoying and extremely repetitive manner. Had Johnny simply expressed his desire to write said song, and started by posting his initial lyrical ideas and then bumped the thread or asked for additional ideas or collaborators instead of repeatedly posting the same things over and over, he would have found no greater supporter of his right to do so than he would have found in me.

 

Youre obviously very passionate in your beliefs. Your tenacity is admirable, but its become tiresome. Youre even lashing out at people who hold many of the same views as yourself. Fanatical arrogance is a great way to turn people off quick.

 

Very well said!

 

The fact that Johnny repeatedly posted the same things, over and over, and resisted moderator instructions to follow the forum rules and keep the political commentary to the Poli Forum, and then cross-posted to other forums to whine about his threads being locked down when he failed to do so made it obvious to me that his intent was to circumvent the rules and make a political statement in an inappropriate place, rather than being sincere in his desire to write a politically oriented song and sincerely seeking assistance with that.

 

Had a conservative poster done the same sorts of things, I would have been equally perturbed. This is NOT about politics, but rather, about being willing to follow the "rules of the house" where you happen to be present as a guest.

 

Well then prove you don't have right wing views and unlock my two little threads, then I'll have respect for you.

 

The funny thing is, the person who locked down your thread probably has more in common with your political views than you might think... but again, it's NOT about the political views of the moderator... it's about YOUR lack of respect for the authority of the moderator and willingness to show respect for the forums and your fellow forum members by being willing to adhere to a few simple rules. If anyone is showing a lack of respect, it is you Johnny. I'd have more respect for YOU if you would follow the rules and keep your political commentary to the appropriate forum, rather than trying to use a thinly veiled excuse to post political commentary on a inappropriate forum, and then resist the moderator's efforts to rein you in.

 

I support your right to write a political protest song. I ENCOURAGE you to do so. Again Johnny, it's not the politics. And if you think I'm just a conservative who is giving lip service to that, ask Songryter about my willingness to record HIS political songs - some of which are at odds with some of my own political viewpoints.

 

the SSS is a kind of lawn set up for people to come and take dumps onto. However, the SSS is free to control, suppress, or eliminate any dump they dont like.

 

Any bets on how long it takes until that shows up in someone's sig line?

[I I mjrn]

Originally posted by TONY WOW:

Johnny,

 

Do you work for MoveOn.org?

 

...or any other 527 group?

Anyone checking the dates on JB's "CommieMart" "jingle" may note that he's been "working" on that for over 3 months...clearly he's had no experience with meeting deadlines & in all probability can be of no real use---until he gets a bit of maturity---to MoveOn or anyone.

[I I mjrn]

Originally posted by Johnny B:

Also, since I was looking for real help on those two threads to complete my two projects, I'd appreciate some real help with the lyrics and not just people adding crap like always taking personal pot shots at me. They engage me, I fight back. It's my nature. And that delayed completion....

In fact, almost daily we see another news items showing that Corrupt Congressman Tom DeLay is dodging yet another scandal. Thus, the Ballad of Corrupt Congressman Tom DeLay could end up being a very long with quite a few verses. As you must know, the Ballad Form is often quite long anyway.[* especially if you just repeat the same lines...]

 

C'mon, unlock them. And maybe people will actually chime in with helpful things so I can get these two projects done.

JB had plenty of genuine help offered & still (well, maybe ..) has an offer to take those pretend projects to the Collaboration Corner or anywhere else.

As noted, though, he's not for real.

[Anderton]

Hey, I stand corrected...I looked in the dictionary, and I AM a censor because in the most general definition, I am "any person who supervises the morality or manners of others."

 

I've mentioned "protocol" several times here, which is equivalent to manners. So censorship does not necessarily have to refer to content involving morals or politics, it can be manners as well.

 

And that's pretty much all that I censor. If I was committed to censoring political thought, the political forum would have, oh, two or three posts.

[Wewus432]

It'a bizarre to me that anyone would think trying to shut JohnnyB up is censorship. I tried to shut him up not too long after he started posting here, and a lot of people, said "oh no" that wouldn't be right, and they're still saying that.

 

Just ban the guy, and be done with it.

[Flemtone]

Originally posted by Brittanylips:

la la la la la

la la la la la

la la la la la

la la la la la

I'm sorry, 'lips...

 

I must insist that you censor one 'la' from the last line of this quote, or add one more and complete the phrase with:

 

"Doo'n doo'n tee doo

Aaa-aaa-aaa-aaa-aaa-aaaaaaaa"

(as a 6-note descending major in a frequency that only dogs can hear).

 

Thanks for your kind attention to this matter.

 

Carry on.

 

 

-Tim from the Land of Nod

[Philip OKeefe]

Tim, I was tempted to make that correction too, but I didn't want to censor BL's artistic freedom and his ability to take a little creative license with it.

[nursers]

Originally posted by Philip O'Keefe:

Tim, I was tempted to make that correction too, but I didn't want to censor BL's artistic freedom and his ability to take a little creative license with it.

[Geoff Grace]

While we're on the subject of "corrections," Phil, I think you transcend labels and clearly think for yourself.

 

But if you want to call yourself an "old school conservative," I offer the suggestion that you might want to at least define how old your school is (although I'm confident that those of us who know you already have a good idea). After all, there's a pretty big difference between an older anti-suffrage, anti-civil rights conservative and a fairly old, but more recent, Eisenhower/Goldwater/Rockefeller-style Republican.

 

Best,

 

Geoff