not Cereal Posted March 30, 2005 Share Posted March 30, 2005 when i record to analog tape the signal is noticably altered when i play it back regardless of settings. whether or not i like this aleration is irrelevant; it is an alteration of the original signal. reasonably priced digital medium does not drastically alter the signal if in working order. just because a person enjoys analog does not make it better. i enjoy my 36 year old truck. i prefer it over anything else. does that make it better than anything else? any idiot can conclude the answer is no. just because i like it better does not make it better. i find that nothing more than the tune itself dictates whether or not it should be analog or digital. one of the artists i am working with now we have been doing both. some tunes require the properties of analog tape. others require the properties of digital. the problem is how to make these tunes cohesive in the album stage; i dont have this answer yet - they sure do sound different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angelo Clematide Posted March 30, 2005 Share Posted March 30, 2005 CRAIG!!! you are a techno legend, Craig, you just know it yet!!!! tube and analog is nothing more then a effect for me nowadays, like reverb, EQ or a 78 RPM plug-in. i'm more into this high tech crap like virtual wah-wah pedals i can automate to far out rhythms, LoungeLizard EP, Virtual Guitar Amps where i play blow heads off riff on the keyboard... aren't the keyboarders anyway the better guitarists? or scientific stuff like GRM classics, to send the dancefloor into nirvana. It's primitive, i know, but i like it, and it's also Bruce approved now, the primitive i mean... you remember what you can do with a synclavier, the effects no one has programed as plug-ins yet. - -Peace, Love, and Potahhhhto Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angelo Clematide Posted March 30, 2005 Share Posted March 30, 2005 Bbach a loo bach a wam bam boom----->"is it supposed to be the goal of a digital recording to sound like an analog recording?" NO, never thought of it that way, it's the next technology in line. I also like steam machines a lot, but don't drive with them to Italy. - not cereal---->"whether or not i like this aleration is irrelevant; it is an alteration of the original signal" i feel any recording process as altering, no it's heavy altering. I deeply love acoustic instruments and set them above all electronics, i can play for hours and forget myself. i don't even like to talk about digital and analogue, i just do it because i like it here. i go sleep, it's 03:20 AM here - salve -Peace, Love, and Potahhhhto Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miroslav Posted March 30, 2005 Share Posted March 30, 2005 for serious music "classical", the digital medium is the superior choice.I dont know what this means? Music is music, and in most cases it is made with serious intentbe it Pop, Country, R&B.or Classical and a lot of styles can have a very wide dynamic range. In broadcast, analogue is not existent, neither in the audio nor in the picture.Isnt this mostly for editing reasons and ease of transfer? The stage where the consumer destroys the quality of digital, is the cheap CD player and the crap stereo he has.Not everyone can go to the great lengths and expenses that you doJUSTto make digital sound good. miroslav - miroslavmusic.com "Just because it happened to you, it doesn't mean it's important." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheSoundman Posted March 30, 2005 Share Posted March 30, 2005 I'd like to see a poll about how many people in this room still own an operational turntable. I don't, although I was one of the last people I know to give mine up. Professional recording techniques will always be another issue. But I don't see anybody going back to a what is called a pure analog format any time soon. Really good analog recording was pretty good, but it took a team of engineers and technicians just to keep the gear working properly. You can record well digitally with minimal intervention. Neither recording format is perfect, but neither is life. Or music. Let's screw it up now, and worry about it later. Network51: Pirate Radio Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anderton Posted March 30, 2005 Share Posted March 30, 2005 < The goal of digital recording is to capture a really great musical performance. Ditto analog recording. If the performance is great, the medium is irrelevant. Craig Anderton Educational site: http://www.craiganderton.org Music: http://www.youtube.com/thecraiganderton Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/craig_anderton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philip OKeefe Posted March 30, 2005 Share Posted March 30, 2005 I for one think anyone who wants to be a producer or engineer should start with a four track cassette machine and create many a mix of songs and then move up to eight track. Only then should you be allowed to go to a DAW. IMO, there's a lot to be said for that idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angelo Clematide Posted March 30, 2005 Share Posted March 30, 2005 Miroslav---- Music is music, and in most cases it is made with serious intentbe it Pop, Country, R&B or Classicaland a lot of styles can have a very wide dynamic range. Angelo----->Serious = generic term, we call "classical" music serious or earnest music, has nothing to do with the seriousness of the indent. I don't know if you categorise like that over the pond. How do you call a symphony of Gustav Mahler in the US? - just music? I call it Romantic. European earnest styles: - (0500-1450) Medieval - (1451-1600) Renaissance - (1601-1750) Baroque - (1751-1820) Classic - (1821-1900) Romantic - (1901-1950) early 20th century - (1951-2000) late 20th Century i don't call Baroque and Renaissance serious, it's just to much fun, live and amusement in it Popular Music - folklore - country - funk - soul - R&B etc. Jazz - be-bop - swing etc. Classical Music of India - north indian music, dhrupad etc. - south indian music Chinese Music - Wen qu etc. African Music - div. pre-electric South African music styles - master drumming etc. Arab Music - arab classical music - div. north african styles - -Peace, Love, and Potahhhhto Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angelo Clematide Posted March 30, 2005 Share Posted March 30, 2005 Angelo---->In broadcast, analogue is not existent, neither in the audio nor in the picture. Miroslav---->Isnt this mostly for editing reasons and ease of transfer? Thats one view how you can look at it, but it is as simple as I said, analog dissapeared years ago, no one would think about using tube camera today. Some video artist may do that for the purpose of this picture quality. - Angelo---->The stage where the consumer destroys the quality of digital, is the cheap CD player and the crap stereo he has. miroslav---->not everyone can go to the great lengths and expenses that you doJUSTto make digital sound good. Yes, but i made a statement in the earlier text, that it is not as bad as many like to hear it. We had a lot of technical related problem to set up the orchestral recording, and to keep it up to the latest digital standard. One of the latest problems where the Atmos Multichannel recording systems from SPL, who just not fulfilled the specs propagated by the company. -Peace, Love, and Potahhhhto Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Sayers Posted March 30, 2005 Share Posted March 30, 2005 OK so take your 24 track analogue recording, 30 ips, and do a fully automated mix. Now roll the tape back and wipe all the tracks except the timecode. Now play that back with all your comp, EQ, FX. What you hear is what's missing in digital, perpetual Noise. cheers john Studio Design Forum Studios Under Construction Home Page Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angelo Clematide Posted March 30, 2005 Share Posted March 30, 2005 Anderton:---->The goal of digital recording is to capture a really great musical performance. Ditto analog recording. If the performance is great, the medium is irrelevant . That's how it is!!! -Peace, Love, and Potahhhhto Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angelo Clematide Posted March 30, 2005 Share Posted March 30, 2005 John Sayers----->What you hear is what's missing in digital, perpetual Noise we should sell perpetual noise, could be a a business. Can you deliver diff. type of this noise for distribution to floating producers? Can you make a proposal and little concept? Or do you know someone who can program a plug, where on the base of the sum of all tracks add perpetual noise in the style of Cadac, Harrison, Neve, Studer 24-track electronics etc. - -Peace, Love, and Potahhhhto Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Sayers Posted March 30, 2005 Share Posted March 30, 2005 I could get out the Scully and give them 60's noise. cheers john Studio Design Forum Studios Under Construction Home Page Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angelo Clematide Posted March 30, 2005 Share Posted March 30, 2005 John, your'e a genius, will come to down under soon -Peace, Love, and Potahhhhto Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Sayers Posted March 30, 2005 Share Posted March 30, 2005 I'd welcome that mate cheers john Studio Design Forum Studios Under Construction Home Page Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miroslav Posted March 30, 2005 Share Posted March 30, 2005 Look...you guys can point out a lot of "bad" things about analog/analog tape... ...and from the other side, a lot of "bad" things can be pointed out about digital. Now put all that aside...and you still hear it way too often from top engineers/producers/artists how they tried both the digital and analog tape approach on a particular session... ...and most will say how "blown away" they were by the sound coming off the tapeVS. the digital version. Now...that alone may not prove that one is better or worse than the other... ...and if you just line up the spec sheets, that too may not prove that one is better or worse than the other. But...JUST...from a listening experience, without the math or the science...it sure seems that analog/analog tape has had more people "drooling" than digital ever has. OK...I also use digital...and there are things I can do with a DAW that were never even considered in the all-analog days... ...so sure, digital has it's positive uses. But...it still doesn't make you "wet your pants" as often as high-end analog tape does... ...and THAT is most often the case for people who have ONLY lived with digital, and then one day someone turns them on to high-end analog...and their ears and eyes pop out! And THAT is what this discussion is really aboutIMO...not the minutia miroslav - miroslavmusic.com "Just because it happened to you, it doesn't mean it's important." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Sayers Posted March 30, 2005 Share Posted March 30, 2005 sure - I've worked on the Neves at 301, the SSL's at Rhino the Harrison at Paradise and AAV plus the MCI's of Trafalgar and Music Farm, sure these are all aussie studios but it's the same gear you "wet your pants" about. making commerical sound in 2005 is not about drouling over 1970 Chevey engines. cheers john Studio Design Forum Studios Under Construction Home Page Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miroslav Posted March 30, 2005 Share Posted March 30, 2005 Originally posted by John Sayers: making commerical sound in 2005 is not about drouling over 1970 Chevey engines.No...the "drooling" isn't over the "engine"... ...but rather over what it can do. Is digital more accessible and a more "realistic" solution for the majority of 2005 commercial work...sure is. But...more people still "drool" over the sound of high-end analog than they do over the sound of digital. Though of course, you can say that's not important in 2005...if you wish. I'm not just being nostalgic...and if I had all the money that is currently invested in my studio, back in my hands... ...I would first configure a not too large, but pure-analog/analog tape setup...and then, maybe toss in a token DAWjust to have. That may not be an option for the majority...but I'm not worried about 24/7 commercial, high-speed production. So I would have the luxury of enjoying a bit of "drool". As it is...I wasted some time and money over the last several years trying to decide which way to go. And at one point, I too was thinking that an all-digital setup would be the simplest/cheapest. Of course, lately I have been going more and more "back to analog"...and finances permitting, I may go back even further to a mostly all-analog setup and SOP. But again, that is probably NOT going to be a feasible option for many...so, they will make-do with their all-in-the-box digital rigs... and some will even afford the real high end digital systems, in which case they may never feel the need top drool over a 1970 Chevy... though I do know that even the "Lexus" crowd still turns their heads every time one of those classics goes by...and yeah, I'm sure their lips do get a little wet. miroslav - miroslavmusic.com "Just because it happened to you, it doesn't mean it's important." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angelo Clematide Posted March 30, 2005 Share Posted March 30, 2005 miroslav, don't take it to serious, i like to laugh a lot, and talk about any recording technology from the past in a historical context. I do not rely much on what others say, i have to make my own decisions. I also don't give a damn what the pope says, even if there are millions of people who lipsync every word of him. I can't refuse the fact that analog is the old, fading away format, and pretty soon it will be gone completly. That's just the way history works. Even since i produce music for 35 years, i'm a kid of the digital age. No way around for me! Analog is not practical nowadays, it would cost me more, resp. i would lose money. We have this year 1500 releases, and i'm not willing to write on the sleeve "genuine analogue recording" when it is produce in 2005, and the consumer hold a 24-bit DVD or a 16-bit CD in his hand. Craig said it, what really counts at the end: If the performance is great, the medium is irrelevant. this is a statement of a genius! ...for me especially, i'm a fan of early recording devices. I have single example of shellac 78 RPM who have more spirit and "pant-flooding" information stored, then all analog and digital productions togheter. -Peace, Love, and Potahhhhto Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miroslav Posted March 30, 2005 Share Posted March 30, 2005 Originally posted by Angelo Clematide: I can't refuse the fact that analog is the old, fading away format, and pretty soon it will be gone completly. That's just the way history works. This is the part that I disagree with...though I'm not sure what "pretty soon" means to you in terms of years. Sure...it will never go back to an anlog world for the majority. But look at what happened a few months ago when Quantegy almost went out of business. All of a sudden there were hundreds...thoushands...of tape users "coming out of the woodwork" to scream their displeasure. And now...we will have not just Quantegy back again...but the EMTEC formulations will soon be shipping again...AND...a new tape manufacturer is also coming on-line. So...I don't see that tape will go away pretty soon... ...and as far as analog processing...HA!!!... ...that will be around for much, much longer still. And...as much as you like digital...and so do many others... ...you just kinda' have to stop and wonder why analog/analog tape is still alive and well. If you want to look at it as just an "effect" rather than a total process...fine. But it's quite a pleasing effect that digital just can't match....and THAT is the essence of this thread, IMO. Oh...I don't take this debate too seriously...and I also happen to like a lot of what digital can do... ...that's why I'm straddling both technologies at the moment. miroslav - miroslavmusic.com "Just because it happened to you, it doesn't mean it's important." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LIMiT Posted March 30, 2005 Share Posted March 30, 2005 Hello all... I'd like to mention that I've yeilded amazingly warm sounds in my recordings by tracking the rhythm section to tape,..then bringing those tracks back into my DAW for editing. (Occasionally I'll record distorted guitar to tape to get a cool saturated distortion as well). So,..I guess for me there is a balance, as both are valued tools. Of coarse,..as stated earlier...EVERYTHING starts with performance. Cheers, -LIMiT "..it will test your head,..and your mind,...and your brain too..." Dewey Finn- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StoneinaPond Posted March 30, 2005 Share Posted March 30, 2005 Originally posted by Angelo Clematide: John Sayers----->What you hear is what's missing in digital, perpetual Noise we should sell perpetual noise, could be a a business. Can you deliver diff. type of this noise for distribution to floating producers? Can you make a proposal and little concept? Or do you know someone who can program a plug, where on the base of the sum of all tracks add perpetual noise in the style of Cadac, Harrison, Neve, Studer 24-track electronics etc. - Already here . Listen to music through speakers? Is that an analog or digital device? Use a microphone? Analog or digital device? Use a preamp? Analog or digital device? Use any kind of mixing/summing outside the computer? Analog or digital? Analog is not dead. It is very much alive. Just part of it has been eclipsed. And please, if you wish to reply to this post, can you drop the arrow things and learn how to create proper quotes. Don't know where you learnt that very annoying habit, but it certainly makes your posts very difficult to decipher. Thanks. Yorik Stone In A Pond "Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angelo Clematide Posted March 30, 2005 Share Posted March 30, 2005 Originally posted by StoneinaPond: Listen to music through speakers? Is that an analog or digital device? Use a microphone? Analog or digital device? Use a preamp? Analog or digital device? Use any kind of mixing/summing outside the computer? Analog or digital? i like that quiz... Listen to music through speakers? Electro-mechanical or Electro-mechano-acoustical here. Use a microphone? electro-mechanical transducer here. Use a preamp? transistor technology here. Use any kind of mixing/summing outside the computer? digital here. - -Peace, Love, and Potahhhhto Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sign Posted March 30, 2005 Share Posted March 30, 2005 A while ago there was a metal band that was going to record a new CD and they hired a producer who happens to be a drummer and a DAW user/studio owner. This producer plays in another metal band that recorded a CD at my place with their former drummer. The drumsound made this producer decide to record the drums for the CD at my place on two inch tape. And so happened, the guys worked for two days and the young drummer is absolutely great, the sound is awesome due to this great drummer. Then came the moment of truth, the producer came with his DAW, based on a Mac with Logic software and he transferred the 12 drumtracks to his DAW. When this was done we compared the sound of the DAW to the sound of the two inch machine. I'll not forget that look on his face, a big disappointment it was for sure. I've kept the tapes for him so long. The alchemy of the masters moving molecules of air, we capture by moving particles of iron, so that the poetry of the ancients will echo into the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StoneinaPond Posted March 30, 2005 Share Posted March 30, 2005 Originally posted by Angelo Clematide: ...i like that quiz... Listen to music through speakers? Electro-mechanical or Electro-mechano-acoustical here. Use a microphone? electro-mechanical transducer here. Use a preamp? transistor technology here. Use any kind of mixing/summing outside the computer? digital here. - Glad you enjoyed the quiz. And thank you for using quotes. Yorik Stone In A Pond "Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angelo Clematide Posted March 30, 2005 Share Posted March 30, 2005 Originally posted by miroslav: This is the part that I disagree with...though I'm not sure what "pretty soon" means to you in terms of years. "soon" mean here "past" resp. "digital since": Audio since: Sony F1 (1982), Studer DASH, and 24-bit with WaveFrame (1994). Picture since: Digi-Beta SD, DV etc.. Today HDTV. this was my last post about analogue and digital, i'm falling asleep ...can we turn to steam machines or windmills, constructed in good old wood... or a may go to the polit forum for a minute, and knock verbally some nazis for my fun. http://static.howstuffworks.com/gif/analog-digital-ch.jpg - -Peace, Love, and Potahhhhto Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miroslav Posted March 30, 2005 Share Posted March 30, 2005 Originally posted by StoneinaPond: And please, if you wish to reply to this post, can you drop the arrow things and learn how to create proper quotes. Don't know where you learned that very annoying habit, but it certainly makes your posts very difficult to decipher.Seems a few people have picked up on it from Bruce Sweiden...that's his way of quoting. And I agree...it does make it hard to find which is the quote and which is the response. miroslav - miroslavmusic.com "Just because it happened to you, it doesn't mean it's important." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angelo Clematide Posted March 30, 2005 Share Posted March 30, 2005 yes that's right, i agreed with Bruce to adopt his style for the fun of it. So i turn back to the official style and leave that to Bruce, or he may charges me soon with copyright fees. -Peace, Love, and Potahhhhto Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miroslav Posted March 30, 2005 Share Posted March 30, 2005 Originally posted by Angelo Clematide: ...can we turn to steam machines or windmills, constructed in good old wood... or a may go to the polit forum for a minute, and knock verbally some nazis for my fun.It's really NOT about being nostalgic for the "good old days"... It's just a fact that analog/analog tape is still a VERY useable format...AND...it is still prized for it's beautiful sound. If you wanna' just go on and on about all the things that are wrong with tape...and how it's too expensive to maintain a high-end all-analog studio...and how these days digital is used by more people and that analog will never come back to take over... ...that's fine. But that still doesn't explain away the fact that a LOT of people just prefer the sound of analog/analog tape over the best that digital has to offer. miroslav - miroslavmusic.com "Just because it happened to you, it doesn't mean it's important." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Flier Posted March 30, 2005 Share Posted March 30, 2005 Originally posted by Angelo Clematide: Craig said it, what really counts at the end: If the performance is great, the medium is irrelevant. Yeah people say this a lot, but I disagree. When I hear great performances I want to hear them recorded the best they can be, so we get the full impact of the performance when we hear the result. Sure I'd rather listen to a crappy recording of a great performance than a great recording of a mediocre performance, but I've also heard too many great performances ruined by mediocre recording or production. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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