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Odd/Even Harmonics


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Well...wouldn't you instinctively always want to remove anything that was "odd"... :p Oh...the harmonics...the even harmonics are the "sought after" audio magic dust...the odd stuff, well...it's odd... ;) Even would be equal multiples or divisions...like 2,4,8,16... Odd is...odd...like 2,3.5,8,9...BLAH!!! NASTY!!! makes the hair on your neck stand right up... Tubes and tape saturation give you the even variety...I guess that is why everyone is sticking a tube into everything these days...

miroslav - miroslavmusic.com

 

"Just because it happened to you, it doesn't mean it's important."

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LOL miro :) Odd harmonics are evil. A music instrument adds even harmonics to a tone, 440-880-1760 etc. Odd harmonics are 'unnatural' and we don't like the sound of it because we are not used to hear them when listening to real instruments. Tubes also add even harmonics and tubes do a lot more than that :D Silicium crap like transistors add odd harmonics to a sound :) So you have a program that removes odd harmonics and this program works with transistors :D Hope you like it!
The alchemy of the masters moving molecules of air, we capture by moving particles of iron, so that the poetry of the ancients will echo into the future.
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Em7add11 (nice moniker), > I have a program that removes odd harmonics, what are they? Why would you remove them? < Both of the responses you got are flat-out wrong, so I'll try to clean up the mess. :) (Sorry guys) All musical instruments create tones having both even and odd harmonics. This is what makes an instrument sound interesting and distinguishes a clarinet from a violin. Some instruments have more even harmonics than odd, and vice versa. A clarinet tends to favor odd harmonics, and a flute has mostly second harmonic (which is even), but these vary depending on how hard the person is blowing at any given instant. The harder you blow a woodwind instrument, the more harmonics you get in general. Another factor in these instruments' tone color is wind and breath noise, which is not harmonically related to the note at all. When an electronic circuit or device (or software emulation) distorts it create both even and odd harmonics. Both types of harmonics are related to the fundamental musical note, and so will be "musical." The real problem with tape, tubes, and their emulators is any device that creates even or odd harmonics also adds intermodulation distortion. And IM distortion is definitely not musical because the products generated are not necessarily related to the original musical notes. As to why you'd want to remove odd harmonics, I have no idea! Except maybe as a special effect. But I'll point out that you can remove both kinds of harmonic by simply turning down the treble control. --Ethan
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Hey Ethan, I was only joking about removing anything that was odd... ...and I wasn't trying to give any scientific response, but rather, pass along what is a very common, accepted belief...YMMV... I didn't think I stated that music was/should only be made up of even harmonics. However...not getting into all the IM distortion stuff...it is my understanding the whole tape/tube frenzy is based on the fact that those things do add MORE even harmonics to the original source. Also...for many, many folks...that "appears" to be a "pleasing" "effect"...therefore many have deduced that adding even harmonics "improves" the original source. Obviously...some people will not hear any "improvement" and might actually find it "degrading" to the original sound because of the IM distortion you refer too. As you can see...I've put key phrases in quotes...so a lot of this IS subjective. I take it then that you are not much of a tube/tape "freak"...hehehe...?

miroslav - miroslavmusic.com

 

"Just because it happened to you, it doesn't mean it's important."

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Miroslav, > I was only joking about removing anything that was odd... < Of course, I knew that! :) > and I wasn't trying to give any scientific response, but rather, pass along what is a very common, accepted belief...YMMV... < Well, you said, "the even harmonics are the 'sought after' audio magic dust," and that's what I was pointing out is not really true. Real musical instruments create tones with both even and odd harmonics. > it is my understanding the whole tape/tube frenzy is based on the fact that those things do add MORE even harmonics to the original source. < Again, this is not really true. Any distortion that is not contrived through a special circuit or algorithm will create both even and odd harmonics. > ... and might actually find it "degrading" to the original sound because of the IM distortion you refer too. < Exactly. > I take it then that you are not much of a tube/tape "freak"...hehehe...? < No, though I admit that I have made copies of pop songs onto a cassette and they sometimes sound "better." So I am not opposed to using distortion as an effect. But I do object to the notion that analog tape or tubes are somehow better than a clean digital recording or solid state signal path. It's important to know that such distortion is an effect, and not higher fidelity. --Ethan
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Oh Ethan, what can I say? Nobody's perfect :)
The alchemy of the masters moving molecules of air, we capture by moving particles of iron, so that the poetry of the ancients will echo into the future.
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  • 1 year later...
This is a tricky subject, and a lot of the confusion stems from the distinction (or rather lack thereof) between naturally occurring harmonic "character," and harmonic "distortion" incurred by electrical circuits. Add to this the fact that circuits may amplify certain harmonic "characteristics" faithfully (or otherwise) depending on what kind and quality of circuits they are and how hard they are driven - as well as what sorts of harmonic "distortions" they produce in that regard - and you've got a recipé for lots of variables and a truckload of confusion. When Eve-Anna Manley guest-moderated a forum on Gearslutz, we had a thread there dedicated to this subject (Ethan, perhaps you remember this, as I believe you contributed to that thread). The thread was titled "About Distortion," and it was a disaster. Some of the most illustrious names in engineering failed to come to a consensus as to how to objectively approach this subject without fear of offending somebody. But as far as THIS thread goes...I think Ethan summed the equation well with this bit: [quote]posted by Ethan: [b]When an electronic circuit or device (or software emulation) distorts it create both even and odd harmonics. Both types of harmonics are related to the fundamental musical note, and so will be "musical." The real problem with tape, tubes, and their emulators is any device that creates even or odd harmonics also adds intermodulation distortion. And IM distortion is definitely not musical because the products generated are not necessarily related to the original musical notes.[/b][/quote]Now, there is some research which suggests that tube amplification reproduces 2nd-order harmonics well, and as such make certain voices sound "bigger," "fuller," "phatter" or more like the "brown sound." But if it's shitty tube gear your using, you'll get more of those problems Ethan referred to than benefits of "tube-niceness," and so all bets are off in that regard. Tape saturation, on the otherhand, simply compresses high frequencies disproportionately to the mids and lows. I'll stop there, lest Ethan cares to momentarily put down that big fuzzy black cat he's cradling, and stand me corrected or clarified on any of this.

Eric Vincent (ASCAP)

www.curvedominant.com

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Eric, Wow, this brings back memories! For a moment there I thought this was a new thread. :D > I'll stop there, lest Ethan cares to momentarily put down that big fuzzy black cat he's cradling, and stand me corrected < Nope, you got it right. Though I'm not certain about "Tape saturation, on the other hand, simply compresses high frequencies disproportionately to the mids and lows." I never analyzed that so I can't say for sure. I can say for sure that it creates distortion! Personally, I have no use for distortion except when I play my Telecaster. And sometimes I'll dirty up a direct-recorded electric bass with an amp simulator plug-in. But for vocals, drums, strings, saxophones - heck, everything [i]but[/i] rock guitars - I prefer the sound to be as clean and faithful to the original as possible. --Ethan PS: Bear is sleeping at the moment. I'll tell him you said Hi when he wakes up. :wave:
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To oversimplify: Natural sounds from musical instruments, and unnatural sounds from recording devices traffic in both even and odd harmonics. Your software is not talking about natural sounds from musical instruments. It is addressing harmonics added by recording devices in the form of distortion. Of distortion added by recording devices, people not only prefer -- but often go to great lengths to add -- distortion along even harmonics, primarily through 1) seeking devices that claim to add the euphamism of "tube warmth," and 2) by kissing Eve-Ann-Eve-Anna Manley's ass at trade shows. On the other hand, odd harmonics, the bastard child of silicon and solid state, have been sufficiently vilified as to spawn the opposite, products designed to erradicate them. The software described above is in this category, claiming to eliminate the nasty distortion associated with silicon and solid state, while coddling the "good cholestoral" of even harmonics that audio afficiandos seek through vintage reissues the world over. -ace, ove, and rittanylips
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The folks at Tech21, the makers of the "Sans Amp" and a bunch of other guitar products have some cool info on even/odd order harmonics on their website. The "famous" tubescreamer pedal has the effect of increasing the level of the "odd" harmonics. It doesn't add harmonics, just increases the presence of the odd ones. Some of Tech21's pedals are designed to emphasize EITHER odd or even harmonics depending on the sound you're looking for. The Tech21 XXL pedal for example has a "Warp" knob that lets you change the amount of boost for the odd or even harmonics and it certainly creates a difference in the sound. Also, Class A amps tend to favor or boost the even harmonics, and Class A/B amps the odd harmonics. This supposedly accounts for the "sweet" sound of Class A amps... On the Tech21 site, they have a variety of graphs that illustrate the way their products shape the tone. For anyone interested in this issue, this might be interesting... [url=http://www.tech21nyc.com/]Tech21 website[/url] Go to the Products page, select the XXL pedal... then go to the "more in depth" information page for the graphs and stuff. guitplayer

I'm still "guitplayer"!

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Guit, > The Tech21 XXL pedal for example has a "Warp" knob that lets you change the amount of boost for the odd or even harmonics < Man, that site badly needs some editing! :D That said, what you and they describe is not at all what's happening. Since their explanation centers around processing a sine wave, which has no harmonics at all, that pedal is clearly creating harmonics, not selectively boosting them. Which is probably impossible to do anyway. This doesn't mean it's not a fine effects pedal! But yet again a vendor has obfuscated a simple principle when they didn't have to. That reminds me of the original ads for the Aphex Aural Exciter many years ago, when Aphex made up all kinds of nonsense about how it worked. Later they admitted it was all BS - duh! - and now they don't try to hide that they just add distortion. --Ethan
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Lurker, > Click on me for excellent articles < That one didn't impress me much either, sorry to say. And they'd benefit from a pass through a spell checker too. Here's one gem, early on, that doesn't help their case: "Tube records have more bass. . . . The bass actually sounds an octave lower," says one rock guitarist. I have to take this kind of pseudo-scholarly article with a grain of salt. I mean, they're talking about the difference between tubes and transistors when the distortion hits 30 percent. Those guys should listen to a good Crown power amp some time... Again, this is not to say that Fearn doesn't make good gear. What amazes me is why companies feel they need faux technical articles to promote their products. I wish they'd just say, "Lots of pro engineers like our stuff because it sounds really good." --Ethan
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Johnny, > Try reading the old AES whitepaper by Russell Hamm on the DW Fearne site. < I did. That's the article I was commenting on! And I'm sorry if my tone seemed harsh. I didn't mean it to sound that way. But that article starts with the assumption that rock guitar players know good sound better than professional audio engineers, and goes downhill from there. :D --Ethan
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Ethan, I thought the whole idea of Russell Hamm's paper was to do some measurements and shed a little scientific light on the topic. In any event, I believe Hamm does a pretty good job explaining the different harmonics. I guess that's why DW Ferne posted it on his site. Now, if you want to say "Guitar Players are crazy," well that's an enirely different topic, but you won't get too much argument from me. LOL.
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[quote]Originally posted by Ethan Winer: [b] Again, this is not to say that Fearn doesn't make good gear. What amazes me is why companies feel they need faux technical articles to promote their products. I wish they'd just say, "Lots of pro engineers like our stuff because it sounds really good." [/b][/quote]I use Fearn's VT-2 Preamp because it sounds really good. ;) -ace, ve, d ittanylips
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