music-man Posted February 1, 2002 Share Posted February 1, 2002 I got a deal from a gear salesperson - about 44% below list, on a discontinued but really great combo amp. I felt really good about it, but then a friend told me he thought the amount I paid was "about right" - he said he never pays more than 40% under list. Accepting that a list price is bogus (except with Carvin) ... : 1. How much do you walk into a store expecting a retailer to knock off list? 2. Assuming you're prepared to buy a piece of gear (need it and have the cash), how much will you absolutely demand in order to buy it? Apologies if this is an over-discussed topic - fire me links to past threads if I missed them. Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tedster Posted February 1, 2002 Share Posted February 1, 2002 Different items have different markups, enabling retailers to knock more off one given item, while not as much on another. Additionally, discounts given to retailers increase with volume of purchase, so a larger dealer will be able to knock more off the list price than a smaller dealer. I don't expect a given percentage off list. I just shop for what I perceive to be the best deal. Many of the stores are using "haggle free" marketing, marking their prices low enough and posting the suggested retail price for comparison ("Was $1000, our low price $599.99!") which sorta effectively removes the haggle factor. But if you go across the street and find the same thing for $579.99 :D , why not? Them and their damn stupid 99s, anyway... "Cisco Kid, was a friend of mine" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S_Gould Posted February 1, 2002 Share Posted February 1, 2002 If your friend never pays more than 40% off list, there's an awful lot of gear he'll never own. A lot of the better stuff COSTS the dealer more than 40% off list ('B' mark in retail parlance), so unless you're buying at a bankruptcy clearance or the like, you can't buy at 40% off. Now, there are quite a lot of things like entry-level guitars & amps (think Squire, etc.) that dealers can afford to blow out. For quality recording gear and higher-end instruments this almost never happens (the exceptions are usually end-of-life models & 'dead' inventory). Scott Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lwilliam Posted February 1, 2002 Share Posted February 1, 2002 It also depends on how "hot" the gear is (not stolen - but in demand). A new "hot" item will sometimes command nearly full retail and if you can get 10% off that, you're doing great. Other stuff - especially discontinued items should be at least 40% off...sometimes as much as 60% off. I would guess that 80% of the stuff out there can be had for 25-30% off on a daily basis. The higher-end stuff usually doesn't have as high a markup and so you might only get 15-20% off. There are a lot of variables. Larry W. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philip OKeefe Posted February 2, 2002 Share Posted February 2, 2002 I agree with everything that has been written so far. Certainly you should expect to get more off of an A mark product (wholesale = 50 % of retail price) than you can expect to get discounted off of a B mark item. But there's more involved in the entire equation than just the mark. There's costs involved in warehousing (storing your inventory) and displaying it, as well as other overhead concerns a dealer has to be concerned with. The way the Guitarmarts make their money is, as most of you know, on sales volume. The name of the game is to move product. LOTS of product! If you make less per unit, you HAVE to make it up on sales volume and sales efficiency. But there's other things related to the wholesale price the dealer pays that concern our discussion of volume... Let's say you're a XYZ guitar dealership. A Mom and Pop establishment in the suburbs. You do pretty well for yourself, but you're not Guitarget. You're getting ready to buy some inventory from your XYZ rep. You were planning on buying 20 "A mark" guitars with a MSRP of $1,000 each. Your price is going to be $500 each - $10,000. Sell all 20 this month at 25% off retail ($750) and you've got a gross profit of $5,000.00. But suppose you are offered a "deal" by your XYZ rep - buy 25 guitars this month, and they will be "A Mark minus 10%". IOW, you're paying the A Mark price, less 10% of that A Mark price per unit. In our example above: $1,000 retail, $500 wholesale, less 10% of $500 = $450 / cost per unit. You now have a choice - sell those guitars at the same discount as before (25% off retail) and make a greater profit, or lower your "sales" price. Stuff like this DOES happen - every day. So sometimes it IS possible for dealers to sell "close to the mark" and still make a profit - depending on how they made the investment and what it cost them. And if a "Mom and Pop" establishment can get a price break on 25 units, what do you think happens when your local "GuitarSam" purchases a few thousand units for their nationwide chain? Personally, I don't have a problem with any of this, regardless of how all of this may sound to some of you. They're in business to make a profit, and there's absolutely NOTHING wrong with that. But you know what they say - "knowledge is power". I think the way of looking at it that most of you have mentioned is a little bit backwards. You're looking at X amount off of retail. Personally, my approach is X amount OVER COST. That amount represents a amount that I feel is a fair profit for the retailer, and the best possible price for myself (also a business owner). But I'm in a little bit different position than many of you. While dealers can't make as much money off of me directly (due to my knowledge of prices and markup structures), the ones I deal with realize that I'm in a position where I can recommend dealers to a wide variety of my clients. Because of my reasonably well developed "product knowledge", I can handle all the messy "features and benefits" aspects of the sale FOR THEM as part of my daily chats about gear with various clients. Studio clients tend to talk to engineers about gear they may be considering and ask for opinions. They're more likely to trust me and respect my opinion for several reasons - not the least of which is that I stand to make no direct profit in the matter. The client gets free, unbiased gear advice from someone who (at least ought to) knows about the gear. The stores get "pre-sold" client referrals in exchange for treating those peole fairly, and I get lower prices. Heck, I even have some local dealers call ME with product knowledge questions from time to time. It's a Win-Win relationship for all concerned. So what do I usually pay? 10 percent up over Mark cost. Sometimes a little more, and sometimes even less, depending on the item. For most people, such "pro" pricing isn't going to happen, but I'd say it's not unreasonable to expect to get things for no more than 20% over Mark cost in most cases. If you comparison shop, this is usually pretty easy to accomplish, since most dealers have "price matching" policies. But remember, there's manufactur imposed "MAP's" (Minimum Advertised Price) - which dealers can not violate without breakig their contract with the manufacturers and loosing the product line. They can SELL it for less, just not ADVERTISE it for less. So [i]sometimes[/i] deals are available that are even lower than the best advertised price you find. Next week's lesson: "SPIFF's - sales incentive tool or legal kickbacks?" :rolleyes: ;) :eek: :D [img]http://www.freakygamers.com/smilies/s2/contrib/navigator/usa.gif[/img] Phil O'Keefe Sound Sanctuary Recording Riverside CA http://www.ssrstudio.com pokeefe777@ssrstudio.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the stranger Posted February 2, 2002 Share Posted February 2, 2002 The first thing I do is reaserch and find out what the absolute lowest price and item can be had for, be it catalog or otherwise. (And the truth is, the big mail order guys usually can't be beat. Volume and massive buying power.) Then when I'm in a retail environment, I shoot for 5% above the lowest price I found. If I'm dealing with a good sales guy, I will consider 10% or 15%. I treat the whole retail affair like eating out. The service I recieve will determine what I'm willing to give or if I'll do business there at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
videoeditor1 Posted February 2, 2002 Share Posted February 2, 2002 It depends.... A factor I always consider is the type of post sales service I am going to get from my dealer. My 1st Tascam MX2424 was shipped to be Fed EX, configured with the analog card, ready to go....my "dealer" is in NYS. I was in Japan. I had two busted TC Electronics pieces. They made a transparent, seamless exchange (I took my peices in, they gave me loaner pieces, sent mine out etc) Plus, I have "terms" with my dealer(s). The flexibility I get with net 14 or net 30 due outweighs the $40, or $100 dollars I [i]perceive[/i] I would save from going to another vendor. I'm more interested in developing RELATIONSHIPS with the people I work with (clients, vendors etc) tahm I am in maxxing out my profit, or conversely, paying rock bottom. [ 02-02-2002: Message edited by: NYC Drew ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trailermusic Posted February 3, 2002 Share Posted February 3, 2002 NYC Drew is right about developing relationships with salespeople (I'm speaking from both sides of the aisle - formerly sales, currently production). The kicker is that the longer and more productive a relationship you have with the salesperson, the discounts become steep and are offered without your asking . Remember, you want your salesperson to be happy, so make sure he makes his nickel. And he doesn't wish to estrange you, his loyal customer, by quoting nothing but a market competitive price. That combination will nurture a cozy relationship which will among other things, give you the heads up on new gear and allow for loaners and trial demo units. This stuff is way more important than shopping around (and wasting precious time) in order to save a few bucks. Of course, this whole theory gets shot down when your salesperson leaves the store to do the music thing, and you've got to start over with a newbie. For this reason, if you're a regular customer at a store, it's good to deal with (or at least be known to) the manager.... And about the markup issue - unless you know whether an item is A, B or C, you cannot figure if that 25% discount is the best deal you can get. By developing a relationship and trusting your salesperson, you'll assume you're getting a fair price in every instance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philip OKeefe Posted February 3, 2002 Share Posted February 3, 2002 I agree with you guys 1000 % - I'd rather pay an extra $50 on a $500 purchase for the increased service. And it IS about relationships... I couldn't get some of the deals I do if I wasn't on great terms with the management and salespeople. [img]http://www.freakygamers.com/smilies/s2/contrib/navigator/usa.gif[/img] Phil O'Keefe Sound Sanctuary Recording Riverside CA http://www.ssrstudio.com pokeefe777@ssrstudio.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nika Posted February 3, 2002 Share Posted February 3, 2002 I gotta agree with the flow on this one. A. Relationships B. Different things have different markups C. It's not all about price anyway I just bought some stuff that I got a 12% discount off of list price for and I was ecstatic - because 12% off [i]I know[/i] is better than most people get. That was actually a screaming deal on that stuff. (By the way, I was buying it directly from the manufacturer, no dealer involved) I also just bought something and paid around 10% more than I could have gotten it for because of the whole "relationship" thing. I considered it "gratuity". Kind of like a nice tip at a nice restaurant. Anyway, if I demanded a certain discount for the type of stuff that I buy I would never end up buying anything. The pricing that you're talking about (45% or so) is actually less than it costs to [i]build[/i] a lot of stuff that I buy. By the time I add some profit for the manufacturer, the profit for a distributor, some shipping to move it around the country, and some profit for the guys that stock it and take the time to help me assess it for my situation it costs a heckuva lot more than 45% off of list. The more expensive the boxes get the less that "list price" vs. "street price" actually means anything consistently. Nika. For more... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robmix Posted February 3, 2002 Share Posted February 3, 2002 I actually approach the whole thing from the other side. At the stores I have good relationships with I'll just ask what their cost is. Most of them will give me a 10% markup on that. List price to me is just some arbitrary number that doesn't take into account what the store is paying, so as Nika said, asking for a 45% or some other percentage markdown on purchases can get the store into losses. Some stores aren't willing to do it, but those that know me know that I'm probably going to buy more gear than most corporate customers, so it's worth the smaller markup if I come back every week. I generally don't ask for a discount on boutique stuff, gear I've bought from Mercenery, or direct from the builders. Just the big corporate stuff - synths, effects, etc. Rob Rob Hoffman http://www.robmixmusic.com Los Angeles, CA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AudioGaff Posted February 4, 2002 Share Posted February 4, 2002 I have never paid more than 10-points above cost. At Guitar Center this is commonly called the "pro deal" If you have done dozens of transactions over a few years you should qualify. Now what cost is from one store to another is a different accounting game. Since my brother is a Manager at a local music store, I get my stuff at cost for the lines they carry. He usually gets some nice Christmas and birthday gifts from me... - Bruce - - AudioGaff - Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan South Posted February 4, 2002 Share Posted February 4, 2002 Manufacturers sometimes dictate the maximum discount. The DX7 and the original ADAT were sold at MSRP for a LONG time. Apple controls their pricing meticulously. Better than buying gear at razor thin margins is to buy only the gear that you really NEED - another perk of a good vendor relationship - from someone who will help you on those occasions when things break. Retail channels are important, as are shippers, importers, and distributers. It's a heck of a lot easier to deal with a store in your city than with a manufacturer on the other side of the globe. That service comes at a small price. Pay a reasonable price for it and things will usually work smoothly. Just don't pay an unreasonable price for it. The Black Knight always triumphs! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fv_dup1 Posted February 4, 2002 Share Posted February 4, 2002 Hi, While I don't have much to add, I'll second (or third or fourth - I lost count) the point on relationships. This is a big one IMHO. I've been dealing with the same dealer for over 5 years now. Not a long time, I know but long enough to get me good discounts on the gear I buy for the most part. I used to go between the 3 or 4 stores in town and try to get the best price and buy there. In the past 5+ years, I've had better discounts than I ever had. Why? Because of my relationship with my dealer. For the most part, he comes in around any of the best online deals that I can find and sometimes much better. There are a few times when he has been unable to get a really excellent price that I can maybe get from another dealer. We have such a good relationship that he's even told me that he doesn't blame me if I go buy it somewhere else. These times are very few though and he knows that I basically come to him first for any gear purhcases. He also knows that there have been a few times where I've paid a little more by going through him. If I am not saving 20-30% more on an item going somewhere else, I buy from him always. This kind of loyalty has paid off many times. While he is not the manager there, the manager knows me well so, even if my dealer left the company, I would still be able to get good deals. My 2cents worth, fv Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
big K Posted February 7, 2002 Share Posted February 7, 2002 I will add my thoughs, genral rule of thum in canada is that you pay the same as the US, in canadian. IE 250 msrp(US)... can usally be had for 250 canadian. I think one thing to note is that whole relationship thing. WE may value it , but my local guys don't. I was in there TRYING to get a set of monitors(ended up the ps 6's) I WAS BUYING STUFF!... then this big ticket item guys comes in, not planing to buy and thing, just want the head guy to fix his drivers and crap.... could I get this guy to hook up a demo ... no way. Pissed me off I wait about an hour for this guy to hook up a few wires so I could here a set of 900 dollar monitors. I don't know if that proves my point or refruits it, but I feel better haveing voiced it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fantasticsound Posted February 7, 2002 Share Posted February 7, 2002 Excellent information on this thread. A side note; Beware of what company you are dealing with, directly. Warranties may be different or non-existant in countries other than that of the manufacturer. I.e., Gibson guitars offers a limited lifetime warranty to U.S. customers. Gibson does not do business outside the U.S., so warranty and pricing policies are the sole discretion of the international distributor for whatever country you buy your gear in. Gibson has many distributors buying and selling their products. All have unique policies. You can't even speak to Gibson USA about foreign warranties. In addition, if you purchase a Gibson USA product in the U.S., and transport it overseas.. you must return it to a U.S. warranty service center or the factory, and you are responsible for shipping in both directions. That can be a really hefty cost, especially considering the problem may not be covered under warranty. You won't know until they get a look at it, so you're out a lot of money if it's not covered. I've heard lots of grumbling about local prices in parts of Australia, but I would contend you'd be better off spending the money on a product whose warranty can be serviced where YOU are. It's easiest to find me on Facebook. Neil Bergman Soundclick fntstcsnd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
videoeditor1 Posted February 7, 2002 Share Posted February 7, 2002 [quote]Originally posted by knemrava: [b] ...then this big ticket item guys comes in, not planing to buy and thing, just want the head guy to fix his drivers and crap.... could I get this guy to hook up a demo ... no way. Pissed me off I wait about an hour for this guy to hook up a few wires so I could here a set of 900 dollar monitors. .....[/b][/quote] :) Don't worry. One day you'll be that big ticket guy, and you probably won't notice the lowly peon that's been waiting for an hour trying to demo a microphone, etc.... NYC Drew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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