Room acoustics for a friggin' idiot

[Dan Worley]

I have one room which I record and mix in. It's 31' x 24' with an 11' peak (cathedral) ceiling. I know the room needs more treatment, but I've put it off because I don't know what I'm doing when it comes to treating a room, and I'm afraid I'm going to make things more worse than they already are.

 

The main problem I've experienced over and over again are my mixes not translating well on other systems, but it's not the usual problems such as too much or not enough bass, or even any tonal or level imbalances. The problem I have (I think) is too many early reflections in the recording that make them sound distant and thin and quacky on other systems--even though they sound fine on my monitors.

 

I read the following in one of Bruce's posts the other day, but I didn't give it much thought until tonight. I think this may be the major source of my problem.

 

Bruce Swedien wrote:

 

The same factors apply to control room acoustical design with one exception. The control room should be approximately 25% more "dead" than the studio. This must be in the form of wide range acoustical absorption. By making the control room more dead than the studio it is far easier to hear the sound of the studio itself by removing the coloring effect that a too reverberant control room would add to the sound of the mix.

I'm always so surprised when I play my mixes on another system to find that they are distant and thin and quacky, even though I've mixed without any reverb at all. I think the reason is because I don't hear the flaws of the "Studio" when I track or mix because my Control Room IS the Studio, so it hides the flaws that the studio has.

 

Does that make sense to you? Do you think I'm on the right track? I think I am, and, if so, this continuing nightmare will soon end.

 

Now, what to do about it? How can I make my mix position more dead than the live area if I'm in the same room? I do have some studio traps from ASC. Eight of 'em. They were supposed to go to Cuba when Bruce was over there, but he told ASC he had enough so they sold them to me. Maybe I should get eight more so I can deaden the mix area? Maybe I need some behind me?

 

Oh, by the way. I've read at least two hundred articles and three books on studio design. Plus a thousand or so articles and posts on the internet. The problem is, I don't get it. I don't like it. I don't want to deal with it. But I can't afford a professional to come in here so I'm stuck with doing it myself.

 

Any suggestion are welcome. And if you think I'm full of s... you can tell me that too, but only if you're not.

 

Thanks,

 

Dan Worley

[Harald F. Metzner]

 

Oh, by the way. I've read at least two hundred articles and three books on studio design. Plus a thousand or so articles and posts on the internet. The problem is, I don't get it. I don't like it. I don't want to deal with it. But I can't afford a professional to come in here so I'm stuck with doing it myself.

 

Hello, looks like you did your homework, so its ok to ask if you're stuck. Can you plz draw a plan of your studio/control room so we can discuss it here or in John Slayers forum?

You have the studio traps, thats ok for a start. There is the LEDE concept, meaning life-end/dead end for a control room. You should have a minimum to no reflection from the front end of your room, a some minor reflections from behind. So if you have drawn a plan and we know how your studio is set up and where the studio traps are, we can tell you how to place them. Its also important to know the size and measures of your studio/control room, to know, if you maybe have some standing waves that will destroy your bass-sound etc.

If you don't know how to up a drawing in the forum, drop me a mail.

[rold]

Totally agreed - talk to John - his designs and tips have saved my ass over the years

[Dan Worley]

Here's a layout of the studio. Things are a little different now from when I made this drawing, like the nearfields are five feet away from the front wall instead of four, and there are two 2' x 4' minitrap-like traps hanging down from the peak ceiling. I made them out of OC 703 rigid fiberglass. Six Studio Traps are in the space between the front windows where it says drywall, and two traps are in the back two corners. All are set to absorb not reflect. I pull them out and use them when I track guitar or vocals sometimes, but not all the time.

 

Thanks,

 

Dan Worley

 

http://www.earthen.com/studio_overhead.gif

[where02190]

If your mixes ar ethin then you've got too much low end gong on, mostl likely due to standing waves. You need to get an acoustic picture of your room in order to know what to treat. A spectrum analyzer, SPL meter and sweepable tone generator can assist you in gathering this information, and can be either purchased or rented from a local audio rental house for reasonable daily rates. Sweep tones slowly using a narow band generator, and note the variances in levels. You'll most likely find mathematical combinations of frequencies in the low end that will peak or null. Either with porfessionally built or DIY traps, treat these frequencies.

 

You may need some damping treatment in the cathedral ceiling. Experiment with hanging a heavy blanket or similar in the ceiling to brreak up the standing wave. If this makes a noticable difference, do womehting more permanent and fire retardant. A cathedral ceiling is a standing wave problem design, but by breaking up the cavity, you can break up the standing wave and greatly reduce it's affects.

 

For mid/hi issues, treat the room with absorption/diffusion panels, again either prebuilt or DIY. Treat areas that face opposing walls at 90 and 180 degrees, as these will yield the worst issues of early reflections.

 

Hold a mirror to the face of your control room monitors, and sit in the sweet spot. any surfaces you can see need to be treated.

 

These are just a few relatively simple and inexpensive methods of room treatment.

[Kendrix]

Even if the room is problematic you should be able to get as "up-front" as sound as you want via a combination of micing technique and compression.

 

I cant imagine why all but the very worst acoustic environments would not allow for this.

 

As for treatment. Starting out by just placing a handful of 703 or 705 fiberglass panels around in key spots is a very cheap and flexible way to experiment with this- It can yield huge improvements- cept for the very low end.

 

See Ethan Winers forum for some pointers on that.

[Tedly Nightshade]

If you experiment a lot you can find the best places to put your speakers in that room, and the best place to listen from. That can make a tremendous difference.

[KenElevenShadows]

How much of this is due to the room that you are doing the actual recording in, as opposed to the room that you are doing the monitoring in?

[Dan Worley]

Originally posted by Ken/Eleven Shadows:

How much of this is due to the room that you are doing the actual recording in, as opposed to the room that you are doing the monitoring in?

That's the point. The problem, I think, starts with the recording/tracking area, but when I monitor the tracks or mix, things sound fine to me because the same acoustic flaws that affect the tracks don't allow me to hear the flaws on the tracks when I mix or monitor in the same room. Did that make any sense whatsoever?

 

Let me give an exaggerated example. Let's say you record drums in a huge tile room. If you also mixed those drum tracks in the same huge tile room, you would not hear all the slap-backs and early reflections and reverb on those tracks until you played your mix somewhere else. The same is true, I think, for not so extreme rooms. That's what finally caught my attention is Bruce's post. "The control room should be approximately 25% more "dead" than the studio."

 

Am I nuts or does this make sense to anyone?

 

As a bold experiment, I think what I'm going to do is go to my local insulation supplier and borrow about thirty wrapped rolls of insulation. I'm going to stack those suckers up around the mix area and then mix a song with I've already tracked in the live room. Then I should be able to hear what room qualities are really on those tracks. After that I can decide how best to treat this room for both tracking and mixing.

 

What do you guys think?

 

Thanks,

 

Dan Worley

[djwayne]

Very nice room !! I wish I had that much space to work with. If I did, I'd certainly be considering either the mike stand tubes that Bruce has, or some sort of movable absorbsion panels, to isolate the piano, drums, ect. and to create a temporary isolation type booth or area for vocals.

 

I'd put up the heaviest drapes I could find over the windows, and some sort of absorbtion material on the hard doors.

 

I'd also be hanging permamently wired mics from the ceiling to capture the room sound. Set them up, get a great sound and leave them there. You may want to consider more carpeting on the floors.

 

You wanted to know what we think......right or wrong, that's what I think. Great room to work with though !!

[djwayne]

You could also run a set of heavy drapes to split the room for when your're mixing. That would look much better than 30 rolls of insulation.

[KenElevenShadows]

Ah, gotcha. For some reason, I thought it was two rooms, but that's only because I didn't pay enough attention to your drawing. This makes it doubly important to get the acoustic right if you are doing this.

 

That's a really large room, but you might want to put some bass traps (RealTraps or something else, I guess) in the corners and then obviously get the area around the monitoring area acoustically fit. And then I'd consider getting some sort of portable acoustic treatments (those tube things, RealTraps, or similar items) so that you can put them around the drums, piano, vocalist, etc. and be able to have some control over the sound.

 

I sure wish I had a space that large to record stuff in. But as it stands now, you have 744 square feet. My entire house is 926 square feet!!! That's a lot of space to play with, and a lot of potential for great sounding tracks.

 

You are posting this over in Ethan Winer's forum, aren't you?

[djwayne]

You might want to take a look at some of these products for some ideas.....

 

http://www.silentsource.com/ceilings.html

[Dan Worley]

Originally posted by djwayne:

You could also run a set of heavy drapes to split the room for when your're mixing. That would look much better than 30 rolls of insulation.

I'm not going to keep the rolls of insulation in here permanently . I'm just going to borrow them in the evening and bring them back in the morning. It's just a cheap and easy way to figure out this room print. Well, I don't know how easy it is to move 30 big rolls of insulation, but it's cheap.

 

I'm not a drapes kind of guy. Besides, they would have to be really heavy.

 

In answer to your other post:

 

Yes, this is a nice room. I enjoy this room, and the rest of the building. It is very comfortable. I consider it home. I'm here all the time anyway.

 

Hanging microphones is not a good idea, because you never know where you're going to set up. It would cause phasing problems.

 

Thanks,

 

Dan Worley

[Dan Worley]

Originally posted by Ken/Eleven Shadows:

Ah, gotcha. For some reason, I thought it was two rooms, but that's only because I didn't pay enough attention to your drawing. This makes it doubly important to get the acoustic right if you are doing this.

 

That's a really large room, but you might want to put some bass traps (RealTraps or something else, I guess) in the corners and then obviously get the area around the monitoring area acoustically fit. And then I'd consider getting some sort of portable acoustic treatments (those tube things, RealTraps, or similar items) so that you can put them around the drums, piano, vocalist, etc. and be able to have some control over the sound.

 

I sure wish I had a space that large to record stuff in. But as it stands now, you have 744 square feet. My entire house is 926 square feet!!! That's a lot of space to play with, and a lot of potential for great sounding tracks.

 

You are posting this over in Ethan Winer's forum, aren't you?

Thanks. You have some good ideas. Some of which I'm doing already and some of which I've been considering for quite some time. I'm about 1/4 of the way there. I have what ASC calls the Quick Sound Field, which is eight studio traps. I like them. They're very flexible in their uses. They do what they were designed to do, and more. I use them for tracking (not always), and I also use them for deadening the area in front of the speakers when I'm mixing. I need more of the darn things is what I need, but they're not cheap, and I am. I would really like to try out a full Attack Wall to see if I liked it.

 

I also like the idea of RealTraps. The problem is they're not cheap either. But Ethan and others have been very kind in explaining how to build your own. Albeit they're not exactly like RealTraps, but close enough for me. Right now I have two hanging from the peak ceiling. That helped quite a bit. I would like to have quite a few more on the walls and in the corners and tri-corners. I may do that soon.

 

Thanks,

 

Dan Worley

[Dan Worley]

I posted this on another thread, but I thought it might also be helpful here. This will give you some idea what the room sounds like. This was recorded almost in the middle of the room. Maybe off center by 4ft one way and two feet the other, moving towards the piano.

 

This is raw. No EQ. No compression. No limiting. No effects. It was recorded with three mics. A pair of cardioid condensers in XY on the guitar, and a large diaphragm (set to cardioid) on the vocal.

 

You'll have to turn it up because I didn't boost any levels. This is straight to the hard drive.

 

"Warm To The Touch"

4:29

4.2MB

 

Vox Bleed into Guitar Mics

31 sec.

491k

 

Guitar bleed into vox mic

16 sec

266k

 

Any ideas welcome.

 

Thanks,

 

Dan Worley

[Tedly Nightshade]

I record and monitor in the same room most times, so I know what you're talking about.

 

Exact placement of microphone and instrument, ears and speakers, within the room, is paramount.

 

Monitoring quietly will excite the room a lot less. A drum track monitored at 80 dB will yield less room excitement than a live drum set in that room.

 

Another good one is headphones. You should be able to judge the tracking acoustics very accurately through great headphones. And headphones are relatively inexpensive.

[Dennyf]

This is a little off-topic, but setting the room and recording issues aside for a moment, when I'm mixing, I always keep what I consider a well-recorded CD of similar material in the CD drive to "re-calibrate" my ears every once in a while during a mixing session. Helps keep me or my monitoring situation from leading myself too far afield.

[witesol]

Wow, yea man, nice setup.

You just have a too reverberent space. You totally make sense about tracking and listening in the same environment, you'll never hear what the problems are.

You said this:

 

" Here's a layout of the studio. Things are a little different now from when I made this drawing, like the nearfields are five feet away from the front wall instead of four, and there are two 2' x 4' minitrap-like traps hanging down from the peak ceiling. I made them out of OC 703 rigid fiberglass. Six Studio Traps are in the space between the front windows where it says drywall, and two traps are in the back two corners. All are set to absorb not reflect. I pull them out and use them when I track guitar or vocals sometimes, but not all the time."

 

 

First of all why are you not utilizing your bass traps all the time? You barely have enough to do a space half that size to begin with. from what I understand you have 8 bass traps available. taking into account that you built them right and spaced them off the wall, in that size room you need more. You need to put them across the corners. You also need to knock down some of the flutter echo problems either DIY or purchase some quality foam(Auralex, Sonex or RPG) and place some around to kill some of those parallel surfaces. You have a lot of parallel walls to cover..and you don't want to cover all the surface. If you put up a piece of foam or DIY absorber on one wall, it is not needed on the opposite wall at the same location. You could easily make some gobos that are aborbtive on one side and semi-reflective on the other so you could tune the reverb of your room for tracking things. Unlike what's been stated above, the cathedral ceiling is actually better for standing waves and it's slanted surface directs reflections off at angles, and away from your mix location from what I understand. But, it is still too reflective. Some absorbtion is needed here too. $300-500 would treat your room well.

What is it about all the research you've done that you don't fathom?

[KenElevenShadows]

Originally posted by Dan Worley:

Thanks. You have some good ideas.[/QB]

Ah, it was a momentary lapse. It's passed now.

.

.

.

No, wait, here comes one other decent idea.

 

This may or may not apply to your case, but in the past that I've found that a bookcase filled with books is a surprisingly good diffusor. And it's a helluva lot more interesting than your average diffusor. AND it serves double-duty - storage and diffusion. Look, if Ikea advertised their bookcases as:

 

"Ingrot Bookcase and Sound Diffusor"

 

They could double their sales. I mean, all these people would be coming in for lingamberries and diffusors.

 

Ikea, are you listening? And if so, I want 10% of each Ingrot Bookcase and Sound Diffusor that you sell.