Paging Bruce Swedien: Whaddya think of this theory?

[dman]

What do you folks think of the recordings that are on the radio right now

In a word, if most of it disappeared we wouldn't be missing much. Most of the artists nowadays are disposable. Where are the Sinatras,Elvis,Beatles of this generation? It's certinly not Brittany

[David R]

I don't listen to mainstream radio anymore. I don't know what's popular in pop music really, and I don't much care. There is good rock music, pop music, whatever, but it's not necessarily on the airwaves. Joss Stone and Talib Kweli are two radio-play artists that come to mind, for me. This summer I turned on MuchMusic for the first time in years and it all sounded the same.

 

I find CDs, on my limited student budget, are becoming almost prohibitively expensive. For instance, I was in HMV on Boxing Day, and had a stack of CDs in my hand, and put them all back because I didn't have that kind of money to spend (all prices CAD):

- David Binney's South - $26.99

- Bill Frisell's Unspeakable - $21.99

- Medeski Martin & Wood's End of the World Party (Just In Case) - $21.99 (I think, something around there)

- Chris Potter's Gratitude - $18.99

- Bill Evans' Explorations - $17.99

 

If labels reduced the prices to around $15-$20 a shot, I'd buy more CDs. As much as I love David Binney, and want to support him, I'm not paying close to $30 for a single disc.

 

David

[John Sayers]

well if you weren't such a tightarse you'd be listening to five new albums now. We pay $32 for a CD.

 

Most people I talk with reckon music has never been better, especially the young people. Australian local music has been having a great year with artists like The John Butler Trio and The Waifs cleaning up. (Both independent BTW)

 

I understand Mutt Lang is going to produce Casey Chambers next work - hopefully he'll stop her from whineing and singing out her nose and she'll stop him from making 70s pop and calling it country.

 

cheers

john

[Anderton]

If you want to hear music, the answer is simple:

 

XM Radio!!!!!!!!!

 

Loose playlists, a zillion channels, good quality sound, and there's always something happening. If something comes on you don't like, you have plenty of other choices.

 

It's almost like you don't need CDs any more because there's just this constant outpouring of music. The African channel alone on XM is way cool. So are the DJ channels and there's lots of rock and country...and sometimes I tune in the comedy or news.

 

It costs $10 a month to subscribe, and $7 for additional subs. Best investment I've made in the past year for keeping my ears happy. I'm buying fewer CDs, but when I do, it's usually something I wouldn't have been turned on to had it not been for XM.

[theblue1]

Originally posted by Bruce Swedien:

Here's what I think!

 

I've heard the comment made, "I down-loaded so-and-so's new album, "It's great, now I can't wait to go out and buy it!" What's the key to this? Two words, "IT'S GREAT"

 

What do you folks think of the recordings that are on the radio right now? I'm not talking about technical quality.... (There's always time for that....)

 

Brucie the Viking!

Like a lot of folks, I don't listen to commercial radio at all anymore under normal circumstances.

 

I'm lucky that my town has a good straightahead jazz station and just up the way there's a once great and still pretty good college station ( kcrw.com ) that plays bubbling under music. A few years back it seemed like they were practically calling the shots for the west coast based music biz; they broke a lot of influential artists like Beck and Portishead and Air, etc; then their old MD got hired by a label and a film studio and some of their other key DJs got sucked up into the commercial side of the biz, mostly as music editors for films, it seemed like. But you can still hear some good stuff, particularly late at night and weekends, and the new MD has settled in nicley and does find some good new stuff and runs a pretty smooth ship.

 

My relationship with commercial radio ended back in the 80s when I was still actively working on o.p.'s projects. I got sick of our people being asked for bribes and drugs as a quid pro quo for radio play. It made me sick.

 

I'd drifted increasingly out of touch in recent years, though, mostly retreating to underground electronica and some of my first musical loves: jazz, roots blues, and folk.

 

But earlier this year I made a stab into this century and subscribed to MusicMatch On Demand, which lets me hear most of what I want to hear, and lets me check out tracks from new artists that are getting a buzz.

 

And, a few hip hop acts and some post rockers like Mogwai or Mars Volta notwithstanding, I'm wildly underimpressed by most of what I hear from what pass for rock bands these days.

 

It's pablum. Homogenized, predigested, regurgitated, lameass crap.

 

I had to start going back to rock from the 60s just to convince myself that it wasn't me, a change of life thing. (Well, there is that.) It was amazingly rich, in retrospect.

 

But the few new bands I do find that I like really are clearly exceptions to the current norm. They have ideas and aren't afraid to try new things and break The Rules that seem to be so heartily embraced by the rank and file of cookie cutter rockers.

 

One of my buddies used to have a term of derision for the people around us in high school at the end of the 60s: he said they were striving for normalcy.

 

And that's how I feel about most of the rock I hear out there.

 

They're all breaking their necks trying to sound like everyone else.

 

Sad stuff.

[miroslav]

Right nowits kinda weird, actuallythe music scene.

 

While there is a lot of good music out thereits all so disposablevery little of it seems to have any staying powereven to the young people who are buying most of it.

 

Andit all sounds the sameyear after year

maybe thats why its so disposableand each years new crop kinda pushes last years stuff into rapid obscurity, even though it migh have been good music.

 

Thats one of the reasons I really HATE listening to the radio anymoreits all so homogenized!!!

I swear that everyone out there is using the same formula or something, to churn out wave after wave of that similar sounding shit

so even though it may be goodit fades away fast.

 

Im not a big RAP/Hip Hop listenerbut is it me, or has that whole genre become just a caricature of itselfa new form of elevator music...you just listen to it in your car.

 

And Alternativewhat IS that anymore???

I think it has more to do with some sort of fashion trend than it does with music.

Its likejust about ANYTHING that is consumed by the white, college crowdfalls into the Alternative categoryexcept for Countrywhich has become quite twisted in its own way.

 

The new Country is made up of a lot of musicians that dont seem to know what they want to be when they grow upsotheres this tendency to try and crossover simultaneously into 2-3 other genres while wearing a cowboy hatand thats what they now call country music.

I must sayas cute as she may be.Shania bores the living shit out of me with her flavor of Country music.

I dunnoits really lost its direction, I think.

 

R&BYAAAAAAAAWN talk about polished turds!!!

I sure miss Motown!

 

One of the genres thats still kinda holdin true-to-formis your MOR/Easy Listening

...it still the same cheesy crapbut hey, at least it hasnt lost its identity.

Hey Kenny G...go blow!

 

Its all become so stagnanttheres good music...but very little of it that is still memorable two years later.

[David R]

Originally posted by John Sayers:

well if you weren't such a tightarse you'd be listening to five new albums now. We pay $32 for a CD.

 

Most people I talk with reckon music has never been better, especially the young people. Australian local music has been having a great year with artists like The John Butler Trio and The Waifs cleaning up. (Both independent BTW)

 

I understand Mutt Lang is going to produce Casey Chambers next work - hopefully he'll stop her from whineing and singing out her nose and she'll stop him from making 70s pop and calling it country.

 

cheers

john

Well, if I didn't have to store money away for tuition and books, I'd have 5 new CDs now. Being a tightarse has nothing to do with it. [/end thread hijack]

 

David

[Brittanylips]

Originally posted by dman:

What do you folks think of the recordings that are on the radio right now

In a word, if most of it disappeared we wouldn't be missing much. Most of the artists nowadays are disposable. Where are the Sinatras,Elvis,Beatles of this generation? It's certinly not Brittany

Dr. Bombay, Dr. Bombay...

 

There I was, enjoying my vacation, popping truffle after delicious chocolate truffle into my copious maw, shuffling playlists on my shiny new iPod Photo, flipping through next month's Paris Vogue, and contemplating my next chord change when I felt, you know, that little itch on the back of your neck when someone's writing about you on the SSS.

 

And sure enough, there I was, I mean here I am, endless gris for the neverending mill.

 

Where are the Sinatras,Elvis,Beatles of this generation? It's certinly not Brittany

 

The first recorded utterance of "The theater isn't what it used to be" dates back to 50 AD during the reign of the Roman emperor Claudius. Even then, 2000 years ago, a group not unlike us complained that artistic standards had declined.

 

With each successive generation grousing that standards aren't what they used to be, you have to wonder, were standards ever what they used to be? Or is this some sort of cultural stutter, and everyone is doomed to recline in a LazyBoy at some point and mutter "they just don't make 'em like they used ta."

 

Neither Elvis ("you call that music") nor the Beatles ("it's just a fad") were exempt from generational grousing. No doubt the next generation will similarly commisserate that music is doomed now that there's no Brittany or Madonna running around.

 

My point?

 

Music is as doomed today as it ever was, which is to say it is alive and well and thriving. And the aging generation is alive and well and bitching. As it always is and always was and always will be.

 

If anything, with all them oysters out there in the form of readilly accesible music production technology for the masses, there may be even more pearls, more Elvises, Beatles, and Brittanys.

 

- Peace, Love, and Brittanylips

[Angelo Clematide]

-

[Barandine Vondenger]

Originally posted by miroslav:

Right nowits kinda weird, actuallythe music scene.

 

While there is a lot of good music out thereits all so disposablevery little of it seems to have any staying powereven to the young people who are buying most of it.

 

Andit all sounds the sameyear after year

maybe thats why its so disposableand each years new crop kinda pushes last years stuff into rapid obscurity, even though it migh have been good music.

 

I sure miss Motown!

 

Its all become so stagnanttheres good music...but very little of it that is still memorable two years later.

Hey I hardly ever listen to NEW music but there is a LOT of it out there.

If you put a classical piece and a reggae work along with a chicago blues ditty and a texas swing ditty in a box and shake it up a bit you gonne get a new type of "aminal"..

IF you put three cookie cutter pop songs in the same box and shake it for ten years you still gonne' get a cookie cutter song out of it.

I got dragged to a metalshow this past weekend as a fan.

I got in with one of the bands. Um they played last.

three bands. all chunka,chunka metal and the REAL metalheads got bored with it all, it was all the same song done thirty different times by three different bands.

then my budds came on and used samples and smoke and lights and THEATRICS and the same chunka chunka stuff too but they shined where the other cats just bored everyone. I was surprised as I had no idea what to expect. I enjoyed it after all. as did everybody in the club. you should have seen the othre bands hanging on every note and movement.

They got asked back almost immediatly after leaving the stage..

whats my point I don't know.. ahahaha!

oh yeah they MERGED different styles to distill a new mood. they were still hard heavy metalUGH! but they went somewhere new and fresh.

Like when I use a blues riff in a reggae tune or a classical line in a country tune. it makes a new flavor with the same earth tones and rythyms.

 

some people say my songs GROW on em. If they do(and they do) it's cause I use tried and tested rythyms and tones in a formulaic manner but NOT a cookie cutter, same-o same-o, way.

no REAL artiste' would willingly paint the same blue image over and over unless thats ALL he could do.

I have three very neat paintings that I can look at for many minutes over and over and come back the next day or in the next hour and finde something new and wonderful and amazing everytime. it's the same work. nothing has changed, yet I finde something everytime I look.

othre folkes recognize this too. I watch them till they get THAT LOOK and make that small noise.and I know they have seen whatever it is the artist wanted us to see. sometime I get up in the wee hours and turn on a single light and look at my favorite. I Just look at it for long moments to see what the artiste saw as he worked and it gets me every time. .

I try to craft the music the same way. my oldest tunes are just as popular as my newest.(secret listeners PROVED IT )

why?

I SAY cause they CRAFTED from different sources and don't rely on just ONE GENRE as a well to draw forth inspiration and or technique.

I MIGHT be studyin' texas swang and come up with a ska tune and use all the components from both styles as well as use jazz licks I stole from whoever and it'll GROW on you sure as spit.

Whys it sound like BEACH MUSIC? danged iffen I know.. but it sticks and comforts and makes me thank about stuff and goode art does that or so I'm told..

is it goode art?

is it art.

it is if you FEEL IT MOVE..

 

Move the Jams.

[dman]

Neither Elvis ("you call that music") nor the Beatles ("it's just a fad") were exempt from generational grousing. No doubt the next generation will similarly commisserate that music is doomed now that there's no Brittany or Madonna running around.

I understand what your saying but in 100 years who do you think will be represented as significint influence on music, Lennon and Macartney or Britanny?

[philbo_Tangent]

Y'know, there was PLENTY of crap music in the 50s, 60s and 70s. The top 40 was stuffed with it. The sieve of time did it's work, the wheat and the chaff were separated, and today no one remembers the crappy stuff. (They say the brain has a propensity to forget unpleasant experiences )

 

It's no different today. Some very small percentage of the 100 albums/day that now are released will be remembered in 10 or 20 years time, while the remainder will be in yard sales and landfills.

 

While I bemoan the state of the industry a bit because I don't see a lot of interesting music being released, that doesn't mean they aren't out there, it just means I don't have time to go dumpster diving looking for diamonds. And nobody to hold my ankles while I root through it.. (although it's fun to snoop around on places like IUMA.com once in a while).

 

Instead, I'll let the time sieve do it's work, and if it's good, I'll hear about it sooner or later...

[philbo_Tangent]

Originally posted by miroslav:

I've been on a minimalist binge for awhile now...

....having experienced technology overload even going back a few years.

 

And now...I have more gear than ever...BUT...I've learned (learning)...NOT TO USE IT ALL!!!

 

Here's a question...

 

How many of you would be able to reduce your rig down to a couple of mics, pres...one or two FX boxes...and a barebones recording device/medium (tape/disk/whatever you like)...

...and STILL manage to feel comfortable enough to record?

 

No gazillion track DAWs.

No plugins galore on EVERYTHING.

No ability to slice-n-dice every note.

No autocorection.

No loops.

 

scary...ain't it?

 

Boosh...turn all that shit off...

...plug in your guitar...

...hit record...

...and just play.

 

One take...until it's right. No edits.

Sounds like paradise to me! Except for one missing thing:

 

SOMEBODY ELSE to press record, to move mics, to make sure levels are good going in, to write down setups.

 

(If on a DAW)

to make sure the project gets saved after every couple of takes, to set up & name new tracks.

 

(If on tape)

Make sure the transport is degaussed, and heads are aligned & cleaned before the start of the session.

 

It would just be SO NICE to just play & sing!

I guess that's why there are tracking engineers out there, eh?

[Lee Flier]

Originally posted by Brittanylips:

Neither Elvis ("you call that music") nor the Beatles ("it's just a fad") were exempt from generational grousing. No doubt the next generation will similarly commisserate that music is doomed now that there's no Brittany or Madonna running around.

 

My point?

 

Music is as doomed today as it ever was, which is to say it is alive and well and thriving. And the aging generation is alive and well and bitching. As it always is and always was and always will be.

It would be logical to assume that what you say is true... except...

 

- For the first time, record sales are down. Concert attendance is down. Local club attendance is down.

 

- While there used to be a very clear generation gap and kids never listened to "their parents' music," the gap has now narrowed considerably and there are a LOT of kids who enjoy the same music as their parents. Many of them enjoy it more than current releases.

 

- Personally, I'm not bitching about a lack of good current music. It's there - but not in any of the mainstream outlets. And therefore many incredibly talented people can't afford to work in good studios or hire good producers and engineers, so their work suffers. Nor do they have access to decent promotional capital, or even a halfway decent hotel room on the road.

 

Lately I have a feeling kind of akin to being a sports fan and suddenly noticing that all the major league players suck and the superstar players are all in the minors, where their careers are shortened because they're getting paid a pittance and don't have the resources to perform at their best.

 

So I do think there's something deeper going on than "generational grousing." Sure there's always been crap on the radio and in the charts, but at least mixed in amongst the crap you were pretty certain that you were ALSO hearing the best the world had to offer. I don't get that feeling anymore, not even close.

[Anderton]

<>

 

I think one point that has been overlooked is that not as many new records are being released as, say, 10 years ago. I've been a member of NARAS since the mid-70s, and get their Grammy Awards Guide for ordering CDs. It keeps getting thinner, and the only reason it hasn't gotten even thinner is because they've added videos and books. And of the recordings that ARE being released, a lot of them are compilations, re-packagings, greatest hits packages, etc.

 

So it stands to reason if fewer recordings are being released, there are fewer great recordings (as well as, thankfully, fewer truly horrible recordings) being released as well.

[Barandine Vondenger]

Originally posted by philbo_Tangent:

Originally posted by miroslav:

I've been on a minimalist binge for awhile now...

....having experienced technology overload even going back a few years.

 

And now...I have more gear than ever...BUT...I've learned (learning)...NOT TO USE IT ALL!!!

 

Here's a question...

 

How many of you would be able to reduce your rig down to a couple of mics, pres...one or two FX boxes...and a barebones recording device/medium (tape/disk/whatever you like)...

...and STILL manage to feel comfortable enough to record?

 

No gazillion track DAWs.

No plugins galore on EVERYTHING.

No ability to slice-n-dice every note.

No autocorection.

No loops.

 

scary...ain't it?

 

Boosh...turn all that shit off...

...plug in your guitar...

...hit record...

...and just play.

 

One take...until it's right. No edits.

Sounds like paradise to me! Except for one missing thing:

 

SOMEBODY ELSE to press record, to move mics, to make sure levels are good going in, to write down setups.

 

(If on a DAW)

to make sure the project gets saved after every couple of takes, to set up & name new tracks.

 

(If on tape)

Make sure the transport is degaussed, and heads are aligned & cleaned before the start of the session.

 

It would just be SO NICE to just play & sing!

I guess that's why there are tracking engineers out there, eh?

HA!

I have nothing anyway except bare minimum and now I running straight into the compy via a 20 decibal boostaroonie.

I have no one to work mic or place same or name anything. only me. about take fifty three it gets lonesome.

I been working at a new one for seven hours now. veddy lonesome. and no where near done..

I got drums and guitar down and two scratch vocals mostly arranged .

three or four parts left includeing vocals.

then pre final and final. convert and upload.

No one here but me.. .

my muse gets lost sometimes switching between the music and the production and arrangements(doing all the instruments)

it'd be NICE like he said if there were help and support HERE at my crib but it's more in the form of MORAL support out there in web land. which is goode in it's way..

so I struggle and learn. .

it'd be nice if I were king of england.

really nice.. .

[Steve Force]

Originally posted by arellspencer:

[i have no one to work mic or place same or name anything. only me. about take fifty three it gets lonesome.

LOL!!

 

Good one!

[audiofreek]

mp3 and free downloading has devalued all music,even live music.

[Barandine Vondenger]

Originally posted by forceman:

Originally posted by arellspencer:

[i have no one to work mic or place same or name anything. only me. about take fifty three it gets lonesome.

LOL!!

 

Good one!

I mean I DO work the mic by sangin' into it,yet they ain't no body to do anything ceptin' me but why do you lauff at arell?

goode what? joke? I no joke mon'!

fifty three takes for just one ONE guitar part. thats no lie joe!

what iff I have three guitar parts?

How many potential takes is that?

now add bass, keys, and three vocals? how many potential takes is that?

I get kookoo from shrewdly punching buttons and then switching to being ON and trying to keep a fresh perspective all at once.

drudgery from the word go.

The glory comes later when I hear from a not so secret listener.ahahaha!

It would be nice if I had a PHIL IN A BOX and could drag him oot at nine oclock at night when I like to begin recording.

but I have the next best thang which is swedish meatheads like BRICE(thaunkyew) and his ilk and sites like GREG ANDERSONS sound, stage and something, something and also sites like THIS ONE HERE to hep' me improve and be more..

maybe fifteen more hours excluding grill't steak breaks, ahahaha till this one is in de can and on de web, !

so many tunes, so little time..

so many stinky dives. I get to play out in one this weekend. veddy stinky but it makes up for it by being dusty....

somehow "they" were able to place an entire building smack dab in a mud puddle.

dang buttons..

[dman]

Lee Said

 

- Personally, I'm not bitching about a lack of good current music. It's there - but not in any of the mainstream outlets. And therefore many incredibly talented people can't afford to work in good studios or hire good producers and engineers, so their work suffers. Nor do they have access to decent promotional capital, or even a halfway decent hotel room on the room.

 

Lately I have a feeling kind of akin to being a sports fan and suddenly noticing that all the major league players suck and the superstar players are all in the minors, where their careers are shortened because they're getting paid a pittance and don't have the resources to perform at their best.

 

So I do think there's something deeper going on than "generational grousing." Sure there's always been crap on the radio and in the charts, but at least mixed in amongst the crap you were pretty certain that you were ALSO hearing the best the world had to offer. I don't get that feeling anymore, not even close.

Nothing to add except Lee you nailed it

[Bruce Swedien]

You people are great! Some excellent thought coming through!

 

OK look out - I'm going to get a bit wordy again! I'm going to try and steer you towards the real deal!

 

Here's what I think.......

 

I think that in the human psyche there is a natural desire for music. I guess I could say that I think that music is organic in the human animal. By that I mean that if we look back to mans' earliest musical attempts',(In Africa, for instance) music was an imitation of nature.(Bird calls, etc.) African rhythms, for instance, are a perfect illustration. They can be earthy and simple, or complex and involved. They definiltely come from the 'soul'.

 

A good illustration of this same line of thought is that a few years back the almost over-night success of video games made a serious dent in the 'Pop' music record industry. The entrance of Video games, like "Dungeons & Dragons", was concurrent with a period of sloppy and lazy record production by many recording artists. For example; an artist would go into the studio and luck into a 'hit' album or single. That artist would then get very complacent and go into the studio and record virtually any old thing that came to mind. On top of that, the record labels were stupid enough to release these records. I think that is basically true today, too!

 

Many gloom-dooming folks, and so-called moguls said that 'Pop' music was through, finished.

 

The most important fact is that remains through all of this. is that music is basically organic in the human species. So when pop music makers got their act together, and came back with some significantly better product, pop music came back bigger and better than ever.

 

I also think that 'Thriller' played a big part in that resurgence. I was a lucky dude in that I was there through the wole thing!

 

The intense interest in 'Thriller' got people going back to the record stores. They not only bought "Thriller" but many other GOOD records as well. In a few short months it was the video games that held a mere shadow of their former interest.

 

I think it is our function, or perhaps a better word is 'responsibility' in making music, is to present an interesting image of recorded music to the record-buying public. In other words', to create a sound-field that will be an important part of the success,(or lack of same) of the music. I feel that part of the engineers function in making music is to make the music appealing and tasteful. An engineers' ability to create a sound-field that is unique and ear-arresting will help to make the music more entertaining. It is the engineers' unique presentation of the music that he works on, that will be the measure of his ultimate success.

 

In other words, if his, or hers 'sound' or 'sonic personality' is so different from ordinary recordings that his clients can easily recognize that fact, and if he can participate in productions that are widely accepted by the record-buying public, then he will be in constant demand by successful producers.

 

My feeling on this point is that there seems to be two main catagories of music recording engineers. They are:

 

#1- The engineer that approaches his work from purely the technical side.

 

#2- The engineer who approaches his work from mainly the musical side.

 

In my opinion neither of these personalities will ever maximize his/her abilities by limiting his/her thinking to these distinc avenues of practice. The strictly technical personality will be in limited demand because this very approach denies the basic reason for recording music in the first place.

 

The strictly musical approach to recording music will limit the engineers' ability to get the most out of his/her equipment and productions. By not having a thorough knowledge of the techniques, equipment, and their value in musical production, an engineer will not be able to satisfy that element in music recording production that demands innovative trend-setting technique.

 

Here's an axiom that I use daily... "It is much easier to be done than to be satisfied".

 

John Q. Publics listening ability has improved! It seems that the listening ability, or aural acuity, of the record buying public has advanced a great deal in the last decades.

 

To reiterate - In the late 1970's, and the early part of the 1980's, the attention of the record buyers was momentarily side-tracked. Video games became a huge, almost overnight, success. I heard some people say that popular music couldn't possibly survive the attention that the young people were paying to video arcades and home video games.

 

Record sales had been declining by considerable numbers since the middle 1970's. There are several facets to the explanation of that situation. There is not one single reason. There are basically two factors, in my opinion, that were important at that time. The first element is that popular music in the late 1970's, with a few exceptions, had been going downhill in musical quality. Recording artists had become financially fat, artistically lazy and ethically complacent.

 

Many of the recording groups and acts that had had a measure of success at that time were going into the studio with little or no thought or preparation. It seems that, somewhere along the way, our standards had slipped.

 

Many recording artists would put most anything out just to satisfy a recording company contract, or to have a record before the public. Quality and music be damned! It's no wonder that the record stores were frequently empty. As Samuel Goldwyn once said about the movie business, "People were staying away in droves!".

 

Quincy said Weve got to get people back in the Record Stores!

 

Something had to be done to get people to want to go back in the record stores to buy records. I remember Quincy Jones solemnly saying, as we entered the studio to begin work on Michael Jackson's "Thriller" album, "Were here to make people want to go to the Record Stores again!". He was right, of course. I have never, in my life, seen a group of people so dedicated to one project.

 

Starting with Michael, Quincy and myself, everyone involved, at every level on "Thriller" gave at least 110% all day, every single day! It worked! With the phenomenon of Michael Jackson's incredible performances and compositions, and Quincy's impeccable musical taste and direction, all I had to do was use my imagination and paint the widest sonic canvasses of my life.

 

"Thriller" encouraged people to get out of the video arcades and into the record stores and buy records again. In large numbers, as well. Not only did the record buying public go into the record stores to buy "Thriller", but while they were there, they bought other good records as well. I think probably the truth in the explanation, is the fact that music is organic in the human psyche. Music, and the images that it conjurs in the imagination, is the oldest, wildest and richest video game in humanity. Quality music, we found, could be much more important to us than trendy video images and sounds.

 

I think the musical and technical quality, coupled with the incredible musical depth of "Thriller" made it a seminal event in the history of recorded music. We, in the industry, have a tendency to think of success, in popular recorded music, only in terms of units sold and sales grosses. Indeed, the units sold and the legendary sales figures of "Thriller" was ultimately the greatest possible mandate of a music loving public. I am sure, in years to come, historians will say that "Thriller" was definitely as big or bigger a success musically and artistically, as it was financially.

 

I think it all boils down to this - You have to do something that gives you goose bumps, you have to say, Yea man, that really turns me on... Because if you get turned on, alot, youve got a good chance of somebody else getting turned on."

 

Enough!

 

"Happy New Year Everyone!" -

 

Great love and great music to all!!!

 

Bruce Swedien

[1970]

The ear doesn't like a perfect sound. That's why we like to add so many mechanical or digital fx to the original sound.

They just make it SURREAL, instead of realistic.

[Bruce Swedien]

All American Idiot.....

 

Very interesting!

 

I would hate to be the first person to record a perfect record, or to record the perfect sound!

 

I would simply love to record records that people love to play over and over!

 

I would simply love to record records that make people smile!

 

I would simply love to record records that make people dance!

 

Those are very lofty ambitions!

 

Brucie the Viking!

[KenElevenShadows]

Originally posted by miroslav:

Here's a question...

 

How many of you would be able to reduce your rig down to a couple of mics, pres...one or two FX boxes...and a barebones recording device/medium (tape/disk/whatever you like)...

...and STILL manage to feel comfortable enough to record?

 

No gazillion track DAWs.

No plugins galore on EVERYTHING.

No ability to slice-n-dice every note.

No autocorection.

No loops.

Yeah, that's how I like to record!

[Tedly Nightshade]

We can't talk about Thriller without talking about the incredible hype explosion that launched it. I've never seen anything like it. And seen is the word- it had everything to do with the videos and posters in record stores and all that. Maybe it was all the hype that led me to think of it as pretty dang thin. But these days Billie Jean seems like a complete classic, even practically a standard. And it's not the performance or recording, which seem really dated and overproduced. It's just a really good song, with a nice bass part.

 

At the time I was pretty deep into Prince and me and my friends felt strongly that Prince was a real visionary talent, whereas Mickey J could look pretty fab when backed up with an all star cast, a hundred dancers, a billion dollars worth of video, and Eddie Van Halen. But you know I wasn't there? I never have seen Mickey J perform, so I suppose I really don't know. His next album seemed to prove the point, but I don't have a perspective on it like you do, Bruce. I do know that when I saw Prince do Raspberry Beret on solo piano, and totally got it all, never having heard the song before, that I knew I was witnessing The Real Thing.

 

I can see though, that the reason that big hype could take for Mickey J was that the goods advertised were indeed the goods. It was a really enjoyable record with damn little filler (if you don't count a lot of extraneous overdubs!).

 

But as far as The Real Thing goes, sign me up for Ellington! Usually I'm the one (but the kid is not my son who carves that magic name as deep into these boards as I can manage- to actually hear that band live and in person- I can just about imagine it, almost, but basically I remain completely deprived forever because I have not. Nothing could possibly make up for that deprivation, but we try.

 

I'm a hard-core purist freak of a recordist who is trying to integrate that second microphone in a way that competes with my best one-mic stuff. It sure as hell ain't easy! I haven't done an overdub in years. I plan to do some overdubs some day though. But for my life there is absolutely nothing that can touch real music really happening all at once in the same room. Ellington convinced me of that, and thoroughly. And just off a recording! But a great recording.

 

Now as for Craig's initial question here, I simply answer that actual music in the actual air in an actual room is basically infinitely complex and detailed, pretty much what Lee said. Room mics for delays are alright, and can be really cool, but the sonic cost of mixing ANYTHING together is quite high- so much better to place the instruments and mics in a suitable room (the hard part) where the delays are room reflections of suitable length for the effect, picked up on the same mic(s) as the instrument. Mic placement is really, really different from EQ- with mic placement, you can pick up a whole different signal, with EQ you can only manipulate what you got already.

 

As for tape and digital, I just blew quite a bit of dough doing an experiment. We used two mics to record everything live and split the signal after the pres. We sent the signal to the SLAM! converters and hence to PT, and also to an ATR 1" 2 track at 15 ips with some kind of trick EAR tube electronics. We recorded 9 reels of tape that way, quite a few different instrumental arrangements, heavy on percussion and usually with vocals.

 

We tried some new Genex converters vs. the SLAM!, and they weren't even in the running. If the Genex converters were all we had to record to, I would have packed up and gone home. But the SLAM! vs. 1" 2 track was not a simple contest by any means- it really depended on the song and the mix to pick a winner. Ultimately, we decided it just is not worth the trouble and expense of recording to tape for our purist thing there in the room when we have converters like those in the SLAM!, but having both digital and tape versions to pick from, we will be using some songs straight to digital and some off of tape and then back to the SLAM!. The apparency of loudness on the tape stuff is one reason, and for some reason the tape seems to be more forgiving of some mixes to the mics with too much Leslie bass. The loudness thing comes in because we have both all-acoustic tracks and tracks with organ and drums, and the organ and drums stuff ought to seem bigger and louder than the acoustic guitar stuff to all fit together as an album, and it saves on limiting degradation in mastering.

 

It's been interesting to note that the mastering that works best for most of these tracks (except the couple tracked with too much bass) involves no EQ at all and just a bit of upward compression. Truly, truly, every bit of processing trashes the sound worse and worse, and if you can track it so you need next to none it will sound way, way better. The 1" 2 track is pretty dang benign, but the vocals definitely sound more human straight to the SLAM!.

 

Anyway, this is a great thread indeed. Living in a really silent place amongst the deer and birds and foxes, playing almost entirely acoustic unamplified music (we make an exception for Leslies), and listening to the best of those great old Ellington records have done a lot to restore my hearing and shape my aesthetics- I recommend them all heartily!

[Dan South]

Originally posted by philbo_Tangent:

Y'know, there was PLENTY of crap music in the 50s, 60s and 70s. The top 40 was stuffed with it. The sieve of time did it's work, the wheat and the chaff were separated, and today no one remembers the crappy stuff. (They say the brain has a propensity to forget unpleasant experiences )

 

It's no different today. Some very small percentage of the 100 albums/day that now are released will be remembered in 10 or 20 years time, while the remainder will be in yard sales and landfills.

 

While I bemoan the state of the industry a bit because I don't see a lot of interesting music being released, that doesn't mean they aren't out there, it just means I don't have time to go dumpster diving looking for diamonds. And nobody to hold my ankles while I root through it.. (although it's fun to snoop around on places like IUMA.com once in a while).

 

Instead, I'll let the time sieve do it's work, and if it's good, I'll hear about it sooner or later...

Absolutely!

 

Mark Twain said that he would never read a book unless it was at least a year old. That's a good hype filter. Perhaps we should employ it with recordings.

 

VH-1 ran a show last night called the 40 worst number one hits of all time. There were a lot of turkeys, but they were all from the video era. I can remember many more from the 70's. Crap has always been with us and always will.

 

As for today, I hear good music all the time. I don't know what it is, because the ^&*%#! radio stations never tell you anymore, but it's there.

 

But, as someone said, eighty percent of everything is crap. Plus, I've come to realize that the number one recreational activity of humans is to belittle things. That's a powerful one-two negative punch, so don't be surprised if you're more likely to get an earfull of what's wrong with today's music than an account of what's really happening.

[KenElevenShadows]

Originally posted by 1970:

The ear doesn't like a perfect sound. That's why we like to add so many mechanical or digital fx to the original sound.

They just make it SURREAL, instead of realistic.

In the discussion of mechanical vs. electronic, I believe our ears like the subtle infinite variances of mechanical devices, which more actively engage our subconscious.

 

So is a "perfect sound" something that has constantly predictable patterns? It's actually an "imperfect sound" by that definition since it's not matching the complexity of something that is mechanical (if indeed, that is what it is modeled to do).

 

And it would seem to me that an effort to capture "realism" would in fact include that "imperfect sound".

 

I just know that when I am recording, I want to capture the whole artistry and emotion of the sounds or music, and whatever interferes with that is something I want to remove.

 

That doesn't necessarily mean equipment, either. Sure, it can mean getting rid of a horrible A/D converter or a bad plug-in, but I also mean building a rapport with the equipment that I am using so that it becomes second nature and I don't have to think about HOW to do something - I just do it.

[Bruce Swedien]

YOU FOLKS ARE ABSOLUTELY GREAT!

 

I love your direction in this forum now. You are all heading towards the main source - the MUSIC!!! You make me very happy!

 

I take the music that I am involved in very personally. I guess thats primarily because I think that music voices feelings. I think that for eons, music has articulated very personal feelings to whole groups of people.

 

I was discussing this very thing in the control room with a couple of musician friends, one day a few years ago. All three of us felt pretty much the same way, but with varying degrees of intensity. As we were talking I realized that I could almost give up food easier than it would be for me to give up recording music. For those that really know me that is saying a great deal.

 

There is almost nothing else in my life as important to me as recording music. I love to listen to live music, but to me the real central interest of my being is in creating superb recorded music that communicates to the listener. In short, I love what I do. You've probably figured that out by now. I want you all to have hope....

 

For one thing there have nay-sayers amoungst us forever. Don't ever think that the disastrous state of the music business right now is something new!

 

With the arrival of the phonograph, the doomsters said that music would be dead in a year! What really happened - THE DOOMSTERS ALL DIED!

 

If the coming of the phonograph record killed off live bands by the dozens, it also provided the economic bait to start dozens and eventually hundreds of recording companies and facilities all over the world. These recording enterprises give employment to bands, musicians, singers and composers, and in addition give musicians a creative release that otherwise would not have been there.

 

Would you folks like to be different? Here's a couple of ways to be different from most of the do-dos that think they are making records today....

 

I think that an individuals knowledge of how music should sound is a big factor in how he perceives music and sound in the first place. A person with good perception of sound will often be heard to make the comment, of a recording or a performance, that it does, or doesn't, sound "Musical". Such a critique of sound indicates a knowledge of the sound of traditionally accepted forms of musical expression. This can apply to both live performance critical listening, and music reproducing equipment specifications and performance. This perception ability, I think, is a form of musicianship on the part of the listener. We hear with our ears, but we listen to, or evaluate, the sound of music with our experiences.

 

Preference, to me, is more a matter of musical taste, and of musical "Open-mindedness". Continued contact, by choice, with a particular style of music, will precipitate a preference, in most people, for that particular style of music. Continued contact, by choice, with a certain type of sound equipment will precipitate a preference, in most people, for that particular sound system.

 

A famous symphony orchestra conductor once said "People don't know what they like, they like what they know".

 

The importance of sound, and even music style, to an individual, does not lie in any inherent accoustic or technical characteristic, but in what it signifies to the soul of the listener. I know I've said that to you before, I just want to make sure you have it!

 

Brucie the Viking!

[Tedly Nightshade]

I long for the days before music recording! I'd love to go play some live music for people who had a real hunger for it, people not deluged in recorded music all day long every day. Live music is dying- so much culture has been lost. To the extent that recorded music lets us know what happened live, culture can be preserved, in a way- but only to that extent. There's a lot of disinformation about how music is made out there- everything from Rolling Stone magazine to umpteen track recordings.

 

Communication is indeed what it's all about! I just had 5 very good mastering engineers master the same song. It was amazing and alarming to find that communication seemed to be the priority in only one result. So many concerns about competing, about sonics, but the way to compete is to communicate. If you can reach the listener with the song, you win. Only, that's a whole hell of a lot harder to do that most folks seem to think! It's got to happen at every step of the process, from writing the song to performing it to tracking it to mixing it to mastering it. Even a simple sample rate conversion can bollux it beyond belief- or it can really help. Communication!

[Anderton]

Bruce, you would have loved an experiment we did here on SSS a couple years ago. I was writing a book called "Cubase SX Mixing and Mastering," and the forum had been talking about doing some collaborations. To make a long story short, an SSSer named George Toledo was both brave AND cool enough to let the raw tracks for one of his songs into our collective hands. No one heard how HE mixed the song, and the tracks were mostly unprocessed -- warts and all.

 

About 25 people ended up participating in doing a mix of the tune. What was interesting to me was that despite the fact that the mixes were WILDLY different, and the song sounded completely different with each mix, the impact and emotional focus of the song made it through each time. What it really ended up proving was that the mix was pretty much irrelevant with a song that had already "nailed" the emotional component.