Joe Hanna Posted December 26, 2004 Share Posted December 26, 2004 Well now hold on there professors...... Please take this in the good natured spirit it is intended but this thread is a little like the kettle calling the pot black. I've seen some pretty inane discussions on this board. The endless argument about Pro Tools vs Logic vs DP. Sample Rate debates and on and on it goes. No doubt some of these discussions are just in fun and in the end that's what these forums are all about (I hope). But the fuel behind high end audiophile guys and gals doing ridiculous stuff is the same fuel that gets you guys and gals chirpin about how much better your clock is than mine which mic pre to use ect, ect. Curiously it seems we all need to feel we're a bit more savvy than the next guy and we all like to boast and protect our purchase choices. Really....How on earth could anyone make an argument that one application is better than another. In truth they ALL exceed most users capabilities. Yes of course one does midi better than another and one does editing better but in reality they are all fantastic. Any argument is nit picking. It often seems those individuals that really can max out an application are usually the personality types that don't feel the need to jump into these discussions. Some one sitting in their living room listening to how their stereo sounds with new Dieter Ennemosser bakelite knobs is no more far fetched than someone sitting in their "basement studio" recording into a M149 at 192k. Just my 2 cents! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tedster Posted December 26, 2004 Share Posted December 26, 2004 I'm with Joe on a lot of this...even though I might be guilty... I see a lot of this in everything, what I'll call "Emperor's New Clothes" syndrome...and no matter what your gear is, some gear snobs will debate which is preferable, when they're talking about differences only dogs and bats could possibly hear. "Cisco Kid, was a friend of mine" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Flier Posted December 26, 2004 Share Posted December 26, 2004 I don't think so Joe (and Ted)... first of all there is absolutely NO scientific basis for thinking these knobs will make ANY difference in the sound quality, even to a dog or bat. And nothing at ALL (not even "subjective nonscientific curiosity") to justify their insane price tag. At least high-dollar recording gear has hard specs to justify the money spent. And there is a definite audible difference between a $500 mic or preamp and a $3000+ one. Not that the $500 one doesn't have its uses, but I'm not going to pretend that a Rode mic is an M149. Not even in my basement. I agree there's a point at which the debate becomes ridiculous and irrelevant, but there are plenty of ways to spend money on gear where the differences are not subtle, too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tedster Posted December 26, 2004 Share Posted December 26, 2004 Originally posted by Lee Flier: I agree there's a point at which the debate becomes ridiculous and irrelevant,Precisely my point... a $7500 CD player! HA! Personally, I'd say that that is beyond that point. And that's what I'm talking about. "Cisco Kid, was a friend of mine" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angelo Clematide Posted December 26, 2004 Share Posted December 26, 2004 Esoteric, isn't it no specs, no Ohm/km, no slew rate, no nothing just believe and it starts to exist and you levitate and a kiss to Lee -Peace, Love, and Potahhhhto Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djwayne Posted December 26, 2004 Share Posted December 26, 2004 You need this !!! It's a dvd re-winder !! http://sc.groups.msn.com/tn/2B/D2/djwayneswebsite/2/17.jpg Living' in the shadow, of someone else's dream.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angelo Clematide Posted December 26, 2004 Share Posted December 26, 2004 if it can play DVD backwards too, then i need it! -Peace, Love, and Potahhhhto Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philip OKeefe Posted December 26, 2004 Share Posted December 26, 2004 I've got to agree (as usual) with Lee's comments. Yes, we studio folks argue / discuss the merits of gear, and some of the arguments made are pretty silly, but there is much more emphasis made on quantifiable and measureable specifications and science to back things up in the pro audio community than in audiophileland. While I agree that specs can not tell you the entire story, they CAN frequently tell you something - and beyond that point, it is certainly a matter of personal preferences and quite subjective. But we engineering types are much more likely to discuss slew rate, THD, S/N ratios and other quantifiable and measureable specifications than the audiophile community. But Joe, you're correct in one respect - audiophiles are not the only ones who fall prey to "snake oil salespersons" - it does happen in the PA community too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FoxTick Posted December 27, 2004 Share Posted December 27, 2004 Originally posted by Joe Hanna: Some one sitting in their living room listening to how their stereo sounds with new Dieter Ennemosser bakelite knobs is no more far fetched than someone sitting in their "basement studio" recording into a M149 at 192k. Unfair comaprison. The source and sample rate have way more effect on the sound than something that isn't even IN the signal chain to begin with...in this case a knob. I can see myself purchasing an M149 for its sonic qualities, but nothing, I MEAN NOTHING! is going to steer me towards dropping $500 for a single wooden knob. That is rediculous! even if I could afford to waste money on such an item, I still wouldn't buy it out of sheer principal. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy a good high-end McIntosh/Krell/Mark Levinson/Arcam/whathaveyou sound system, but all the other BS that comes along with being an 'audiophile' can stay at the botique stores. I stick to my guns when I doubt the fact that $500 wooden knobs make as much of a sonic difference to justify paying that much for something I can buy for under $10. There are way too many other variables that can affect sound that IMHO cannot be overcome by $500 knobs. Sorry, but the way I see it, I still think that these guys selling these wooden knobs are as full of shit as a christmas goose. 0096 2251 2110 8105 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sign Posted December 27, 2004 Share Posted December 27, 2004 Well, I have a discussion on a Dutch hifi forum about the subject. People believe in powercords that cost 1300 euro and they do hear a dramatic improvement in sound quality. So I asked them to do an AB test in my place, no reaction so far. There's a CD demagnetizer available for 340. All you have to do is put your CD in the small box, push the button and the CD will sound much better. There's a Dutch reviewer who has done a test on the Benchmark DAC and he was very dissapointed because the DAC has 'problems with long tones', it changes the rhythm of the music (he couldn't tap on the rhythm like he could with his own DAC) and the vocalist who was in front of the piano was now inside of the piano. People are installing extra power cables from the road to their house in order to have a group apart for their stereo set and suddenly the highs are more tight, the mids more detailed and there's less low end, but much more tight and this is probably because the cable is shielded. In the Netherlands it's prohibited to use a cable underground that's not shielded (earth on the outside of the cable) but they (the audiophiles) think the shield has another purpose. And the list goes on and on. The alchemy of the masters moving molecules of air, we capture by moving particles of iron, so that the poetry of the ancients will echo into the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philip OKeefe Posted December 27, 2004 Share Posted December 27, 2004 Sign, the ultimate "put up or shut up" is the double blind listening test. If someone can't accurately identify something a statistically significant percentage of the time (say, better than 60 - 70% accuracy), then they're not hearing what they say they are hearing and can't accurately identify it. I find audio engineers like such tests, while audiophiles tend to stay away from them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djwayne Posted December 27, 2004 Share Posted December 27, 2004 Well, with my Audiophile 2496 sound card vrs a Sound Blaster Live Value card there was a difference in recording quality. No pops or clicks with the Audiophile, and it sounds better overall too. Those wooden knobs would look cool on a guitar though. Living' in the shadow, of someone else's dream.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angelo Clematide Posted December 27, 2004 Share Posted December 27, 2004 i like audiophile folks, they have the money and are willing to spend it. I wanted to sell a FM ACOUSTIC 800A amp to a audiophile dealer and he said it is to exotic for his clientel and has no name in the audiophile world -Peace, Love, and Potahhhhto Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sign Posted December 27, 2004 Share Posted December 27, 2004 Phil, couldn't agree more with ya. Here's another improvement, it changes the 80hz area, the vocalist comes more upfront, the overall sound becomes more detailed and easy, and the volume gets a little louder. It costs only 39 euro each. Here's an image: http://www.hifi.nl/gfx/blok031_031104.jpg More info: http://www.fastaudio.com/ The alchemy of the masters moving molecules of air, we capture by moving particles of iron, so that the poetry of the ancients will echo into the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djwayne Posted December 27, 2004 Share Posted December 27, 2004 Here's a write up of my $1,000 cd player for dj'ing.........It's a beautiful machine !!!... Denon DN-2000F MK 111 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Denons award-winning DN-2000F dual CD player has long been considered the industry standard by professional DJs. Now with the new Mark 3 version, the third generation of Denons immensely popular DN-2000F features even more reasons for every DJ to own one. Ten-second shock-proof digital memory on each player guards against audible interruptions due to external mechanical shocks such as bumps or other hard vibration, which is especially helpful for the mobile DJ as well as for nightclub-installed applications. Dual jog/shuttle wheels, similar to those found on Denons reference DN-2500F pro DJ CD player, are now provided enabling smooth search and scan. Each hard quarter turn (±90°) of the shuttle wheel is the equivalent to a one-minute jump in either direction, forward or reverse. This is a feature exclusively offered by Denon. The disc tray can be preset to close automatically after 10, 30, 60 and 180 seconds. This feature helps prevent accidental mishaps when one or both disc drawers are inadvertently left open for long periods, and improves the players long-term reliability by keeping the tray(s) closed when unused. Furthermore, a special fabric gasket surrounding the tray door opening seals each transport from outside contamination, guarding against smoke and dust from entering the machine, thereby extending the players long term reliability in environmentally-harsh venues, such as smoke-filled night clubs. New, bright and detailed dual fluorescent tube displays give the DJ full indication about disc play status, elapsed and remaining timing, and other important visual information and confirmation. A unique 10-segment countdown bar graph provides a quick at-a-glance visual indication of current position within a playing track. Digital output ports, one for each CD transport, allow the DN-2000F Mark 3 to be used as a digital transport for dubbing and/or editing purposes. For compatibility with the widest range of digital recorders and editing equipment, the DN-2000F Mk 3 is equipped with coaxial digital jacks conforming to the standard SPDIF Coaxial interface. Super fast playback startup (Instant Start) feature-playback starts instantly, in less than one one-hundredth of a second after the PLAY button is pressed. A special Sleep function provides the ability for the user to select a sleep time (10, 20 or 30 minutes), which shuts down the disc rotation motor(s) after a period of inactivity-prolonging the useful life of the player. Playback mode selection buttons have been added, one for single or continuous playback, and another for preset functions. And click buttons give a better feel, improving the tactile response to operator commands. Unlike some of the lesser quality units made with a thin aluminum chassis, at Denon the DN-2000F MK3 housing is all steel, making it virtually impervious to bending from road handling. The DN-2000F Mk 3 also features the approval of UL. In some U.S. states or cities, it is illegal to sell an electronic device without a UL approval. Other notable features include: Adjustable pitch range of ±4% or ±8%; Cue to Music, a feature invented by Denon that eliminates the dead space at the beginning of a track; End of Track Message, which provides a visual warning that a track in play is nearing its end; Frame Search of 1/75th a second (invented by Denon); and a Serial Com Port that allows the player to be externally controlled from a PC or provide timecode to a lighting control system (another Denon-exclusive feature). And thats just the beginning. Stop in and let one of our sales people give you the rest of the guided tour around the Denon DN-2000F Mark 3. And dont forget to bring your credit card, because once you see it, youre going to want it! Technology Solutions for Music Educators Lentine's Music 844 N Main St Akron, OH 44310 800-822-6752 Living' in the shadow, of someone else's dream.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djwayne Posted December 27, 2004 Share Posted December 27, 2004 Ooops, Sorry, I just have the basic 2000F model, not the MKIII, I bought it years ago. It never failed me, in all the times I used it. Built like a tank too, for mobile use. Living' in the shadow, of someone else's dream.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sign Posted December 27, 2004 Share Posted December 27, 2004 Here's another hi end amp, costs only 2000.- http://www.hifi.nl/gfx/47labs01_270504.jpg Here's the inside, watch the first class soldering: http://www.hifi.nl/gfx/47labs08_cl_270504.jpg http://www.hifi.nl/gfx/47Labs_balk_270504.jpg And here's the PSU: http://www.hifi.nl/gfx/47labs06_270504.jpg The sound is awesome they say, a real bargain. The alchemy of the masters moving molecules of air, we capture by moving particles of iron, so that the poetry of the ancients will echo into the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sign Posted December 27, 2004 Share Posted December 27, 2004 Ooops The alchemy of the masters moving molecules of air, we capture by moving particles of iron, so that the poetry of the ancients will echo into the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salyphus Posted December 27, 2004 Share Posted December 27, 2004 When this disc is excited by any external acoustic energy, it will resonate throughout the entire audible spectrum, thus overriding unwanted harmonic distortions and at the same enriching the musical reproduction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Hanna Posted December 27, 2004 Share Posted December 27, 2004 I dunno know Lee... Spec's to justify a purchase??? Let those of us who have not sinned throw the first stone and thankfully so. I might agree there is a definite difference between a five-hundred dollar pre amp and a three thousand dollar pre amp but I'd argue from experience that one's not sonically better than the other. Of course I would be the first to note that one may be noisier than another or any number of various other attributes that differ. But the spec, dollar equation does not equal sonic superiority. I would also make the point that I've sat and worked with some of these young and upcoming engineers in the area and I'd argue their total inability to manage EQ is way more of a sonic road block than any choice of pre-amp's.... $500.00 or $50,000.00. In my little world we all (from time to time) enjoy a lively spirited debate over what's currently hot and what's not. The same positive discussions are what this and other forums are about. Still in all I'll stand by my argument. The same thing that make someone rise up and defend a Les Paul over a Strat or Tubes over a Pod or Chev over Ford is the same thing that makes someone buy a $1500.00 wood knob for their stereo.......ego. Nothing inherently wrong with that. It is what propels most in this industry. There has never been a guitar player ( or bass or keyboard or drummer or vocalist)) that has stood up in front of an audience that wasn't there, in part, because of their ego. Hence the Dieter Ennemosser bakelite knob is born! Sorry folks two days off of work leads to silly forum rants. I'll go back to work now. JH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Posted December 27, 2004 Share Posted December 27, 2004 That's just unbelieveable. I always wanted to come up with some product line that's so expensive that you only sell 8 or 9 pieces a year to the mondo rich. -David http://www.garageband.com/artist/MichaelangelosMuse Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coyote Posted December 27, 2004 Share Posted December 27, 2004 But, but.... I GOTTA have an AC cable wih the world's first, patent pending, Aluminum Particle Shield!!! It's a bargain at $3499.00!!! I used to think I was Libertarian. Until I saw their platform; now I know I'm no more Libertarian than I am RepubliCrat or neoCON or Liberal or Socialist. This ain't no track meet; this is football. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daddyelmis Posted December 27, 2004 Share Posted December 27, 2004 What that knob site didn't address is what happens when a human TOUCHES the knob -- doesn't the infection of human skin oil, dirt, skin cells, etc., affect the benefit of the knob's finish? Do you have to wear "document archiving gloves" to turn the knob? How often do you have to dust it? And with what? OMG . . . there is no end. www.ruleradio.com "Fame is like death: We will never know what it looks like until we've reached the other side. Then it will be impossible to describe and no one will believe you if you try." - Sloane Crosley, Village Voice Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sign Posted December 27, 2004 Share Posted December 27, 2004 Here's an article in Dutch, but look at the images. 2.5 meter speakercable; 7776. Interlink 1 meter 3300. http://www.hifi.nl/recensies2.php?id=1989 The alchemy of the masters moving molecules of air, we capture by moving particles of iron, so that the poetry of the ancients will echo into the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djwayne Posted December 27, 2004 Share Posted December 27, 2004 Let me guess, unbleached cotton towel ?? only $1,299 ???? Living' in the shadow, of someone else's dream.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wraub Posted December 27, 2004 Share Posted December 27, 2004 Originally posted by sign: There's a CD demagnetizer available for 340. All you have to do is put your CD in the small box, push the button and the CD will sound much better. Uhh, excuse me, but aren't CDs plastic and aluminum? What's holding a magnetic charge strong enough to affect the sound? Just curious... Peace, wraub I'm a lot more like I am now than I was when I got here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griffinator Posted December 27, 2004 Share Posted December 27, 2004 Originally posted by Philip O'Keefe: Sign, the ultimate "put up or shut up" is the double blind listening test. If someone can't accurately identify something a statistically significant percentage of the time (say, better than 60 - 70% accuracy), then they're not hearing what they say they are hearing and can't accurately identify it. I find audio engineers like such tests, while audiophiles tend to stay away from them. I have a theory on this one, Phil. The human ear is very prone to listening fatigue. I submit that double-blind A/B/X exploits that listening fatigue to the point where the ear begins to compensate for subtle differences between auditory input, and therefore becomes unable to distinguish over repeated tests. In July, I sojourned to Klipsch HQ in Indianapolis for a little get-together and a tour of the plant. They had a double-blind A/B/X test set up to "prove" that no one could tell the difference between expensive speaker wire and ordinary zip cord of the same gauge. I took the test. Nailed the first 5, got 4 of the next 5, 2 of the third 5, and 2 of the fourth 5. Total 13 correct choices out of 20 (correctly identifying X as either A or B) Statistically, this is not a significant difference over guessing - but look at the pattern. The compensation of ear fatigue reared its ugly head over the course of the thirty minute test, and by the end I was unable to distinguish between the two sources, despite the fact that I was able to nail them 9 out of my first 10 tries. An A/B/X can certainly reveal some things, but long, drawn out A/B/X tests that involve repetitive listening just prove that ear fatigue is a real problem that can assault the most sensitive ears out there. A bunch of loud, obnoxious music I USED to make with friends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sign Posted December 27, 2004 Share Posted December 27, 2004 Originally posted by wraub: Originally posted by sign: There's a CD demagnetizer available for 340. All you have to do is put your CD in the small box, push the button and the CD will sound much better. Uhh, excuse me, but aren't CDs plastic and aluminum? What's holding a magnetic charge strong enough to affect the sound? Just curious... Peace, wraubYeah, curious innit? http://svalanderaudio.com/furutech/rd_2eng.php The alchemy of the masters moving molecules of air, we capture by moving particles of iron, so that the poetry of the ancients will echo into the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anderton Posted December 27, 2004 Author Share Posted December 27, 2004 <> The difference is that in these "spirited discussions," no one is trying to sell something to anyone else. With the knob thing, there are two options: Either these people know it's a scam and they're ripping people off, or they truly believe it makes a difference and will benefit people's sound. In either case, though, they're trying to sell something, not just discuss "knobness." Craig Anderton Educational site: http://www.craiganderton.org Music: http://www.youtube.com/thecraiganderton Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/craig_anderton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angelo Clematide Posted December 28, 2004 Share Posted December 28, 2004 here some ultimate cables with no "the church of esoteric" specs: http://www.fmacoustics.com/c_dom_speakercables.html but don't buy it unless you have at least a Krell of FM ACOUSTIC amp and then you also would need some speaker who can open that last curtain. By the way, i spray this "C37" into my ear now and oh wonder, i hear like a young pinocchio again. -Peace, Love, and Potahhhhto Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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