daddyelmis Posted December 21, 2004 Share Posted December 21, 2004 Wanted to share my glorious experience (if you love very long hot showers): Had a tankless water heater installed in my 2-story house in July to replace my old electric, tank-style water heater. FANTASTIC. It's a Rinnai and puts out just under 8.5 gal/minute at 120 deg F (so long as the inbound water is at least 55 deg, which for NC where I live is no problem). This unit has the highest output of any brand (for these things, the key measures are gal/min output for a given temperature rise -- i.e., the difference between the inbound water temp and the output temp or how much the heater has to heat the water). Basically, I never run out of hot water (or, rather, I run out of hot water when the city runs out of water). In addition, I can run at least 2 faucets in the house simultaneously (bath + shower, 2 showers, shower + clothes washer, etc.) and have infinite hot water (limited only by the city's water supply) -- the limit is about 8 gal/min total (so with a water saving showerhead at 2.5 gpm you could run 3 showers at one time). The model I bought is natural gas fired, and based on my electric and NG costs, it will pay for itself in under 3 years. This thing is the size of a small suitcase. Mine is mounted to the wall of my crawlspace, very near where the former electric tank heater was. If I had closet space where a vent could easily have been installed (b/c it burns NG), it could have been put inside the house easily. These are somewhat pricey (compared to say an 75 gal NG tank heater, about 2x, plus installation), but are HUGELY efficient becuase they only heat on demand, not keeping 80 gallons of water hot 24/7 regardless of whether you need it now or not. Tankless heaters have been used for decades in Japan and Europe, but typically small units at point of use. Apparently only relatively recently has the technology gotten to where you can use one tankless heater for an entire house. Anyway, thought I'd share this info for anyone looking at replacing their water heater. www.ruleradio.com "Fame is like death: We will never know what it looks like until we've reached the other side. Then it will be impossible to describe and no one will believe you if you try." - Sloane Crosley, Village Voice Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Leites Posted December 21, 2004 Share Posted December 21, 2004 Do they self-destruct like tank heaters when the sacrificial anode is shot? My Web Site - Tunes - Pictures - Guitar Projects - Native American Style Flute Projects - Hard Rock Cafe Guitar Pins My Eclectic YouTube Channel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coyote Posted December 21, 2004 Share Posted December 21, 2004 I did somehin similar a coupl years ago when my water heater began leaking. One of the best home improvements I've ever done! It was a tankless job, but somebody had to do it.... I used to think I was Libertarian. Until I saw their platform; now I know I'm no more Libertarian than I am RepubliCrat or neoCON or Liberal or Socialist. This ain't no track meet; this is football. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Botch. Posted December 21, 2004 Share Posted December 21, 2004 Originally posted by daddyelmis: Tankless heaters have been used for decades in Japan and Europe, but typically small units at point of use. Apparently only relatively recently has the technology gotten to where you can use one tankless heater for an entire house. The cool feature about the "point-of-use" units is you could program the water temperature, i.e. no more adjusting the water temperature, just turn it on. Does one heater for the entire house allow you to do that? Doesn't sound like it would. They are what I plan to go to when my water heater craps out, which should be soon. Botch "Eccentric language often is symptomatic of peculiar thinking" - George Will www.puddlestone.net Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daddyelmis Posted December 21, 2004 Author Share Posted December 21, 2004 There's a wired remote that looks like a digital thermostat for the HVAC where you set the output temp up to a max of 120 deg F (there is an optional remote that will let you go to 140 deg). The point of use units are attractive because they are small and pretty inexpensive; however, for showers/bath and laundry getting at the plumbing to install the device would be expensive (removing sheet rock) and for a NG heater, venting would get very cumbersome. So, you can set it to whatever temp you want. Since it heats on demand, the newly set temp is effective immediately. At 120, though, you're hot enough for showers without risk of severe scalding (typical "hot" shower is about 95 to 110 deg). The dishwasher preheats water anyway for its wash/rinse cycle. I've thought of the upgraded remote to we could go to 140 for laundry -- but I'd be afraid that we'd forget to lower it when the kids shower/bathe. www.ruleradio.com "Fame is like death: We will never know what it looks like until we've reached the other side. Then it will be impossible to describe and no one will believe you if you try." - Sloane Crosley, Village Voice Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philip OKeefe Posted December 21, 2004 Share Posted December 21, 2004 I'll probably need to replace my gas water heater in the next year or two... can you fine folks give me a ballpark on the prices of old fashoned water heaters vs these new ones? Do they work in a similar fashon to a point of use unit like an "Insta-Hot"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Sayers Posted December 21, 2004 Share Posted December 21, 2004 we've had those systems for years. I had one back in the 70s. We just call them instant hot water systems. cheers john Studio Design Forum Studios Under Construction Home Page Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daddyelmis Posted December 21, 2004 Author Share Posted December 21, 2004 Except this one replaces the "whole house" hot water heater and is not point of use (like those "have a cup of tea instantly" kitchen hot water faucets). That's the big difference to me. I don't think I would have fooled with several point of use heaters. Out the door with all necessary permits and inspections by the gas company, etc., was about $1,800. An 80 gal gas hot water heater from Home Depot, etc., was going to run me about $600-700, but I couldn't install that in my crawlspace, so that meant installing the lovely "Aquahut" outside to house the large tank heater. For me, the actual price difference (assuming I was going to go with a large enough tank heater to supply a water hungry family of 4) was about $500. Over the life of the unit, this was peanuts and the tankless heater actually pays for itself in NG and electric savings (my electric bill dropped by over a 1/3 since the change, and the NG bill increased negligably). Clearly these things are expensive, but I've already seen the price dropping on some of the Bosch units. Using once of these is really a long term type decision where the savings payoff over 3 years or so. Plus, the unqualified luxury of never running out of hot water -- regardless of how many showers, baths, etc. With my kids, this was the primary factor. www.ruleradio.com "Fame is like death: We will never know what it looks like until we've reached the other side. Then it will be impossible to describe and no one will believe you if you try." - Sloane Crosley, Village Voice Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Sayers Posted December 21, 2004 Share Posted December 21, 2004 Yes - it does the whole house - here a pic of one http://www.rheem.com.au/images/products/871024.jpg cheers john Studio Design Forum Studios Under Construction Home Page Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Flier Posted December 22, 2004 Share Posted December 22, 2004 Yeah, these things are the way to go, for sure. When my water heater goes (which I expect it to soon, it's getting old), assuming I have the cash I'm getting one. Bosch has been making them for awhile and they recently came out with a new model that's more powerful and even easier to install than previous units; these are also about $200 cheaper than the Rinnai. Still not cheap at about $950, but dang... you save a TON of money each year, they last 25+ years as opposed to 10, and you never run out of hot water! Kinda hard not to justify. It used to be that you had to import them, but since Bosch starting making them they're readily available at Home Depot for less money than in years past. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anifa Posted December 22, 2004 Share Posted December 22, 2004 http://img.shopping.com/images1/di/6e/35/32/68/46/3955336c66376e756f56555769614b5077-100x100.jpg I installed a Bosch Aquastar about 4 years ago and it has made all the difference in the world as far as having an endless supply of hot water. I like the compact size and the fact that it doesn't take up any floor space. Another thing is the fact that I never have to worry about a full water tank bursting or the pressure relief valve going bad while spewing water everywhere. A water pipe would have to burst to release water. I'm surprised that you were able to install yours in your crawl space; is it heated? My unit specifically states that it must be installed in an area that never drops below 32 degrees F. Seems that a crawl space could dip down to sub zero temperatures if not heated and the weather got bad. As far as pricing goes; Home Depot sells units starting around the $600.00 mark and upwards to a $1000.00 for DIY'rs. My dad put mine in for me, as he was a building mechanic for TWA for 31 years prior to retirement. I don't know what a plummer would charge, but the unit is well worth the price. I love mine.... You can take the man away from his music, but you can't take the music out of the man. Books by Craig Anderton through Amazon Sweetwater: Bruce Swedien\'s "Make Mine Music" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Flier Posted December 22, 2004 Share Posted December 22, 2004 Originally posted by coyote: It was a tankless job, but somebody had to do it....AGGGHHH that was terrible. I love it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strangerbytheminute Posted December 22, 2004 Share Posted December 22, 2004 My family and I lived on a 40' sailboat for the last 16 years and we had a small 4 gallon "on demand " heater much like the one you have only it was electric. These heaters have been used in the marine market for years... The only gripe I had is that htey's rust out every 3 years.(It wasn't meant to be around that much salt) But they only cost $150 so it wasn't a major setback........ www.strangerbytheminute.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fantasticsound Posted December 22, 2004 Share Posted December 22, 2004 So do they make electric versons of the whole house unit? I don't have natural gas. And where was this thread 3 months ago when I had to replace my 50 gallon tank heater? I'd have to believe this would still use less electricity than a tank heater, but maybe not. It's easiest to find me on Facebook. Neil Bergman Soundclick fntstcsnd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deanmass Posted December 22, 2004 Share Posted December 22, 2004 Have a look here. These sound interesting, but i Michigan, I am betting I'd have to have very careful placement. My water heater is in the basement now in the furnace cubby. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daddyelmis Posted December 22, 2004 Author Share Posted December 22, 2004 the Rinnai apparently will do fine in the crawlspace -- doesn't get below freezing often where I live, and the crawlspace is slightly warmer than outside -- we'll see how the winter goes. I almost bought the Bosch as that one is available lots of places at good prices (check the web). I talked to several HVAC guys who have installed both and they unanimously said go with the Rinnai becuase of the increased output. They said the only complaints they have ever had was because the homeowner wasn't getting the output they had expected. I assume that the "spec'd" output is a best case scenario, and actual will be less. For the past few months we've not notice any loss of hot water pressure when running a bath, shower and the dishwasher. www.ruleradio.com "Fame is like death: We will never know what it looks like until we've reached the other side. Then it will be impossible to describe and no one will believe you if you try." - Sloane Crosley, Village Voice Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coyote Posted December 22, 2004 Share Posted December 22, 2004 Mine's electric. My old water tank was oil-fired... obviously my elctric bill has gone up but not a heckuva lot. The payoff: For six months a year I no longer use any oil. I only use it now for home heating. This has given me an easy, direct price comparison. The verdict: Tankless electric hot water is significantly more cost-effective in operation than an oil-fired burner. AND the new equipment cost 1/3 what a new oil-burning water tank would have cost. Originally posted by fantasticsound: So do they make electric versons of the whole house unit? I don't have natural gas. And where was this thread 3 months ago when I had to replace my 50 gallon tank heater? I used to think I was Libertarian. Until I saw their platform; now I know I'm no more Libertarian than I am RepubliCrat or neoCON or Liberal or Socialist. This ain't no track meet; this is football. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Flier Posted December 22, 2004 Share Posted December 22, 2004 Originally posted by daddyelmis: I almost bought the Bosch as that one is available lots of places at good prices (check the web). I talked to several HVAC guys who have installed both and they unanimously said go with the Rinnai becuase of the increased output. They said the only complaints they have ever had was because the homeowner wasn't getting the output they had expected. Well Bosch now has a new model that that is higher output, not quite 8 gpm but I think it's 6.4 gpm. That's plenty enough for most people I would think... unless you have a bunch of kids I don't think it's really necessary to run a shower, washing machine and dishwasher all at the same time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daddyelmis Posted December 22, 2004 Author Share Posted December 22, 2004 No doubt -- if it were just the missus and me, we'd have gone with the Bosch. With the nippers in the house, and being a two story house where the hot water is being pushed from the crawlspace up, I wanted to be sure we didn't have a capacity issue. Over the (hopefully) 20 year life, the few hundred extra for the almost 30% increase in capacity was worth it for me. At the end of the day, it's hard not to go with some sort of tankless heater unless near term cash just won't allow it. You'd think the Feds or the power companies would be pushing these with tax credits or discounts. www.ruleradio.com "Fame is like death: We will never know what it looks like until we've reached the other side. Then it will be impossible to describe and no one will believe you if you try." - Sloane Crosley, Village Voice Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coyote Posted December 22, 2004 Share Posted December 22, 2004 Oh boy - another topic that has to find its ay to SSS Political Party Originally posted by daddyelmis: You'd think the Feds or the power companies would be pushing these with tax credits or discounts. Despite the rhetoric, power companies are NOT generally interested in conservation. They only want it when their production capacity cannot meet demand, otherwise conservation equals a reduction in net profit. And now that the Federal Government is essentially run by the energy industries, you can count on them to refuse to sponsor any programs that spell a decrease in profits for those industries. As always, follow the money. I used to think I was Libertarian. Until I saw their platform; now I know I'm no more Libertarian than I am RepubliCrat or neoCON or Liberal or Socialist. This ain't no track meet; this is football. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Knight Posted December 22, 2004 Share Posted December 22, 2004 This is great. Everybody is excited about a.... water heater. And so am I. What's interesting is why? Being creative type folk, you think we like our comforts a little more than others? I've been looking at these things and planning on a purchase sometime in 2005. Funny heh? I just got a brand new king size bed! Same kinda thing. Gots to be comfortable to put out all this magic! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coyote Posted December 22, 2004 Share Posted December 22, 2004 Originally posted by Lee Knight: Gots to be comfortable to put out all this magic!Said VanGogh, as he whipped out his pocketknife.... I used to think I was Libertarian. Until I saw their platform; now I know I'm no more Libertarian than I am RepubliCrat or neoCON or Liberal or Socialist. This ain't no track meet; this is football. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Knight Posted December 22, 2004 Share Posted December 22, 2004 Originally posted by coyote: Originally posted by Lee Knight: Gots to be comfortable to put out all this magic!Said VanGogh, as he whipped out his pocketknife.... God that paints a picture... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daddyelmis Posted December 22, 2004 Author Share Posted December 22, 2004 Originally posted by coyote: Despite the rhetoric, power companies are NOT generally interested in conservation. They only want it when their production capacity cannot meet demand, otherwise conservation equals a reduction in net profit. And now that the Federal Government is essentially run by the energy industries, you can count on them to refuse to sponsor any programs that spell a decrease in profits for those industries. As always, follow the money.From time to time, the NG companies offer incentives or below market financing to convert to gas (I assume to get market share from the electric company). The real loser here is the city . . . my water consumption has gone up since the hot water don't run out. www.ruleradio.com "Fame is like death: We will never know what it looks like until we've reached the other side. Then it will be impossible to describe and no one will believe you if you try." - Sloane Crosley, Village Voice Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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