So, then, how do bands like "Fastball" hit the charts?

[Hanshananigan]

With all this talk about how cute nobody amateurs are getting the chance to entertain on SNL while real musicians aren't getting the chance, I wonder, how do bands like Fastball make it on the radio?

 

Ok, this post is five years late, but I couldn't immediately come up with a similar band in the charts now. I mean, Fastball's not that cute, screaming 15y/o chicks don't seem to be that interested (I couldn't find any fansites) and although pleasant songsmiths, they're not diva-pop.

 

So instead of telling me again why the likes of Ashlee shouldn't be at the top, could someone tell me how Fastball got there?

[Tedster]

Or Barenaked Ladies, or who was that "Walking on the Sun" and "Hey now, you're an allstar" band, or John Popper, or...

[Duhduh]

Well, I guess every once in a while something good has to poke through!

[Sp3nc3r]

Originally posted by Tedster HoffMunster:

"Walking on the Sun" and "Hey now, you're an allstar" band,

You mean Smash Mouth? They're kinda fluffy. But at least they actually played and sang their own brand of poppy surfer-esque tunes.

 

Cheers!

Spencer

[Tedster]

Yeah...that's right. I had an "Alzheimer moment". I liked their catchy take on stuff...especially their use of the old Farfisa organ sound. I grew up listening to the Doors, the Animals, and a lot of other bands that had that sound.

[GTRBass]

I think the answer is that a legitimate hit comes along every so often where the song(s) is simply too good or too catchy to not get heard. The artist's visual appeal (or lack of) isn't a factor.

 

The Dave Matthews Band was a hit act with long term longevity in spite of what the "Golden ears" morons at the label initially thought. The majors passed on them initially, until the soundscan numbers showed that they were selling records without any help from the shaved apes running the record business. My point is that Dave's not bad looking, but he's not some pretty boy either. They are a multi-ethnic band to boot. To most of the half-witted goofballs running labels that alone is the kiss of death.

 

It's surely a complicated formula whether you're a hit once, or many times over. No matter what it always involves at least one powerful person believing in you (or the song) who can get the ball rolling. The difference between the success of DMB and Fastball's drop from sight may be that the believers didn't make as much money as they hoped and withdrew their support. It's all about dollars.

 

They labels often try to manufacture appeal and will go after the obvious visual appeal over musical talent. Sometimes it doesn't work as well as they hope, and sometimes it does.

 

Corporations care about profit and loss statements, not great art.

 

"Have I ever been in hell? Yes. I was signed to Warner Brothers Records for 8 years." - Frank Zappa

[Michelle ggurl]

Originally posted by Spencer Crewe:

Originally posted by Tedster HoffMunster:

"Walking on the Sun" and "Hey now, you're an allstar" band,

You mean Smash Mouth? They're kinda fluffy. But at least they actually played and sang their own brand of poppy surfer-esque tunes.

 

Cheers!

Spencer

They're very fluffy. You shoulda heard the stuff their main writer/guitarist (Greg Camp) was doing before Smash Mouth. They are local to me, was a schoolmate of mutual friends, and I've heard what he can do. Smash Mouth is not a great forum for his talent, but hey, it's the vehicle that got him out there.

 

Corn is King, people. Lowest Common Denominator is commercially safe.

[songrytr]

Good thread.

 

How do the good song-based artists even make it? I think, for most of the ones mentioned above, the important thing was commercial use of their "hit." Most of them needed that extra exposure because radio just wasn't behind them all that much.

 

I think another thing you'll find they had in common (at the time of their hit) was a real, enthusiastic A&R person with enough clout to get them enough priority to build momentum (you can bet they all were scrutinized thoroughly to make sure they were earning their keep). A good example of this would be the latest from Fountains of Wayne.

 

The third, and most important factor, is that most people will fall in love with a great melody if they get to hear it even a few times.

 

I depend mostly on number three.

 

May I add to the list, Freedy Johnston? Brilliant songwriter and a really, really nice guy. How in the heck did he ever have a hit?

[boosh]

Originally posted by geekgurl:

Originally posted by Spencer Crewe:

Originally posted by Tedster HoffMunster:

"Walking on the Sun" and "Hey now, you're an allstar" band,

You mean Smash Mouth? They're kinda fluffy. But at least they actually played and sang their own brand of poppy surfer-esque tunes.

 

Cheers!

Spencer

They're very fluffy. You shoulda heard the stuff their main writer/guitarist (Greg Camp) was doing before Smash Mouth. They are local to me, was a schoolmate of mutual friends, and I've heard what he can do. Smash Mouth is not a great forum for his talent, but hey, it's the vehicle that got him out there.

 

Corn is King, people. Lowest Common Denominator is commercially safe.

Listen to the song Padrino,..I think it's on Foo yu mang? That's just like a mini opera man! Very great musicianship,..not at all what you expect if you hear their radiostuff.

SmashMouth Rawks!

[Lee Knight]

My wife bought the "Walking On the Sun" Smashmouth CD a couple years ago. I wasn't to interested until I started hearing the other cuts. They are very good. I lot of good ideas... not unlike The Cardigans in that dept.

 

Fountains of Wayne! But where is there follow up hit? The album is fantastic with more than a few great candidates for a follow up, Stacey's Mom was a big hit... and then...

 

???

 

How and why?

[Tedster]

I've been digging a guy who calls himself "Bleu" lately. ExtREEEEMely catchy power pop. Go to www.bleutopia.com and give "I Won't Go Hollywood" a spin.

 

Songrytr...you'll dig this stuff.

[FULLREFUSAL]

These A&R guys are really shooting themselves in the ass here nowadays signing disposable artists who have no longevity. When it's all said and done, it's about an artists Catalog. That is their bred and butter for the future. Who the hell is going to care about Ashlee Simpson's Catalog?..I would say no one and it's not going to be a money maker in the future. The labels are the ones that are causing their own demise. I mean think about it, do you think Elton John, Billy Joel, Bob Seger, Genesis, Yes, or many other classic artists would EVER be signed today? Big Labels and the lawyers and accountants that run them, are doing themselves in. I say fukem.

[Michelle ggurl]

Originally posted by boosh:

Listen to the song Padrino,..I think it's on Foo yu mang? That's just like a mini opera man! Very great musicianship,..not at all what you expect if you hear their radiostuff.

SmashMouth Rawks!

Ah, well, perhaps I need to give some of the "deeper cuts" a chance. Honestly, at this point tho I'm going to have to get past the singer's voice and the band's general sound, because every time I hear those cues it causes in me a negative visceral reaction, you know what I mean? I like Greg's little demo tapes so much better ... guess I'll have to find a way to get over that.

[Michelle ggurl]

Originally posted by FullRefusal.com:

These A&R guys are really shooting themselves in the ass here nowadays signing disposable artists who have no longevity. When it's all said and done, it's about an artists Catalog. That is their bred and butter for the future. Who the hell is going to care about Ashlee Simpson's Catalog?..I would say no one and it's not going to be a money maker in the future. The labels are the ones that are causing their own demise. I mean think about it, do you think Elton John, Billy Joel, Bob Seger, Genesis, Yes, or many other classic artists would EVER be signed today? Big Labels and the lawyers and accountants that run them, are doing themselves in. I say fukem.

I agree. Doesn't it seem like there are a lot of catalog re-releases these days? And a LOT of modern bands doing cover tunes and having that as their only radio-play hit ... what's the point there???

 

We don't have to be geniuses to figure this out given the 1-release/2-year avg. lifespan of most bands today, but I've heard that A&R, in terms of actual artist development, is a thing of the past. No one develops ART; they develop little Brittany Spears and the like, molding them into the pop image they want, then just license songs ... but they don't develop bands. Every band who comes out seems to treated be a tax write-off these days.

 

It seems the chasm between "art" and "entertainment" in music is widening, doesn't it? Either it's about the songs and the artist gets no commercial support (from the Corporate Machine anyway), or it's entirely about the image. This pure-entertainment element has always existed in the music biz, but now it seems the industry is almost exclusively supporting that.

[x factor music]

i may be mistaken, but i recall the drummer from fastball published a book about the band's rise to fame...i think it just came out a couple months ago,....

[songrytr]

Originally posted by x factor music:

i may be mistaken, but i recall the drummer from fastball published a book about the band's rise to fame...i think it just came out a couple months ago,....

It's by Semisonic's drummer, Jacob Slichter...an excellent (but somewhat...um...discouraging) read. You'll take the ride with him from the first EP to the follow-up to "Closing Time" that just didn't get the support.

 

Put it on your holiday list:

 

link

[g.]

I predict the Bitch Slap album will go platinum very quickly. In fact, the "diary" was written just to promote a band by that very name. This will be their first release.

[GTRBass]

Now we're getting into the real issue:

 

Disposable artist vs/ carreer artist

 

1) Labels no longer appear to engage in artist development because of the cost and length of time for return on investment involved.

 

2) The dimwits running the labels think that everyone's attention span is as short as theirs. I tend to disagree. Most of the people I associate with have never been diagnosed with ADD, which is actually now a pre-employment requirement to work for a major label.

 

3) It's now so "hip" to be a Rockstar that every idiot thinks they can pull it off. (Actually they pretty much can.) The Beatles, The Stones, Led Zeppelin, etc, inspired their generation to want to be great players. Today's youth aspire to be in a video partying with Paris Hilton, or "be" Paris Hilton. Instead of a generation striving toward excellence we're building a generation striving toward mediocrity. Music is just one place where it's obvious.

 

Maybe we shouldn't blame the label opportunists entirely. They've always been greedy scumbags. Some of the blame might need to be directed toward the developers of Autotune, Protools, Vocaloid, etc. All these great tools allow a savvy producer make a talentrless idiot sound like an artist. This gives the labels a virtually inexhaustible supply of wanna be dipshits willing to feed their disposable artist rosters. They don't need to sign talent anymore. They just hire a backup band (and a programmer with a laptop) for their marginally talented hotty, and lip synch their way to profits.

 

Blame Simon Cowell and "American Idol" too. You no longer "pay your dues" to become a star. You simply queue up in some lottery line, where an arrogant English Twit, a former lip-synch Queen, and a Bassist/Producer (brought in for "credibility") decide in 30 seconds or less whether you're going to be a star. (look what it did for William Hung!!!) Ohh and don't forget, Grandma and Aunt Bessie Sue can vote for you too. She just needs to spend 50 cents on that 1-900 number.

 

What's the one lesson in all this BS?

Keep it Real.

 

In the film "The song remains the same", Led Zeppelin played live, bad notes and all. Did it kill their career? I heard they didn't do too bad. Together 12 years, and they sold around 150 million records. No autotune, or protools, or lip-synching needed. Just raw talent...and having John Bonham didn't hurt either.

 

I'll step away from the keyboard now. I feel better getting this off my chest...

[TeleCarlos]

It's all a mystery but...

 

I think a great and important factor that has been overlooked is the fact that the majority of people (the "market") have very little taste, appreciation or even time to develop good taste. Just check out what sells the most, Big Macs and pre-packaged, easy to swallow "entertainers" that project just the right image. Now, its all art, don't get me wrong. It's just a different art, the art of "connecting" with with popular culture and what's hip at the time. The art of predicting the next hot "thing" and marketing it correctly. Of course, Good studio workers are required to create a hit record; all those arrangers programmers and songwriters are really good at what they do. Create a catchy soundtrack for this "artist" to entice us with their coolness. And bussiness, don't get me started... that's a whole other art form.

 

Purpose of all this? $$$$ and a littlee bit Thi$$$$

 

I love music. I love the artist that make the music I like.

 

Most good music is not at Wal-Mart by the on sale sign. Good music, like gourmet stuff, must found.

 

Sorry, I'm tired & gotta pee. Anyway, this a topic for in depth discussion with a nice bottle of wine... not a forum.

 

Take care!

[Joe Cole]

Pop music. It has sucked for a long time.

 

There are still artists that are being developed, but mostly outside of the pop arena.

 

Once upon a time, the Beatles were pop, and labels groomed artists.

 

Now a movie comes out and has a shelf life of 3 weeks, then it yesterday's news and ready for release on DVD. The pop music business is the same.

 

Just find your niche, and hope to God it never becomes the flavor of the week.

[Hanshananigan]

Thanks for the great posts so far!

Thanks songrytr & x factor for the book recommendation!

 

Here's what I'm getting out of folks' comments so far:

 

1. record companies (and related industries) want to minimize hassle and expenditure. it is fairly cheap to grab a famous gal's sister, hire a relatively cheap band, get someone to orchestrate a PopSong, and throw her on stage.

 

2. the market is happy enough with, or actually prefers, TeenBop. it's simple, it's catchy, and the kids can relate. (on a side note, I find it's interesting that many 40-somethings here defend LedZep and Eric Clapton and the Beatles, but I wonder if many of them also listened to and liked a lot of BeeGees and Herman's Hermits and Donna Summer back in The Day? I think the cool thing about classic rock (which everyone seems to defend as artistic and good and having integrity) is that it's relevant to young and mature. TeenBop is primarily for the young.)

 

3. the common attributes of non-contrived bands that "make it" are TALENT, HARD WORK and CONNECTIONS. These bands must have one or more of the following attributes:

-be consistent, be committed, and build a fan base over years of touring for themselves, opening for others, and playing festivals (eg, Dave Matthews). you gotta have some kitch (eg, Blues Traveler; Slipknot) or talent to be able to grow a fan base (over years!) and show talent/fanbase/or potential to be invited for big festivals. and it doesn't hurt if you are youngish, have a niche, are charismatic in interviews and on stage, and look good.

-know someone in the biz (eg, Phantom Planet).

-have a fan in the film industry and get on a soundtrack (eg, most of Seattle scene, circa 1991).

-be in an area where you can get scouted.

-have one "good song" and let the right people hear it (eg, Fastball? Lisa Loeb?).

 

4. we all agree record companies/promoters should reduce the percentage of the "InstaStar" bands/divas on the scene and increase exposure of the Fastball/BareNakedLadies/Old 97s/Dave Matthews who the market might like if they heard their songs 3X a day on the radio.

 

Did I miss anything?