Keyboard Gear--Nostalgia and Romanticism and New Technology

[ProfD]

New technology is usually an improvement and more efficient than old technology.  Planned obsolescence is a side effect.

 

There is a period in life that is filled with curiosity, discovery and adventure.  That sense is slowly replaced through an accumulation of experiences.  Over time, the sense of familiarity is most comfortable and leads to contentment. 

 

Vintage gear threads pop up regularly around here.  From electromechanical keyboards to synthesizers and everything in between, gear nostalgia and romanticism is very real.

 

The power of nostalgia and romanticism fuels reissued keyboard gear which in turn 1) excites an older generation and 2) piques the curiosity of younger folks.

 

Nevermind that newer keyboard gear incorporates all of the technology and sounds of yesteryear.  It eliminates the maintenance and repair required to upkeep old gear.

 

Let’s see…

 

The Hammond organ was a 400-pound piece of furniture that required the right transportation and possibly involved a few movers from one gig to the next.  There were also power requirements to accommodate the 60-cycle hum and sometimes Jiffy Lube, er, an oil was involved.

 

No two Rhodes electromechanical keyboards seemed to have the same setup.  Musicians had to carry tuning forks, spare pick-ups and other supplies to work on their keyboard as if it was a Harley Davidson motorcycle.

 

The Mellotron was a tape-based musical instrument with a temperament that required a traveling keyboard technician.  If the tapes were compromised, so much for playing the famous flutes.

 

Analog synthesizers were notorious for tuning issues.  Early synths didn’t have presets either.  Musicians had to memorize their patch settings or keep cheat sheets in the briefcase along with sheet music.

 

Digital synthesizers were able to resolve size and weight, tuning and standardize patch memory and MIDI.  Polyphony and programming were the shortcomings of digital synthesizers.

 

Samplers provided musicians with a better facsimile of any sound required to produce and/or play music.  Pianos, orchestral, percussion and ethnic instruments, electromechanical KBs and synthesizers. 

 

Unfortunately, samplers had dementia or Alzheimer's, er, memory issues.  100 MB disks and SIMM chips cost as much as a 1 TB SSD nowadays.  USB thumb drives with GBs are peanuts in comparison.

 

Yet, musicians usually do not acknowledge the challenges and pitfalls they went through with vintage gear.  They just want the Yamaha [insert KB here} to have a better organ sim or Nord drawbar #7 doesn’t have the footage quite right.

 

Nostalgia and romanticism are closely related and often considered synonymous.  Psychologists would claim that nostalgia can be triggered by many things allowing people to rediscover and/or explore their virtual archives.  It's a drug that comes with getting older.

 

The question becomes what’s missing from new technology that keeps it from satisfying your longing for the feel and sound of [insert vintage KB instrument] here. 

 

Otherwise, we’ll have to chalk nostalgia and romanticism up to rose-colored glasses that makes the old technology seem better or it makes getting older more palatable.  Happy Friday.😁😎

[Stokely]

I've never owned any "furniture level" instruments though my family did have an old spinet that wasn't in great shape.

Nevertheless, I do prefer well-built and even heavier instruments (to a point) even when I'm having to move them to and from gigs.  It has nothing to do with how others feel about it (ie, I don't care if they know I'm playing something cheap) it's definitely something that just appeals to me.   I just like having mostly wood and metal keyboards compared to the all-plastic ones.  I like it when faders, knobs and of course keys feel premium.  Certainly none of these, not even the keys, are requirements   

Sound-wise, not having much experience with real b3s or rhodes or tube amps, or clavs etc....for that matter, I've never owned an all-analog keyboard other than a Moog Rogue--I think the sounds of today are more than fine for me.  They run circles around the stuff I had to use.  My JX-10 was great but my new Fantom has that and 10 times more plus effects.  My Proteus was fantastic for its time but even my "lowly" Modx sounds far better in every way, including it's not-so-great b3 organs  

It is funny to think of disk drives in particular.  I used to have a load a single trumpet sample into our studio's Synclavier via a giant winchester tape, then type in command line commands to get it to load in...it took quite a bit of time and the end result is some tiny little trumpet sample that would be quite underwhelming today!

[ABECK]

1 hour ago, ProfD said:

 

Unfortunately, samplers had dementia or Alzheimer's, er, memory issues.  100 MB disks and SIMM chips cost as much as a 1 TB SSD nowadays.  USB thumb drives with GBs are peanuts in comparison.

 

They also had the tendency to decide not to read discs at the WORST moments.  Building a setlist around the least amount of disc changes was shameful.  I felt shame.

[AROIOS]

2 hours ago, ProfD said:

...The question becomes what’s missing from new technology that keeps it from satisfying your longing for the feel and sound of [insert vintage KB instrument] here. 

 

Otherwise, we’ll have to chalk nostalgia and romanticism up to rose-colored glasses that makes the old technology seem better or it makes getting older more palatable.  Happy Friday.😁😎

It's worth making a distinction among the three common sources of preferences towards certain gear/sound:
 

1) "Nurture". This is the result of exposure to certain gear/sound, especially smart musicians' clever usage of that gear/sound.
 

2) "Nature". This is our species' innate preferences for certain sounds. For example, it's easy to have someone with no prior exposure to violins pick out a "better sounding" copy from a bunch. Although there are certainly deviations among individual preferences, it's not hard to notice statistical patterns. The same phenomena also happen on electric and digital instruments. Certain sounds just tend to attract more people.
 

3) "Contrast". This is when a sound doesn't stand out on its own, but catches our ears when it's tastefully played in contrast to other sounds in an arrangement.
 

Although the line between 1) and 2) often gets blurry, good sound designers like Eric Persing are more in tune with 2) than the average person. It's no coincidence that JVs outsold K2000s by a long margin.
 

Personally, I'm most interested in 3). It's easy to find and program sounds that fall into 1) and 2) these days. But time and again I hear other musicians' clever usage of "dud" patches that I would have overlooked based on first impression. This is a part of the art of arrangement that's rarely discussed enough.

[RABid]

My MultiPoly is due to arrive tomorrow. I got it not because of an attachment to the MonoPoly which I remember trying in a store but never bought, but as a modern take of the MiniMoog. A bit smaller, extra oscillator, will stay in tune, don't have to use osc 3 for an LFO, lots of bells and whistles if I chose to use them.  In fact, a lot of my choices are based on things I owned earlier or wish I owned.

 

Jupiter X - Always wanted a Jupiter 8.

RD-2000 - Much better than the sticky keyed piano that I grew up with.

Hammond XK-3c with extra manual - Replaces the Lawery I grew up with and the Hammond I once drug around on gigs.

MOXD6+ - my replacement for my old DX-7

[Konnector]

What's missing in current gear?  Same thing I always bitch about! Keybeds in general. Number of keys, mini-keys, craptastic action, no aftertouch on synths that should have it by default. These features shouldn't be reserved for only a $$$$ flagship. (I know that's not always the case, but more often than not these days it is.)

 

Do I miss the old analog , non-programmable, heavy schlep days of yesteryear? No. Not one bit.

 

Are there enough choices these days? Absolutely - More than ever. But....(see above.)

 

My gigging days are over now (I think) and VST's have come such a long way that a new hardware synth will have to be pretty special for me to consider at this point. 

[David Emm]

I got yer nostalgia right here! I have a near-reversed form of it, where I click on a track, pick an instrument and just play. Being wistful for a time that's hazy or which never really existed is an easy discard when my modern tools hand me that dream most every day. Let's see, shall I quiver & moan over nostalgia and synths that drifted by a major third without an 8-hour warm-up, or shall I put on modern rose-tinted goggles and put the expression pedal to the metal? 🤔

 

At one time, mega-sounds we now take for granted were only possible with a mega-pile of hyper-pricey pro gear. That often included engineers to get them there. Why would I pine away for such a pipe dream? I now have all of that and more in a box so compact, if there's a fire, I can stuff it down my pants, take off running (okay, energetic waddling) and save my entire musical world. I see myself as very lucky to have laid hands on so many classic instruments, because there's a direct line between that and the Mellotron I now get to play regularly. That part of my mushroom dream has persisted since I saw Tony Banks playing one during the "Lamb Lies Down On Broadway" tour.

[Konnector]

1 hour ago, AROIOS said:

It's no coincidence that JVs outsold K2000s by a long margin.
 

 

Ya...Not to mention the fact that the Kurzweil V.A.S.T. engine gave most people instant brain damage.

[AROIOS]

2 minutes ago, Konnector said:

Ya...Not to mention the fact that the Kurzweil V.A.S.T. engine gave most people instant brain damage.

Exactly why I've been telling folks for decades on their first synth purchase: Buy the sounds, not the features.

Now imagine what K2000 could have been if Kurzweil had Eric Persing.

[David Emm]

39 minutes ago, AROIOS said:

Now imagine what K2000 could have been if Kurzweil had Eric Persing.

 

Not possible. My fevered brain doesn't have the CPU overhead. 

[AROIOS]

1 hour ago, David Emm said:

Not possible. My fevered brain doesn't have the CPU overhead. 

Take it easy over the weekend and get well soon brother.

[Sundown]

Hey PD,

 

My posts about vintage synths are a reflection on a time period and probably have little to do with the actual gear. And in those instances, rarely do I have any real intention or desire to hunt down a D-50, a JX-10, etc. It’s just nostalgia.

 

I have no desire to own a real Hammond, a Rhodes, or even a piano. I love the sound of an eighties Oberheim, but I’m not going to drop four or five-large to get an OB-X8.

 

The truth is, I don’t find modern digital instruments all that appealing either. I think a player starting out could do well with a Fantom EX or a new Kurzweil, but for a home studio guy with a few boards and a lot of software, no new instrument is going to help me finish projects. That’s all I care about right now…  Finishing more projects so I can begin working on new, more interesting stuff.

 

When I do think about gear, I think about buying a Proteus 2000 or a Roland MKS-50. Nobody uses Proteuses anymore so they sound unique, and that era of ROMpler sits wonderfully in a mix. Why an MKS-50? It’s another instrument that does great comp/pad sounds and really comes to life with some reverb or delay. And both of these are cheap …

 

Todd

 

 

 

 

 

 

[ProfD]

30 minutes ago, Sundown said:

My posts about vintage synths are a reflection on a time period and probably have little to do with the actual gear.

The trips down memory lane are cool. I just believe those who weren't *there* should get the full picture. 

 

30 minutes ago, Sundown said:

The truth is, I don’t find modern digital instruments all that appealing either.

It's just another sound source. No need adding it to the toolbox if it's unappealing for any reason.

30 minutes ago, Sundown said:

When I do think about gear, I think about buying a Proteus 2000 or a Roland MKS-50.

Could be cool boxes to explore and re-imagine now.😎

[CEB]

Not sure what we are addressing.  I don't feel nostalgic.  I still have quite a bit of vintage gear because I suck at selling.  The stuff was expensive and used I was only going to get cents on the dollar for some of this stuff so I kept it.  Now its vintage.  I've always kept my live rigs fairly current.

 

New keyboards for the most part suck.  I've said that several times since 2002 or so (whenever I had my 1st UID here).   Made the statement way more often in the more recent years.  When I say 'new keyboards suck', I am talking about the actual keyboard ... the thing we PLAY.  Too many customers are not players so manufacturers cheap out to hit price points.

 

I have a 12 space rack of old synths and I fired it up recently.  I was sort of underwhelmed.  one Kronos with one Fantom sounds better than my rack.  One of the favorite things in the rack was the 2 TX81Zs loaded with identical patches with the 2nd unit detuned by 4 cents.  I can get the same or better results from the Kronos running two layered zones of MOD-7 patch with one zone detuned.  The audio is better quality.  We used the racks because there was little or no multitimbral instruments.

 

Today, audio outputs are more pristine. Instrument emulations are way better.  I'm a hardware live guy but I'm finally interested in computers/tablets so I can use old actions.  Ravenscroft 275 played on the S90XS sounds very appealing right now.

[ProfD]

14 minutes ago, CEB said:

Not sure what we are addressing. 

Sometimes, vintage gear gets praised without acknowledging its shortcomings. 

 

14 minutes ago, CEB said:

New keyboards for the most part suck.

 

When I say that I am talking about the actual keyboard ... the thing we PLAY. 

Right. We may have to spend more money to get the best action available. Better options do exist.😎

[CEB]

Have to spend more?   My main board cost $4k.  😀

 

ps. I think it was actually $3700 but I got a free case. 

[CEB]

My true nostalgia lies in rig amplification.  Today’s IEM or class D powered speaker goto options are rather quaint.   Our old rigs were awesome.  My stage amplification in 1988 literally blows away what we use today.  We moved a lot of air in the 1900’s.  Typically our stage rigs were huge dual 3 way passive cabs, Crown power amps, rack mixer and some out board effects units for verb and delay.   A loud pedal tone was spiritual experience.   
 

The downside was we had to have that much amplification to hear ourselves but I loved the sound checks.   We do gig smarter today. Shows aren’t any quieter but FOH does the heavy lifting.  

[The Real MC]

It's not nostalgia for me.  It is staying off the upgrade treadmill.

 

I have a lot of gear that is over twenty years old.  One of my factors in gear purchases is that I have to get minimum ten years of use out of them.  I have sold gear that I had stopped using.

 

I remember too well the days of the DX-7, M1, and D-50.  As they each emerged, players sold their old gear at a loss just to acquire the latest and greatest toys.  I saw the futility in that and was determined not to fall into that trap.  That's why I stayed off the upgrade treadmill.

 

I built my MIDI patch libraries with them and I catalog them as a reference to use while building songs.  With each addition to the arsenal, managing those libraries gets to be a real chore.  I reached a point where I am complacent with what I have, because 1) I want to focus more on playing/recording and less on chores 2) all my sound design tools are covered 3) it's hard to find anything that isn't redundant.

Not to say I am against new sounds that aren't redundant.  However I'm a chronic tweaker and I love to do sound design to fit my needs.  But if a synth only has a menu with LCD and nothing more that increment/decrement buttons or a "data encoder"... dealkiller.  There is no tool that is worse for killing that precious moment of inspiration.  Faced with this type of user interface and the difficulty of developing FM/LA synthesis patches, owners had to resort to presets which EVERYBODY ELSE started using, leading to "tired patches that must die".  DX-7 tine piano... D-50 Digital Native Dance... need I say more?

 

My "dinosaur" gear was largely acquired before soft synths became viable.  I never owned any soft synths because they don't sound as good as the real deal.  I do a lot of sound design that is more efficient with a panel full of knobs and buttons right in front of me instead of a mouse.  A mouse is just another "data encoder" from the days of LCDs and menu.  Large preset libraries do not sell me, most of the presets do not appeal to me and it is a real chore to audition hundreds of presets.  Frankly I seldom use presets and prefer my own patches.

Not to say that soft synths are useless.  They are a great tool for new users who don't yet have the moola for the real stuff, or are not interested in learning to develop their sounds.

That said, I am always on the lookout for new hardware synths I can gig with that can replace my vintage stuff.  Anything lighter and more compact that still bears a panel full of knobs and buttons gets my attention.  I was never afraid to gig vintage synths, but they do have their limitations.  My studio and stage rigs utilize MIDI heavily.  My pre-MIDI vintage polysynths have MIDI retrofits but due to the design of the original circuitry most MIDI functions aren't possible.  My OB-X can't receive mod wheel, volume, note velocity, key range is limited to 64 notes.  My vintage Memorymoog (with DBM MIDI upgrade) doesn't do note velocity, CCs, patch sysex, key range is limited to 64 notes.  

 

For years I've kept an eye out for compact duplicates for gigging while the vintage stuff stays in the studio.  Along comes the OB-X8 that nails the OB-X sound and has much better MIDI implementation - I acquired two modules (compact, lightweight) for my stage rig and the keyboard for the studio (I do the sound design in the studio then transfer them to modules over sysex).  My Memorymoog was much harder to duplicate.  The Andromeda sufficed until it started showing its age by crashing in the middle of a song.  Now I use the Trigon-6 module in its place - not a one-for-one exact replacement but still damn close, and the effects are useful for an analog poly synth.  Big bonus: zero trimpots to go out of calibration when they are carted and bumped.  My Voyager RME replaces my RA Minimoog for the deeper modulation options and programmability.  My XK3c/XLK3 is my compact programmable Hammond, sounds damn good and has MIDI that my C-2 would never have.  They all have modern features that the designers of the originals could never have conceived of.  THOSE are the values I look for in new gear.

I have vintage gear that I will never gig - old 1967 "sparkle top" Fender Rhodes, Oberheim FVS.  I won't gig a Rhodes in a band with overdriven guitar players because they mask the Rhodes, it can't be heard.  That 1967 Rhodes will lose its tuning when it is carted.  So if I need a Rhodes sound in a jazz band, I'll use my Kurzweil.  The Oberheim FVS is too damn bulky, its programmer is inadequate, and the stock interconnects proved to be fragile.  The FVS has modulation options that none of my other Oberheims can do.  An example is EG modulating the pulse width of oscillator(s) - this is great for attack transients IE brass.  But it only sounds effective with the FVS, my Memorymoog can do the EG->PW trick but it doesn't sound the same.  I haven't heard an authentic FVS clone, although I haven't yet tried the TEO-5.

CEB just mentioned stage rigs, and I have to agree the older stuff is better.  My Moog Synamp is heavy as hell, but with a pair of Bose 802s (and mandatory 802c processor) that stage rig could compete with a guitar player using a Marshall 100w stack.  Today I have a QSC KW122 for the smaller stages but it won't project the volume of the older system.

[ProfD]

6 hours ago, CEB said:

Have to spend more?   My main board cost $4k.  😀

 

ps. I think it was actually $3700 but I got a free case. 

D8mn. If close to $4k didn't net a great KB action, Houston we have a bigger problem. 🤣

 

Heavy as h8ll and potential chiropractor visits has been enough for many musicians to either tap out or switch to lighter-weight gear.

 

Touring musicians with a budget to rent any type of vintage gear and roadies to move it are still opting for newer gear.

 

Of course, the younger musicians growing up with small footprint hardware gear and software look at vintage gear sideways beyond the novelty of it.😎

[Paul Woodward]

Modern tech can replicate just about any sound and can process audio, midi and more at lightning speeds. We are yet to see what AI will eventually lead to in music production.

I do get nostalgic when I see old gear, I think their limitations made them fun to use and explore, and you would wring out every last bit of power and sound. Much if it was incredibly robust and well made which is why much of it is still around today. Will we see MODX’s, CK’s and the likes in 20+ years? Im not so sure.

I remember copying patch sheets into synths and enjoying a new sound, or spending hours with a synth trying to recreate something like the sound (sample) of breaking glass. There is almost too much now, I can get just about any sound, sample or effect from my DAW. As incredible as that is, I miss the fun of working (and learning) to achieve  great sounds.

[CEB]

5 hours ago, ProfD said:

D8mn. If close to $4k didn't net a great K action, Houston we have a bigger problem. 🤣

 

Heavy as h8ll and potential chiropractor visits has been enough for many musicians to either tap out or switch to lighter-weight gear.

 

Touring musicians with a budget to rent any type of vintage gear and roadies to move it are still opting for newer gear.

 

Of course, the younger musicians growing up with small footprint hardware gear and software look at vintage gear sideways beyond the novelty of it.😎

 

I was sort of being a little bitch.  The RH3 in the Kronos 2 does not totally suck but I don't love it.  I hated it for about 3 weeks.  I'm not sure why.  I usually acclimate to a new action in about a week.   If I am away from the K2 for any amount of time I will have another adjustment period.  It is very stiff/heavy in the bass and it feels a hair shallow or it bottoms out a little too hard or something for my taste.  Strange thing is that I played the 88 key RH3 in the original Korg SV-1 and liked it.  Maybe the difference is related to the way the Kronos does aftertouch ... or I got a lemon.  But the instrument solved a lot of problems I had live and made for a much cleaner rig.  Overall the acquisition was a plus. 

 

But I'm the guy who often posts that gear is overrated.  Generally anything works if you put in enough reps.  'Play the piano until the piano plays you.'

[ProfD]

4 hours ago, CEB said:

The RH3 in the Kronos 2 does not totally suck but I don't love it. 

 

Strange thing is that I played the 88 key RH3 in the original Korg SV-1 and liked it. 

I've wondered if it's how the sounds are implemented that makes a difference in RH3 between Kronos and SV-1.

 

I didn't do a side-by-side comparison but playing the Kronos never inspired me to replace the SV-1. 

.

4 hours ago, CEB said:

Maybe the difference is related to the way the Kronos does aftertouch ... or I got a lemon.  But the instrument solve a lot of problems I had live and made for a much cleaner rig.  Overall the acquisition was a plus. 

The Kronos is an excellent instrument overall. Ticks all boxes required to get through any gig situation.😎

[Sundown]

9 hours ago, The Despicable MC said:

One of my factors in gear purchases is that I have to get minimum ten years of use out of them. 

 

That’s a good rule of thumb for expensive hardware … I might stand alone on this, but I think it’s also a good rule for computers. My 2012 Rok Box is still going strong, and since I added a UAD Octo PCIe in late 2023, I’ll get another two years out of it at least. I can’t afford to drop three or four large more often than that.

 

Todd

[Sundown]

22 hours ago, ProfD said:

The trips down memory lane are cool. I just believe those who weren't *there* should get the full picture. 

 

Excellent point … I have a built-in protection mechanism from most vintage keyboard synths:  I won’t buy a board without velocity sensitivity. Plenty of records were made on synths without it, but I’ll take a modern emulation any day of the week if it has touch sensitivity. A vintage Jupiter 8, a Prophet 5, etc., I’ll pass.

 

Todd

[Paul Woodward]

11 hours ago, CEB said:

Strange thing is that I played the 88 key RH3 in the original Korg SV-1 and liked it.  Maybe the difference is related to the way the Kronos does aftertouch ... or I got a lemon. 

This has been discussed in several other threads. I really disliked the Kronos 88 keybed, but absolutely love my Grandstage. Others feel the same way about the SV1. I think perhaps aftertouch is the key factor here (pun intended). The D1, according to some, does not feel quite as ‘premium’ as the higher end Korg RH3 equipped boards, but I suspect that is more of a placebo effect (or just hard to believe) considering how cheap that board can be picked up. Perhaps all RH3 boards are equal.

Speaking of the D1, if it was a little lighter with some additional features and a full set of midi/usb connections, im sure that would be the master board many Korg fans would love. Why haven’t Korg made a fully weighted master board?

[YashN]

For the single workstation, I'd like MPE, that would help with some vintage gear emulations.

 

A modern expressive Keybed would be great, they would go well together.

 

Other than that, it's all there in more modern boards of my favourite brand, but there's an opportunity to add some interpolation in some specific applications.

 

One interesting thing would be to have several Simultaneous A/D Inputs, enough for chords, for a specific machine that was never widely released.

 

Otherwise, I'm a happy camper

[ProfD]

1 hour ago, YashN said:

For the single workstation, I'd like MPE, that would help with some vintage gear emulations.

 

One interesting thing would be to have several Simultaneous A/D Inputs...

Short of several simultaneous A/D inputs, the Expressive E Osmose might suffice.😎 

[YashN]

1 minute ago, ProfD said:

Short of several simultaneous A/D inputs, the Expressive E Osmose might suffice.😎 

 

I've thought that! An epic pairing indeed. It does have MPE, right?

[ProfD]

14 minutes ago, YashN said:

 

I've thought that! An epic pairing indeed. It does have MPE, right?

The good news is Osmose has MPE.  Unfortunately, it does not have VAST.😁😎

[David Emm]

On 11/1/2024 at 10:15 PM, Sundown said:

When I do think about gear, I think about buying a Proteus 2000 or a Roland MKS-50. Nobody uses Proteuses anymore so they sound unique, and that era of ROMpler sits wonderfully in a mix. Why an MKS-50? It’s another instrument that does great comp/pad sounds and really comes to life with some reverb or delay. And both of these are cheap …

 

E-mu had some sort of magic dust to sprinkle. I have several of Digital Sound Factory's sets of same and they're quite useful. I left their Virtuoso orchestral set in the dust when Spitfire appeared, but the rest have held up well. The XL-1 has a dated techno aroma to it, although its still a viable grab bag with some useful surprises in it. I had a Proteus-1 that ate it in a friend's garage fire, but I still play a Planet Earth module. I recommend the Proteus 2000 line as excellent Synthesizer Helper. Their gear can really lift a mix.

 

I loved the bleep out of my Roland Juno-1. It was the best of my simpler synths. TAL makes a good version of it called TAL-PHA, with MPE, aftertouch, microtuning & effects. It deserves a look. https://tal-software.com/products/tal-pha