analogman1 Posted October 18 Share Posted October 18 Hi Folks! I know we discuss all of the above synths in detail; is there a reliable source which compares them all for the main features? I’m considering one of these to add to my rig. Any input or direction to an honest comparison would be greatly appreciated!!! Thanks in advance Tom Quote Tom Nord Electro 5D, Modal Cobalt 8, Yamaha upright piano, numerous plug-ins... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DroptopBroham Posted October 18 Share Posted October 18 Brother, I was in your shoes once. I chose the MODX8+. For me the Roland Fantom 08 and all it stands for is garbage and shouldn't even be considered. The quality just isn't there when compared to the MODX and Nautilus. The choice between the Nautilus and MODX is tough. I really liked them both and sometimes feel like I should've gone Korg. The MODX i just connected with more. The interface is so intuitive, very easy to get things done and edit patches and scenes and the Live Set mode is gucci af. Sound quality is typical yamaha goodness and the keybed is the best of the three. It's Achiles is the organs. The organ patches are pretty good but have limited adjustment. You can easily plug in a phone or tablet and play VB3m but that's a hassle. Korg sounds great too but I didn't like the keys as much as Yamaha's or Roland's. It's much more fun than the Kronos. It's got a real organ sim that is legit plus the EPs are nutz. Yamaha has the better APs and Wurlys. To me the negatives are the keys (they are even worse on the AT version, key travel cut off at the knees for an AT that blows chunks #nowerthit) and the Windows 3.1 level boot times. It literally takes like 2 or 3 minutes to boot up and turn on. That is probably the worst con. I bonded with the MODX but that Korg was calling me with it's organ sim and some of the other virtuals in there were hawt. Really I think I would've bought it if the keys felt on close to Yamaha's, I think then the long wait to play could be tolerated but waiting 3 minutes to play on cheap feeling keys sucks. So uninspiring. Bottom line whatever you get you going to be good, just dont get the Nautilus AT or Fantom 08. Truth. Just wanted to add that I am talking about the 88 key versions. The synth key versions would probably have Yamaha dead last with Roland and then Korg coming out on top. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean M. H. Posted October 18 Share Posted October 18 I'll go ahead and give my brief**, nuts and bolts summary just from my memory...but this sounds like the type of thing AnotherScott has likely already done/answered in previous threads, probably much more thoroughly than what you're about to get from me lol Sound Engines ------------ Nautilus: several (nine I believe?), including sample playback (both "standard," and dedicated engines for piano & EPs), their version of a clonewheel organ, and virtual analog engines MODX: 2 engines--sample playback and FM. The FM engine is pretty extensive compared to say the old DX7, with more operators and more waveforms available than traditional FM synthesis. Fantom-0: sample playback, a select subset of their "Supernatural" (sampling+ modeling) sounds, VA, and their clonewheel engine Obviously subjective...and obviously I'm over-generalizing here...but IMO, the MODX accels at acoustic/natural sounds, the Roland has the best synths/leads, and Korg sort of splits the difference and arguably has the best overall soundset. I'll also add that I feel the Fantom-0 has the most "dated" soundset, with all those old (JX and XV I guess) sounds, and the MODX sounds the most "modern," with the Motion Sequencing (see below) and their ridiculous amount of arpeggios, rhythms, etc...YMMV Controllers ------------- Nautilus: has no sliders (like Kronos had)...but you get 6 knobs that can be toggled between preset functions, and user assignable functions. These knobs also push/click in, but I believe this is just to lock/set their position--not to actually perform any real function. Pitch and mod is via joystick. MODX: 4 knobs, which can be toggled between various preset functions, or user assignable functions. There's 4 sliders, but I believe these are hard-wired to control the level of the elements/sounds--and can't be reassigned(?)...you also get the SuperKnob here--which is essentially a macro controller, that can simultaneously control tons of different parameters at once as you turn it. MODX also has something called Motion Sequencing, which basically allows you to "step sequence" and morph various parameters and controllers. I haven't used this enough to comment any further honestly. Pitch and mod are via wheels on the MODX Believe Fantom-0 wins this category pretty easily...you get 8 assignable sliders (they also act as drawbars when using the organ engine... don't ask me why they didn't put 9!)...also 8 assignable knobs...BOTH wheels and a stick for pitch/mod...dedicated knobs for the synth filter (cutoff and resonance), and 16 drum pads--which can used for many other things than just playing drum sounds! Patch Management and Gig Navigation ------------------- Nautilus: has Korg's venerable setlist feature, where you can load up a bunch of sounds on a page, color code them, add notes, descriptions, etc. I don't have much experience using this, but suffice to say, it's always been regarded as the best "setlist" type of feature available, so there's that. MODX: Did away with the whole single-sound (program, patch, etc) vs multiple-sound (combi, setup, etc) "mode" thing. Everything lives inside a "Performance". You can then make a Live Set, which is basically a page of various performances (say all of them you'd need for a particular gig or set). It works fine IMO, but I'm not sure allows as much customization as Korg's implemtation. Fantom-0: They did a good job here IMO. They allow you to create custom pages of sounds like the others. You can also create "chains," where you can put sounds in an order for a particular gig/set, and name that "chain," without needing to re-order or change the actual save/memory locations of those sounds. I have to believe this probably approaches Korg's setlist feature, but someone with experience on both will have to weigh in. Finally, I like the fact that Roland has a star-based "favorites" system...it's a rating, not binary...so you can give your favorite pianos 3 stars, your next favorite group of pianos 2-stars, etc...then the 3 star sounds will show up first (on top) when you pull up your list of favorites...much more useful than the old school "yay or nay" favorites we used to have on older boards (not sure if Nautilus or MODX have this or not). Other/random --------------- The Korg is the only one that has an internal power supply--MODX and Fantom-0 both have external power bricks... some people consider this a deal breaker-- others couldn't care less... As mentioned by Droptop, Korg has the crazy long boot up time (2+ minutes)...while the others bootup in no time (well, less than 20 seconds let's say)...again, big deal for some people, non-factor for others *All 3 support audio over USB. *Nautilus I believe allows you to record audio tracks onboard via it's 1/4" inputs *The Fantom-0 has basically a simple sampler built-in, allowing you to trigger drums, loops, etc from the pads. Korg has a slightly higher price point last I checked...but this makes sense, as it is their "flagship" board, whereas Yamaha and Roland have Montage and the big FANTOM respectively. **Sorry... didn't wind up being so brief 😬 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stokely Posted October 18 Share Posted October 18 I own a Modx7 and now a Fantom 6 (the big model, but the sounds that I use are mostly the same other than the vpiano). I considered the Nautilus, the main things I didn't like were the really long boot times and the rounded shape. Plus from vids I preferred the Roland OS, but I figure I'd have gotten used to the Nautilus in time. I got pretty good with the Modx and a lot of people say its arcane. Sound-wise, the Modx/Montage sounds....cleaner? more clear...but that's not necessarily a big advantage. The Roland has a kind of forward sound that works well for me. It should be said that I'm mostly using it for pianos and especially synths, and I like the Fantom's synths better than the Modx's for the most part. That said, the Modx default patches do it no favors if like me you go looking for classic rock synth sounds. Rolling my own, and buying Analog Xperience, gave me more usable sounds for poly and mono lead sounds. Pads are outstanding especially the FM ones and hybrid (FM + sample based). I still prefer the Fantom and I tend to use the ones available on the Fantom-0, other than some JX3/JX8 model patches (not sure if the JX8 is on the Fantom-O). Mostly I use zencore sounds, simply put they work great for me. People rag on the Modx super knob but it's a great thing IMO. It's basically a macro control, it can do a number of things in multiple ranges and directions, allowing you to really morph sounds in great ways. I used it from everything from leslie gain to radical changes across various Parts. It in turn can be mapped from say a foot pedal. Modx has Live sets, Fantom has scene chains....I like some things about each of these and dislike others. Architecturally, overall so far I think the Modx makes a bit more sense. Each Performance is made of Parts, and those Parts do not live independently like Roland's Tones do. The Fantom is weird to me--it is true that you can't use Tones by themselves--they have to be in a Scene--but they ARE saved and referenced separately. I'm not really sure I dig that approach. Frankly every time I make a new scene, I start with a tone and immediately save my starting one as a new user tone. So in the end my result isn't much different from the Modx, there are no shared tones. I don't sequence on these (maybe some day I'll do a bit live) so I can't talk about that. I will say that the decision by Roland to have all the Tones within a Scene share the same reverb could be a bit limiting for some. What is doubly odd is that some effects (like delay) are stored with the Tone. One annoyance when making Performances on the Modx, on the other hand, is when you find a nice one to combine with the one you are working with and then look down and see that now you have 7 or 8 Parts--each performance is made up of 1-8 Parts, but Parts don't exist outside Performances like Roland's Tones do. A C programmer would say the Modx is "by value" whereas the Roland is (sort of) "by reference" The nautilus/Kronos way is even more toward the by reference side with it's combi/single modes if I understand it from vids. I see pros and cons with all of these. Other than the stock synths (which can be improved to some degree as I mentioned), the big weakness of the Modx is the lousy b3 organ. If you want to use a computer, phone or ipad app, it makes up for it by having a built-in audio interface and separate control for the external usb instrument. This allowed me to use B3x from my ipad fairly easily once I learned how to set it up. It was mostly glitch free (with a few hiccups, and honestly I don't really like using these external devices live I have found....many others feel differently and I give Yamaha credit for being one of the few/best at folding in external usb instruments). 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zephonic Posted October 18 Share Posted October 18 I have a MODX8 with a Nautilus 61AT on top, and I returned a Fantom 07, so I feel somewhat qualified to speak on this. I returned the Roland because I feel that many of the bread'n'butter sounds are too similar to my vintage Fantom X7. It's great as a synth, and you can't get those warm Roland pads and bass sounds anywhere else. But that's not something I use a lot on 90% of the gigs I do. I still have my vintage X7 and I will never let that go, and I have a Roland Cloud membership, so that covers all the Roland goodness I need. The MODX8 (and the Montage) is just what a modern all-round synth should be, it is good at a lot of things, although I find the Rhodes sounds disappointing. I addressed that with Purgatory Creek Vintage Keys Collection. MODX sounds very good otherwise, but after six years of gigging I still don't love it, not sure why. Maybe it's the GHS action, which is not great, but I just never connected with it. That said, I'd probably get another one when this one kicks the bucket. It's just so practical and easy to use, you can't really go wrong with it. And...Yamaha really knocked it out of the park with the matching YSCMODX8 soft case! That is hands-down the best case I have ever had. The combined weight is very low, but it's sturdy and protective enough, has all the storage you need, and grips and handles in all the right places. The Nautilus is my current sweetheart, the closest thing to what my old Fantom was, a friend, a companion. The EP's are much nicer to play than the MODX, and to me it's somewhere between Roland and Yamaha sonically. It approaches the clarity of the Yamaha, and the warmth of the Roland. The action feels nice for synth stuff and the aftertouch is easy to control. Negatives are the weight and the edges ( they make it less effortless to carry). It sounds like a Kronos, and I regret not getting one of those when they were still current, used prices are insane. The Kronos' bigger touch screen makes it easier to use. I literally use my Logitech stylus half the time I need to do stuff on the Nautilus. The made the display smaller but kept the same GUI, not great. So that's my $0.02, as usual YMMV etc. etc. 2 Quote local: Korg Nautilus 61 AT | Yamaha MODX8 away: GigPerformer | 16" MBP M1 Max home: Kawai RX-2 | Korg D1 | Roland Fantom X7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean M. H. Posted October 18 Share Posted October 18 Agree with Stokely and Zephonic's summary of the sound strengths/weaknesses. Also good point Stokely made regarding the different architectures of the MODX vs Fantom-0. I generally find Roland's scheme a bit more straight forward. On the MODX, the best-sounding version of a tone/patch (especially pianos and EPs) is typically made up of several "parts," each of which is made up of several "elements"...this can make creating splits and layers a bit of a PITA...you create a simple piano and strings layer, and wonder how you're suddenly using 6 of your 8 usable parts!?!? It also makes building a sound from scratch difficult, as you're looking for a piano "part" to start with, and half of them you come across are only damper noise, or only triggered at fortissimo velocities, etc... With that said, in terms of sheer power, the MODX/Montage might actually be the most capable synthesizer and sound design tool out of this bunch--and probably compared to just about any digital synth ever, period! It's not often looked at in this regard, because of it's rompler (Motif) roots. But with 8 parts (technically 16, but only 8 can be controlled locally) x 8 elements...each of which is essentially it's own synth (independent filters, effects etc)...plus Motion sequencing, plus SuperKnob, plus FM... it's an absolute beast! If you wanna dig that deep... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
locture Posted October 18 Share Posted October 18 I own a Nautilus 88 and have played the other two. From my own experience: Key action: Nautilus >= Fantom-0 > MODX IMO Nautilus has (arguably) the best hammer action amongst the three but ultimately the key action is a subjective thing. Someone prefer the PHA-4 on the Fantom-0 while the others prefer the RH3 on the Nautilus. Both are good enough for almost anything. MODX has GHS and it's usually considered subpar for pianists. Sound: Nautilus > MODX > Fantom-0 An easy win for Nautilus here. The best AP/EP/organ and has the best synthesis capability. MODX has the best FM engine among the three and some nice plucked/woodwind patches but doesn't do well on analog/organ/ep. Roland Fantom-0 has solid VA synth but can't do FM so you need to live with the sample based DX7 patches, and the ap/ep aren't very good. But you'd probably not notice the difference if you play in a band anyway. Functionality: Nautilus > Fantom-0 > MODX Nautilus has everything you need as a workstation, including sampler capability and a linear sequencer. Fantom-0 has sampler and a pattern-based sequencer (easier to use than Nautilus but quite a few limitations) and a sampler. MODX has neither (it has a so-called sequencer but only playback). Nautilus is the only one which has aftertouch model (with extra cost though). Physical control: Fantom-0 > MODX > Nautilus Fantom-0 has the best on-board physical controls which can probably cover all your user cases (except for the 9th drawbar for serious organ player). MODX has less physical control but is still considered enough. Nautilus has the least (no physical drawbar) and you need to do everything on the touchscreen. I use it with an external controller when needed. Other things: The Nautilus is built like a tank with metal but VERY HEAVY. You'd probably want Fantom-0 or MODX if you bring it out frequently. The Nautilus takes more than 2min to boot. The other two below 1min. The 61/73 key model of Nautilus has a special shape design and is harder to be kept stable on the stand. Not an issue with the 88 key model though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
analogman1 Posted October 18 Author Share Posted October 18 All great suggestions! I will have to do some soul searching and figure out which one suits my needs best. Since I’m primarily based in using MainStage, I’d also just consider an older, used workstation like a first generation modx or a korg m50 or used nautilus or Roland (whichever Fantom is a good deal). Any thoughts on that? (But I have to admit, the new ones are pretty tempting.) Quote Tom Nord Electro 5D, Modal Cobalt 8, Yamaha upright piano, numerous plug-ins... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean M. H. Posted October 18 Share Posted October 18 If you'll primarily be using Mainstage or other external sounds, then I would think keybed/action becomes an even higher priority. In that regard, many people feel the older boards generally had "better" actions than newer boards (especially the MODX and Fantom-0, which, as mid-tier boards, don't have the premium actions found on their big brother boards). But that topic is so subjective, it's hard to know what you'd prefer...are you considering the 88-key versions of these boards? Or the smaller, synth action ones? Also, keep in mind that these newer boards act as an audio interface, so that you can send both audio and MIDI to/from your Mainstage device via one USB cable. So they do offer that advantage over older boards for your specific use-case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YashN Posted October 18 Share Posted October 18 Some sound comparisons are here, it's good to read the comments too: Quote Kurzweil K2500XS + KDFX, Roland: JX-3P, JX-8P, Korg: Polysix, DW-8000, Alesis Micron, DIY Analogue Modular Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Papa.J Posted October 18 Share Posted October 18 In case it is of interest, the Roland Fantom keyboards do have some built-in support for navigating and controlling MainStage. Sadly, the Roland Fantom keyboards require a driver to work as an audio interface - i.e. they are not USB class-compliant, and therefore will not work with an iPad or Phone. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProfD Posted October 18 Share Posted October 18 12 hours ago, analogman1 said: I know we discuss all of the above synths in detail; is there a reliable source which compares them all for the main features? The KB comparisons and recommendations provided are great. 1 hour ago, analogman1 said: I will have to do some soul searching and figure out which one suits my needs best. The reality is that laying hands on each KB and assessing the FTEC (Finger to Ear Connection) is still the best way to determine the *right* KB for your situation. One size does not fit all.😎 2 Quote PD "The greatest thing you'll ever learn, is just to love and be loved in return."--E. Ahbez "Nature Boy" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CEB Posted October 18 Share Posted October 18 I can’t say. The three are really different. You just have to prioritize your specific needs. It seems kind of sad because all three I feel like are a step down from the 88 currently in my rig. If MainStage does the heavy lifting in your patch control then a K2700 or PC4 offers more pedal IO and has sliders. But they have different downsides also. if I had to use one of the above three it would be the Nautilus but that is based on the way I work and my experience with the Kronos engines. Good luck. Quote "It doesn't have to be difficult to be cool" - Mitch Towne "A great musician can bring tears to your eyes!!! So can a auto Mechanic." - Stokes Hunt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stokely Posted October 18 Share Posted October 18 If indeed you are using mainstage, then iirc (and correct me if I'm wrong) the Modx is the only one of these with a built-in audio interface that lets a single cable handle both audio and midi. Audio meaning that the computer (or ipad or phone) audio is handled by the modx and combined with its internal sounds. So you don't need an external interface or mixer. This is a great feature IMO. Less fiddly stuff to worry about (granted, I don't use any devices live because I want ZERO fiddly stuff, but that's my hangup!) Not sure where you are located, but I'm considering letting my Modx7 go. Main reason I haven't is simply because I detest the selling process so much, I've only had lowballing weirdos on marketplace/craigslist. And frankly I wouldn't be selling it for enough to make me make it a priority. I have Purgatory Creek and analog Xperience installed. I don't really like playing it, it's too light and my main keyboard (Nord STage 3 compact) is a better fit for what I'm doing. As I say I have the heavy Fantom 6 that I also use so I really don't need the Modx at this time. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zephonic Posted October 18 Share Posted October 18 41 minutes ago, Stokely said: If indeed you are using mainstage, then iirc (and correct me if I'm wrong) the Modx is the only one of these with a built-in audio interface that lets a single cable handle both audio and midi. That is incorrect. They all do Audio/MIDI over USB nowadays. Korg lagged behind, but the Nautilus finally does. @OP: if you're primarily gonna be using it as a controller for Mainstage, there might be cheaper/better options. Quote local: Korg Nautilus 61 AT | Yamaha MODX8 away: GigPerformer | 16" MBP M1 Max home: Kawai RX-2 | Korg D1 | Roland Fantom X7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnotherScott Posted October 18 Share Posted October 18 On 10/17/2024 at 11:43 PM, DroptopBroham said: I chose the MODX8+. For me the Roland Fantom 08 and all it stands for is garbage and shouldn't even be considered. The quality just isn't there when compared to the MODX and Nautilus. Seriously? All their boards have their strengths and weaknesses. Compared to your MODX+, Fantom is better in real-time controls, VA synth function, clonewheel organ function, Mainstage integration, seamless sound switching (available with sounds of up to 8 parts instead of up to 4), assignable outs, drum functions, sample pads... Of course MODX has its advantages too... I think it's acoustic instrument sounds are generally better, it's integration of external MIDI sounds is better, it has 2 insert effects per part instead of 1, it's got the FM synth, the class compliant audio interface... point is, there's no junk to be had here, just different trade-offs. On 10/17/2024 at 11:43 PM, DroptopBroham said: {MODX} sound quality is typical yamaha goodness and the keybed is the best of the three. It's Achiles is the organs. The organ patches are pretty good but have limited adjustment. You can easily plug in a phone or tablet and play VB3m but that's a hassle. I don't think VB3m has any more adjustability than you can get on the MODX except for the mic positioning (though it has other advantages). On 10/17/2024 at 11:43 PM, DroptopBroham said: Korg sounds great too...It's much more fun than the Kronos. I haven't had a chance to try Nautilus yet. Could you elaborate about what made it more fun to use than Kronos? On 10/17/2024 at 11:43 PM, DroptopBroham said: Yamaha has the better APs and Wurlys. There's always some subjectivity to these things, but I'd choose Korg over Yamaha for Wurli. On 10/17/2024 at 11:43 PM, DroptopBroham said: Just wanted to add that I am talking about the 88 key versions. The synth key versions would probably have Yamaha dead last Actions are again subjective, but I prefer the MODX non-88 action to Fantom-0's... less pushback, and more even in response from front to back. For piano in particular (if you must play piano from it), the Fantom-06/07 are quite poor. The MODX6/7 is poor for piano playability out of the box, but there are velocity parameters you can tweak to make it okay, I did not get comparable piano playability out of the Fantom-0. As for the 88s, I didn't like the GHS in the MODX8 I tried (I've liked it better in other boards). I haven't played the Fantom-08 (though generally haven't been a fan of Roland's recent hammer actions, which seem to always be a bit sluggish). I haven't played the Nautilus 88, and RH3 is another action where I have liked it more on some boards than others... but regardless, Nautilus 88 weighs too much for me to consider it. I'd be inclined to stick with a 61/7x and put a lightweight 88 underneath, certainly for 50-ish lb Nautilus, and maybe for the others depending on how I felt about the particular actions. All three of those boards have USB Host function, so it is likely that even the cheap USB-only boards will work if you want to use the 88 to trigger the pianos/EPs in the primary board (though any particular combination should be tested first, as the companies don't guarantee compatibility with everything). For less than the $700 difference between a 61 and an 88 MODX+ or Nautilus (Roland doesn't have as much of a premium here), there are numerous options. Personally, for the last couple of years I've mostly been using a non-hammer Fantom-0 paired with either a Liano or a Casio, though occasionally something else. Bonus: The second board also can supply other sounds, which in the case of the Fantom-0 is especially valuable since, while I'm fine with the Roland for most sounds, I'm not a fan of its pianos/EPs. So to get back from there to the main point of the thread, the fact that MODX+/Fantom-0/Nautilus are all easily expandable with external sounds means that, to me, having "the best sound set" takes a back seat to operation/ergonomics/usability, action, travel weight. (And really, none have "the best sound set" in every respect anyway... e.g. I'd say of the three, Yamaha comes in last for organ and VA synth, Roland comes in last for pianos and FM. Korg is my favorite for EPs.) And in this case, now that we've learned that the OP is using Mainstage, the sounds are even less of an issue. 23 hours ago, Papa.J said: In case it is of interest, the Roland Fantom keyboards do have some built-in support for navigating and controlling MainStage. Sadly, the Roland Fantom keyboards require a driver to work as an audio interface - i.e. they are not USB class-compliant, and therefore will not work with an iPad or Phone. The MIDI part is fine, and you can still run the audio out of the iPad/iPhone into the analog audio input of the Fantom-0, it's not terribly burdensome. Though a little more so now that the i-devices don't have headphone jacks. 22 hours ago, Stokely said: If indeed you are using mainstage, then iirc (and correct me if I'm wrong) the Modx is the only one of these with a built-in audio interface that lets a single cable handle both audio and midi. All three boards can do this from a computer running Mainstage. The Yamaha and Korg are class compliant, the Roland requires installing a driver on the Mac. (OTOH, the Roland is also the only one with specific Mainstage integration built into the board, as Papa.J said.) On 10/18/2024 at 8:59 AM, analogman1 said: Since I’m primarily based in using MainStage, I’d also just consider an older, used workstation like a first generation modx or a korg m50 or used nautilus or Roland Mainstage argues for Fantom for best integration there. As I mentioned, I don't think the 06/07 action will handle pianos well, you'd have to see what you feel about the 08 (which again I haven't played), though it would likely disappoint for organ, if that's a concern. If you could find a used Fantom 7, I think that action could cover everything (plus you get aftertouch and some other nice enhancements). 39 lbs is above my weight threshold, but certainly not everyone's. (ETA: Or 33.75 lbs for the Fantom 6.) If that doesn't work for you, I'd also look beyond Roland/Korg/Yamaha... Kurzweils make for strong controllers. 5 Quote Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our now not-so-new new video at https://youtu.be/3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out! And hopefully I'll have something new here this year. ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Radagast Posted October 18 Share Posted October 18 15 hours ago, DroptopBroham said: Korg sounds great too but I didn't like the keys as much as Yamaha's or Roland's. It's much more fun than the Kronos. I find that hard to believe. I’ll never reward Korg by buying a stunted and sparse keyboard based on the Kronos when they haven’t replaced the Kronos. And if you’re dragging Roland into the discussion, then the EX models should be the ones discussed. The Kurzweil K2700 deserves to be in this discussion too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean M. H. Posted October 18 Share Posted October 18 1 hour ago, Radagast said: I find that hard to believe. I’ll never reward Korg by buying a stunted and sparse keyboard based on the Kronos when they haven’t replaced the Kronos. And if you’re dragging Roland into the discussion, then the EX models should be the ones discussed. The Kurzweil K2700 deserves to be in this discussion too. Well...I guess it's really up to the OP to say which boards should be discussed...or more specifically, I should say--to clarify what his preferred price range might be. I mentioned the Fantom-0 instead of the EX because it's basically the same price point as the MODX that the OP mentioned...but since he also mentioned Nautilus, I guess more expensive boards (like the K2700) are fair game too 🤷♂️ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YashN Posted October 18 Share Posted October 18 17 hours ago, Sean M. H. said: With that said, in terms of sheer power, the MODX/Montage might actually be the most capable synthesizer and sound design tool out of this bunch--and probably compared to just about any digital synth ever, period! It's not often looked at in this regard, because of it's rompler (Motif) roots. But with 8 parts (technically 16, but only 8 can be controlled locally) x 8 elements...each of which is essentially it's own synth (independent filters, effects etc)...plus Motion sequencing, plus SuperKnob, plus FM... it's an absolute beast! If you wanna dig that deep... The top of the heap in those regards isn't the Yamaha, but the Kurzweil V.A.S.T. platform: Forte, PC4 line, K2700 and forthcoming K2061 & K2088. They can do all that and way more than all that. They are really Digital Modulars. Moreover, the extent of their capabilities are not covered by the on-board presets: for instance, in my own K2500XS with KDFX, I have many more Synthesis Methods that I worked on than were in it from the factory, and the majority of those aren't even in the K2700. The KDFX/KSP8-inspired multi-effects section has some of the best Reverbs you will ever hear in any gear, including if you pit these against the big names in rack like Eventide & Lexicon, as some of the Reverbs were created and optimised by Christopher Moore, one of a handful of worldwide Hardware Digital Reverb experts at the time.. Just to illustrate with an example from the Yamaha Lineage: the FS1R had 8 ops, 88 algorithms and formant filters, the new workstations have the FM part but didn't specifically include the formant filters (unless you can add them yourself in the signal chain which I haven't tried). So that's the 8 ops, with the 88 ALGs. In Kurzweil V.A.S.T., I can do those 8 ops and 88 ALGs, but I am not limited to those at all unlike most other synths where you're stuck with the specs from the factory. I can add 2 more ops to make it a 10-op engine, add one more Layer among a set of them (let's say 24 different FM Layers with various processing and routings) and turn it into a 88 * 24 = 2,112-ALG FM engine. Furthermore, Cascade & Dynamic V.A.S.T. also allow me to create my own filters. Therefore, I can in addition to all this, I can add Formant Filters of my own creation after these ALGs. Does it stop there? No, I can add further Ops and ALGs at will, unless I either run out of DSP units or Polyphony for my uses. The latest Yamaha do have some very cool things going for them: the left-most screen to display the adaptive real-time control destinations for each pot is great, the new circuit & component modeling for the internal VA engine, and a similar approach for the effects sections are stand-outs from my (V.A.S.T.) perspective. The V.A.S.T. code base has a more traditional DSP modeling at a higher level. Quote Kurzweil K2500XS + KDFX, Roland: JX-3P, JX-8P, Korg: Polysix, DW-8000, Alesis Micron, DIY Analogue Modular Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YashN Posted October 18 Share Posted October 18 3 hours ago, AnotherScott said: If that doesn't work for you, I'd also look beyond Roland/Korg/Yamaha... Kurzweils make for strong controllers. ... and make for extremely powerful Synths too - they're essentially Digital Modular Synths where you can build your own Synthesis Methods, your own Synths, your own Drum Machines, your own Multi-effect Chains, etc... Basically, it's a build-your-own-Studio platform. I provide an interesting example in my previous post here. Quote Kurzweil K2500XS + KDFX, Roland: JX-3P, JX-8P, Korg: Polysix, DW-8000, Alesis Micron, DIY Analogue Modular Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YashN Posted October 18 Share Posted October 18 Not 88-key but I think the new Akai MPC Keys are a strong contender in the Workstation space nowadays too. Quote Kurzweil K2500XS + KDFX, Roland: JX-3P, JX-8P, Korg: Polysix, DW-8000, Alesis Micron, DIY Analogue Modular Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ibarch Posted October 18 Share Posted October 18 I much prefer the Fantom 08's keyboard for piano over the Korg and Yamaha actions. It is the same as used in Roland's FP-60x and RD-88 pianos and for a portable weighted action I would consider it best in class. It's not quite as good as the Fantom 8 but it is still very good for a piano action. The Fantom 06/07 action is definitely not for the classical pianist. Having said that, I don't consider any non/semi weighted action decent for piano. They all are subpar for this so being slightly more subpar is irrelevant. I agree with others that the synth action isnt quite as good as the competition but personally I don't think it much behind. I use a 07 for gigging and have no issues with it. Unless doing a side by side comparison, any of the Korg/Yamaha /Roland actions will be perfectly good once you've adjusted to them. Once concern I would have is that I've seen a few Modx boards which have developed a loud, clicky action on a number of keys. There are a few questions around the durability. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
analogman1 Posted October 19 Author Share Posted October 19 Hey folks, So many great ideas to ponder here! A few things: 1. definitely not a heavyweight 88 note. I do too many travel gigs and have adapted to playing piano on something as light as my Electro 5. 2. I’d like the ability to create scenes within patches as many of the tunes we do (the first comes to mind is a Cars tribute band/80’s band) so there are lots of synth patch changes. 3. the “synthy” instruments are most important, as I have MainStage if I need legit accurate strings or brass. I’d want plenty of analog sounds, digital sounds mostly. And the occasional FM piano, which I can get out of my Nord and/or MainStage. I’d also consider the Kurzweil mentioned…I’d have to find one to try out. One big MINUS for me are wall warts. While that wouldn’t necessarily change a potential decision, it could sway me away from a particular instrument. Hope this clarifies things a bit. thanks in advance for all of your GREAT input, thus far. Tom Quote Tom Nord Electro 5D, Modal Cobalt 8, Yamaha upright piano, numerous plug-ins... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nursers Posted October 19 Share Posted October 19 I don't have anything particularly useful to add on top of what's already been said, except to say that I own both the MODX7 and MODX7+ and recently sold a Fantom 07. I use the MODX7+ as the core of my gigging rig and love it, I did really like the Fantom 07 but was for a project that didn't eventuate, and I found its architecture difficult enough to navigate that it was easier to sell it. Keybeds are plasticky on both and didn't really feel the Fantom's was in any way superior to the MODX. Quote The Keyboard Chronicles Podcast Check out your fellow forumites in an Apple Music playlist Check out your fellow forumites in a Spotify playlist My Music: Stainless Fields Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnotherScott Posted October 19 Share Posted October 19 9 minutes ago, analogman1 said: definitely not a heavyweight 88 note. I do too many travel gigs and have adapted to playing piano on something as light as my Electro 5. What is your approximate weight limit? Fantom-06/07 action is not as piano playable as Electro 5D. I'd say MODX6/7 isn't either, but it's closer. I haven't played Nautilus. Fantom 6/7 feel better than the Nord, probably most Kurzweils do too. 5 minutes ago, analogman1 said: the “synthy” instruments are most important, as I have MainStage if I need legit accurate strings or brass. Nautilus, Fantom/Fantom-0, and Kurzweil all beat MODX+ for synthy sounds. Roland is easiest to program/tweak, via the combination of its touchscreen and all its hard controls. How much does aftertouch matter to you? 9 minutes ago, analogman1 said: One big MINUS for me are wall warts. While that wouldn’t necessarily change a potential decision, it could sway me away from a particular instrument. MODX+ has wall wart. Fantom-0 is a bit better hear with a "lump in the middle" style external power supply. Nautilus and the full Fantom have built-in power supplies. Kurz depends on the model. Quote Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our now not-so-new new video at https://youtu.be/3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out! And hopefully I'll have something new here this year. ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
analogman1 Posted October 19 Author Share Posted October 19 22 minutes ago, AnotherScott said: What is your approximate weight limit? Not really an issue. As long as it’s not a fully weighted 88, that’s cool. 23 minutes ago, AnotherScott said: How much does aftertouch matter to you? Not really important. I have a synth with it (My Cobalt ) if I wanted programs that use that. Here’s a big question: Are there any used gear “one or two generations older” to consider? It would be great to save a lot of cash on, say, an older model Korg or Fantom. Your thoughts? At one point are they “too old”? saving a lot of money would be the biggest feature of all!! 🤣🤣 Quote Tom Nord Electro 5D, Modal Cobalt 8, Yamaha upright piano, numerous plug-ins... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zephonic Posted October 19 Share Posted October 19 FWIW, the MODX8 is lighter than the Nautilus 61... Not on paper, but in practice, let me assure you this is the case. Quote local: Korg Nautilus 61 AT | Yamaha MODX8 away: GigPerformer | 16" MBP M1 Max home: Kawai RX-2 | Korg D1 | Roland Fantom X7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnotherScott Posted October 19 Share Posted October 19 12 hours ago, analogman1 said: 12 hours ago, AnotherScott said: What is your approximate weight limit? Not really an issue. As long as it’s not a fully weighted 88, that’s cool. Then the Fantom 6 or 7 remain good possibilities... though at 33.75 or 39 lbs respectively, they're still heavier than some fully weighted 88s, including the 32.7 lb Fantom-08! 12 hours ago, analogman1 said: Are there any used gear “one or two generations older” to consider? It would be great to save a lot of cash on, say, an older model Korg or Fantom. 🤣 The Fantom 6/7 is now one gen behind the current Fantom 6/7 EX. Any 61-key Kronos will give you most of what its successor Nautilus AT gives you plus more hard controls. But these are not likely to be a budget choice regardless. The recently discontinued Kurzweil PC4-7 could be a nice choice... good action, lightweight, good synth functionality, well-priced, good MIDI controller functions, though synth programming involves a lot of menu diving. The used"budget model" that comes to mind is the Roland FA-07 (but not the 06!), which has has what I think is a better action than the Fantom-06/07 and still has VA synth. It doesn't have the Fantom/Fantom-0's level of hard controls, Mainstage integration, or touchscreen, but it may be the best used lightweight budget choice with a decent action, which also includes a good amount of synthy-functionality and MIDI control. Quote Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our now not-so-new new video at https://youtu.be/3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out! And hopefully I'll have something new here this year. ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean M. H. Posted October 19 Share Posted October 19 6 hours ago, YashN said: The top of the heap in those regards isn't the Yamaha, but the Kurzweil V.A.S.T. platform: Forte, PC4 line, K2700 and forthcoming K2061 & K2088. Yes... I should've added some context to my initial comment. I currently own a MODX8+, a Fantom-07, and both a PC3(61) and PC4. So I'm certainly well aware of Kurzweil/V.A.S.T.! I'm also aware of your enthusiasm for these Kurz boards, anytime they come up in a thread lol...and you're certainly not wrong! V.A.S.T. doesn't have to take a backseat to anyone as far as synthesis power in a board! But the difference for me is that Kurzweil is actually known for their synthesis! I was intrigued by V.A.S.T. at least 15 years ago, and have wanted a Kurz specifically for it's synthesis ever since then (finally got a PC4 about 4 years ago--the PC3 came afterwards). The MODX, on the other hand, doesn't tend to be thought of as a synthesizer. Through the Motif lineage, it was typically thought of as a rompler, and best known for it's acoustic emulations. Neither its marketing, nor the preset programming* showcases the synth side of things very well. This is starting to change with this latest generation of boards, as Yamaha has made a conscious decision to call the MODX and Montage "synthesizers" instead of "workstations"....but I still contend, the MODX is much more powerful synth than most people considering it may realize. There were a few YouTube videos by programmers/producers that really opened my eyes to what's under the hood. *Heck, neither the MODX or the Kurz really do themselves any favors in terms of preset programming, now that I think of it. I was very underwhelmed by the synth sounds on my PC4 out of the box 🤦♂️ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean M. H. Posted October 19 Share Posted October 19 Since you're open to used boards, I'll second AnotherScott in recommending the FA-07 as a consideration (as he said, avoid the FA-06, as the keys suck). The action on the FA-07 is significantly better than the Fantom-0 IMO... enough so that I contemplated not keeping the Fantom-07 when I first got it (I've since gotten used to it)...and since your primary concern is synth sounds, I don't think the Fantom-0 has much more to offer than the FA in that particular area. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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