Tom Petty/KLOS sued over "Last DJ"

[Jeff Klopmeyer]

More info

 

When Wagner and Ladd agreed the song would be used on the show, "there was implied both in-fact and by law" that the songwriter would be compensated if the song was used in any way other than as the theme song, the suit states.

 

But the following year, Wagner claims Ladd gave Petty the "demo" and that the rocker "promptly took the idea, theme, title, and overall 'feel' of the song and wrote and recorded his 'version' of the song, which he entitled 'The Last DJ.'"

 

The song was released by Warner Bros. that October, leaving the commercial value of Wagner's song "dead," the suit states.

 

The songwriter claims he would have earned at least $1.5 million from the exploitation of the song. He's asking for exemplary damages of $4.5 million.

===

 

Any comments from the peanut gallery?

 

In my opinion, a) it seems strange that Tom Petty would need to rip off the theme and b) I find it entirely possible that the guy did indeed write something thematically similar and Petty came up with a similar idea by happenstance.

 

Of course, if he wins, I'm going to have to sue everyone I ever showed a song to only to have a similar song pop up later.

 

- Jeff

[Tedster]

I suppose if he can prove he wrote the song before Petty marketed the idea, it's worth a shot.

 

Personally, although I agree with the sentiments, that's one of my least favorite "Petty" songs, and I consider myself a Petty fan.

[doug osborne]

Has anyone heard this song?

 

Did Ladd put down the ol' pipe long enough to remember to cue the theme song? Did Ladd ever use it as his theme song?

 

Didn't Wagner remember to register the copyright and performance rights?

 

Can't there be two songs about a DJ?

[Lee Flier]

Well... the writer is a dumbass if he didn't 1) copyright the song, 2) expect regular performance royalties if the song was used on the radio.

 

I too wonder whether Ladd ever actually used the song on the air. If so, the guy MIGHT have a shot at collecting some money from Petty, although I don't see how Ladd or the station figures in any wrongdoing.

 

And yeah there can certainly be two songs about the same subject. The case will hinge on whether the guy can prove Petty heard the song (as in Ladd gave him the demo) AND how much Petty's song actually sounds like this guy's song. If it's just the concept of the song and no lyrics or melody that were supposedly "ripped off," he doesn't have a case. These type of suits are pretty hard to win unless you've got a very strong case.

 

I do know too that Petty's handlers are very strict about not allowing unsolicited demos to reach him, because he fears exactly this kind of thing. So if Ladd gave him the demo and it had not been used on the air, that would definitely be a breach of his normal behavior.

[doug osborne]

Originally posted by Lee Flier:

... These type of suits are pretty hard to win unless you've got a very strong case.

 

...[/QB]

Yeah, but ask John Lennon or George Harrison's estates...

[Lee Flier]

Yeah, but those were pretty clear cut cases. We don't actually know yet how much the Petty song sounds like this guy's song, nor whether he can prove that Petty could have heard it.

[henrysb3]

Originally posted by Lee Flier:

We don't actually know yet how much the Petty song sounds like this guy's song, nor whether he can prove that Petty could have heard it.

 

We probably haven't heard it because he's afraid Bob Dylan or Bruce Springsteen will jump in and rip him off... There are only twelve tones in western music and only so many ways they can go together and not be similar. Look at what John Fogarty went through to be able to sing his own songs that nobody disputes he wrote. I thought that Prince was being pretentious with his name change, but now I see there was more to it than that. We live with a who-wants-to-be-a-millionaire mentality that keeps a lot of people busy reaching for the brass ring. If Petty was inspired or influenced by this guy's song, well, it happens, and not always intentionally. I don't see Tom Petty as overly wrapped up in his own majesty, but I've been wrong before.

 

Henry

[Jeff Klopmeyer]

Yup, that's the hinge of this thing.

 

If it doesn't have a very similar (if not exact) musical or lyrical vibe, it's going to be hard to get money based on a song theme being similar.

 

- Jeff

[doug osborne]

Have you heard "Call Me Mellow" from the brand-new Tears for Fears album? It's chorus melody is a large chunk of The La's/Sixpence... "There She Goes".

 

You can hear CMM on tearsforfears.net to see if you think there is an infringement.

[ihategarybettman]

I personally think the two parties came up with the song idea independently. I mean, the idea that modern radio sucks and that its formats are restrictive, unimaginative, and stifling is not exactly a new or seldom-expressed concept.

[Super 8]

What's kinda scary about this is that Petty could just pay the guy everything he's asking for and not break a sweat.

 

But this reminds me of something else.

 

Does anybody remember when Huey Lewis sued Ray Parker jr. over the 'Ghost Busters' theme for it's similarity to 'I want a New Drug'?

I believe Lewis won that case, didn't he? The only thing similar about those two songs was the bassline, and I didn't even think they were ALL THAT SIMILAR.

 

I like to watch VH-1 Classic from time to time, and what I have found interesting, is that Huey Lewis's "Do You Believe in Love" sounds pretty similar to "Sweet Talk'n Woman" by ELO.

 

Also, Richard Marx's "Should Have Know Better" sounds a lot like Don Henley's "Boys of Summer".

 

I just think it's interesting that there have apparently been no lawsuits over these songs, which sound very inspired by other songs, yet Huey Lewis shoots down Ray Parker jr. 'Ghost Busters' which isn't really much like Lewis's song at all. It's especially tacky when you consider that Lewis is guilty of doing the same thing.

 

That's the problem with copyrighting music. There really isn't room to get too picky.

 

I mean there have only been like maybe 12 original Blues songs ever written, right? How do you account for all the rest?

 

Business and art....I just don't think the two work well together.

[wraub]

Originally posted by Super 8:

 

Does anybody remember when Huey Lewis sued Ray Parker jr. over the 'Ghost Busters' theme for it's similarity to 'I want a New Drug'?

I believe Lewis won that case, didn't he? The only thing similar about those two songs was the bassline, and I didn't even think they were ALL THAT SIMILAR.

What's even worse is that they both ripped off a previous song.

Snakefinger, maybe? Anyone? I can't remember the song exactly. But it's out there...

 

Peace,

 

wraub

[InstituteOfNoise]

The whole key to proving infringement is "access". If the song is similar and there is proof that he gave it to Ladd, and that Ladd got it to Petty, then he has a good chance he'll win.

 

I've been up this alley abour 10 years ago. Due to circumstances I couldn't win. My partner had passed a copy off to a major label/pub co to a contact we knew, unbeknownst to me at the time. Fast forward 6 months my writing partner gets cancer and passes away. The guy at the label probably thinks, he's gone, who'd know not knowing he had a writing partner. Fast forward another 6 months... I start getting calls that my song is on MTV in heavy rotation. The tune was Top 30 and sold over a million copies. Rolling Stone mag even said that this tune was the best tune on the album. For obvious reasons I can't state who the artist is, but you'd all know would know who. If you hear both versions they are the same tune. Same title, same melody, except that the base concept is slightly different and our version is slower. I had a top music copyright atty take the case on contingency he felt it was so strong, but I had to pay all expenses, like musicologist, etc. I didn't have the dough then. Here's the kicker, all of my partners evidence is inadmissable because he is deceased and the song has to stand on the merit of the song. Because he gave it to them before it was actually copywritten, we could only sue for exact royaltyies and no punitive damages. The chances went from extremely high of winning to a 50/50 crapshoot.

 

Needless to say, after that everything that gets submitted gets proof of submission. That's just the reason labels don't take unsolicited material.

[kylen]

Ywah - and how about Wierd Al's stuff - it keeps reminding me of stuff I've heard somewhere before

 

I mean look at these lyrics - Jethro Bodean has justi-fi-kation I 'spect:

 

Huh, now lookie here people

Listen to my story

A little story 'bout a man named Jed

You know something?

That poor mountaineer

They say he barely kept his family fed

[doug osborne]

Originally posted by kylen:

Ywah - and how about Wierd Al's stuff - it keeps reminding me of stuff I've heard somewhere before

 

I mean look at these lyrics - Jethro Bodean has justi-fi-kation I 'spect:

 

Huh, now lookie here people

Listen to my story

A little story 'bout a man named Jed

You know something?

That poor mountaineer

They say he barely kept his family fed

Nah.

 

Parody is allowed under copyright law.

[Calfee Jones]

Wierd Al's stuff is parody - he gets permission from the publishers, but parody is a form of copyright infringment that is generally protected by the law.

 

AFAIK the Huey Lewis thing was pretty straightforward - apparently they tried to license a form of 'I want a new drug' and Lewis wouldn't do it, so they had Ray Parker write a new one. At the time 'I want a new drug' was climbing the charts 'Ghostbusters' came out, knocked it off the radio, and made it look like Lewis had ripped off Parker. I think it was the fact that the movie had already been interested in the Lewis song that Lewis won the case...

[Bunny Knutson]

Doug and Calfee,

 

Kylen was just joking about Weird Al. Yes, we know it's parody.

[Jotown]

Originally posted by Lee Flier:

Yeah, but those were pretty clear cut cases. We don't actually know yet how much the Petty song sounds like this guy's song, nor whether he can prove that Petty could have heard it.

Thats usually the issue. If the person suing Tom Petty can prove that Petty had "prior access" to the song (that he heard it) before he wrote his own, and that it resembles the song in question, he will have a good chance of success.

 

Don't know for sure how it should go though.

[Aaron Carey]

"For obvious reasons I can't state who the artist is, but you'd all know would know who. "

 

squeaky wheel gets the grease

[Jotown]

Originally posted by Calfee Jones:

'I want a new drug' was climbing the charts 'Ghostbusters' came out, knocked it off the radio, and made it look like Lewis had ripped off Parker. I think it was the fact that the movie had already been interested in the Lewis song that Lewis won the case...

The fact that the producers had used "I want a new drug" in the mock-up of the movie, and that Ray Parker Jr. saw the mock up, and heard the song being used for that purpose, sealed the deal.

 

Prior access was the determining factor. It didn't help Mr. Parker that he pretty much copied the song verbatum, but that's another story.

[fantasticsound]

Originally posted by Super 8:

...Does anybody remember when Huey Lewis sued Ray Parker jr. over the 'Ghost Busters' theme for it's similarity to 'I want a New Drug'?

I believe Lewis won that case, didn't he? The only thing similar about those two songs was the bassline, and I didn't even think they were ALL THAT SIMILAR...

Super8, not only do I remember this from when it was current, I was sitting in my dorm room in college when someone started blaring their stereo 7 or 8 rooms away. I couldn't hear anything but kick and bass line. When I went to tell him to turn it down I discovered what I thought was I Want A New Drug was, in fact, Ghostbusters. That pretty much proved to me that Huey Lewis had good reason to complain, given the timing of each song. I don't know the particulars of the case, but I seem to recall there was specific evidence beyond the similarities that pointed to Ray Parker Jr. having used I Want A New Drug as an inspiration for his song.

 

{Pre-post edit: Jotown jogged my memory with his post regarding the mock up. That's what I get for writing a post inbetween tasks at work. }

[Anderton]

Well Petty already ripped off Roger McGuinn's voice, so...

 

If the only real similarity is the title, there's not much you can do. I walked into a book store the other day and saw a book titled "Home Recording for Musicians for Dummies." My "Home Recording for Musicians" book predated it by what, almost three decades, has been revised, and remains in print. Bult there's nothing I can do.

 

But if the song is as close to Wagner's as "My Sweet Lord" was to "He's So Fine," then Houston, we have a problem.

[fantasticsound]

Originally posted by Anderton:

...But if the song is as close to Wagner's as "My Sweet Lord" was to "He's So Fine," then Houston, we have a problem.

If]/i], and only if, as has been previously mentioned, they can prove Petty had access to Wagner's song prior to writing the other song.

 

That was a big key in the Harrison case. Even if he never consciously paid attention to "He's So Fine", George could hardly claim he'd never heard it, as popular as it had been. (He might have gotten away with it if the songs were from the present. I can honestly say I've never heard, nor have I been exposed to, virtually any songs that win Grammy's and other awards each year. I don't choose to pay attention to those genres, and with radio as clearly defined as it is now, it would be harder to prove I heard a rap or "r&b" song unless it was used in a commercial, etc.

[kylen]

Originally posted by devilBunny:

Doug and Calfee,

 

Kylen was just joking about Weird Al. Yes, we know it's parody.

[songrytr]

Originally posted by wredwrum wraub:

What's even worse is that they both ripped off a previous song.

Snakefinger, maybe? Anyone? I can't remember the song exactly. But it's out there...

That would be Soulfinger by the BarKays...never thought of the similarities but now that you mention it....

[wraub]

Originally posted by songrytr:

Originally posted by wredwrum wraub:

What's even worse is that they both ripped off a previous song.

Snakefinger, maybe? Anyone? I can't remember the song exactly. But it's out there...

That would be Soulfinger by the BarKays...never thought of the similarities but now that you mention it....

Thanks, I think that's it!

I've always thought them pretty similar, too.

 

Peace,

 

wraub

[Super 8]

Originally posted by Jotown:

It didn't help Mr. Parker that he pretty much copied the song verbatum, but that's another story.

Verbatim? Aside from a similar bassline the songs are completely different. Different emphasis, different melody, different chord progressions... They are different songs.

 

Calling copyright infringement because of a bassline is like calling infringement over a drumbeat....and how many songs have the same drumbeat?

 

For your reference:

(This links to the page, you'll have to select the song)

 

Ghostbusters

 

I Want a New Drug

 

And as an added bonus, here is 'Pop Muzik' by M, which came out well before either 'Ghostbusters', or 'I Want a New Drug' were ever released. Hear any similarities???

Pop Muzik

 

Like I said, the lawsuit was pure BS, and especially tacky when you consider that another one of Lewis's songs ripped off ELO. It's a bunch of crap. Ray Parker jr. got screwed on that deal.

[Lee Flier]

More funny "song ripoff" cases:

 

- A lot of people have pointed out over the years that the Doors' "Hello I Love You" is a rip of the Kinks' "All Day and All of the Night." Ray Manzarek actually mentioned this in an interview a few years back and it went something like this:

 

Ray: Well, yeah, I guess those songs do sound pretty similar. Sorry, Ray [Davies].

 

Interviewer: Actually, Ray Davies says he doesn't hear the similarity at all.

 

Ray: Really? Oh! Well uh... forget I said that, Ray!

 

And speaking of Tom Petty ripping people off... one of the more blatant ripoffs was "Breakdown" which is a total rip of a pretty obscure Animals song called "Cheating." And it was obvious Petty'd heard the song, cuz it was on the same Animals album that featured "Don't Bring Me Down," which Petty and the Heartbreakers covered (and which was a favorite album both of mine and the Heartbreakers' drummer Stan Lynch).

 

Anyhow, I used to see Eric Burdon a lot when I lived in L.A., and when he found out I knew the Heartbreakers he said he was a big fan. Ever the smartass, I said, "So I guess you're OK with the fact that Petty totally ripped off your song." And Eric said, "Yeah, no big deal. How many blues guys have I ripped off?"

 

SOME people are cool about these things.

[fantasticsound]

Originally posted by Super 8:

Originally posted by Jotown:

It didn't help Mr. Parker that he pretty much copied the song verbatum, but that's another story.

Verbatim? Aside from a similar bassline the songs are completely different. Different emphasis, different melody, different chord progressions... They are different songs...

Whoa! Slow down, Super8. I tend to agree with Jotown. Listen to the lead in to the line in Ghostbusters that ends in Ray Parker Jr. saying, "I ain't 'fraid of no ghost." and compare it to the musical bridge of I Want A New Drug. I think there's more than a slight similarity. Add that to the whole rhythm section, melody similarities and the hard evidence that Ray Parker Jr. heard the Huey Lewis song in a mock-up of the movie and you have a pretty strong case for infringement.

 

My understanding is that most music infringement cases of this type are dismissed. These are very hard (and very expensive to pursue) lawsuits. Especially since library music companies, among others, deliberately copy the essence of popular songs in an attempt to create "original" works that evoke a connection to the famous piece. After Chariots of Fire hit big on the pop charts every library music company had 5 or 10 similar pieces ready for inexpensive license for advertisements and other media.

[Henchman]

I remeber when the Huey ewis thing happened. The problem was, that they were supposoed to do the theme song. Then submitted said song, and next thing they know, It's Ray Parker using their song.