Corehan Posted September 6 Share Posted September 6 Hello Guys, I'm about to order a Kurzweil K2700, but I never touched one and don't have a possibility to test it in a store before buying, so, I need a little help from you. I know that PS4, K2500/2600 and the other Kurzweil workstations have quite similar functionalities, so I address any, who have a digital workstation from Kurzweil, the following questions: Does Kurzweil workstation allow setting a root note to a key zone (directly or via transposing)? Can I have several zones with same notes? For example, I want to copy 4th octave into 3rd to have identical notes in both. Does workstation allow reverting of notes in any zone via Note Map -> Invert, or it is possible to invert only the whole keyboard? Will I hear the changes described above through stereo headphones connected directly to the workstation, or this changes are applied only to MIDI output? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corehan Posted September 6 Author Share Posted September 6 Here is one of the setups I want K2700 to be able to do : Create zone E3-C3, assign to it notes e4-c5, revert notes in this zone. Create zone D2-D3, assign notes d5-d6, revert notes. Create zone E1-C2, assign notes e6-c7, revert notes. Create zone C1-D1, assign notes d7-e7, revert notes. Create zone A0-B0, assign notes f7-g7, revert notes. Thus, starting from C4, I will have notes from the right half of the keyboard in reverse order: e4-c5, d5-d6, e6-c7, d7-e7, f7-g7, so the keyboard will be mirrored at D4. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delaware Dave Posted September 7 Share Posted September 7 Is there a reason we are talking about this same subject in a 2nd post? Quote 57 Hammond B3; 69 Hammond L100P; 68 Leslie 122; Kurzweil Forte7 & PC3; M-Audio Code 61; Voce V5+; Neo Vent; EV ELX112P; GSI Gemini & Burn Delaware Dave Exit93band Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thethirdapple Posted September 7 Share Posted September 7 Probably lack of using the search function on the forum 🤓 And maybe forgot a thread had already been created… by themselves let there be unity… moderators be moderating. PEACE _ _ _ Quote When musical machines communicate, we had better listen… http://youtube.com/@ecoutezpourentendre Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Williams Posted September 7 Share Posted September 7 I will assume English is not your primary language, no disrespect intended. I'm not sure what "revert" means in this context; Did you mean "Reverse" or "Invert", with the scale going from high to low? On Kurzweil, that is done by editing the "Key Tracking" parameter to be a negative number, like -100. #1: Yes, you can change sample roots. #2: Yes, definitely, multiple zones can have same notes. #3: Each zone has its own key map, no problem. #4> MIDI has nothing to do with what I've just written. These are all internal voice editing parameters. 1 Quote -Tom Williams {First Name} {at} AirNetworking {dot} com PC4-7, PX-5S, AX-Edge, PC361 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delaware Dave Posted September 7 Share Posted September 7 2 hours ago, Thethirdapple said: Probably lack of using the search function on the forum 🤓 And maybe forgot a thread had already been created… by themselves let there be unity… moderators be moderating. He created both topIcs one day apart. 1 Quote 57 Hammond B3; 69 Hammond L100P; 68 Leslie 122; Kurzweil Forte7 & PC3; M-Audio Code 61; Voce V5+; Neo Vent; EV ELX112P; GSI Gemini & Burn Delaware Dave Exit93band Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corehan Posted September 8 Author Share Posted September 8 21 hours ago, Delaware Dave said: Is there a reason we are talking about this same subject in a 2nd post? That's not the same subject - I'm asking about specific functions of Kurzweil workstation here, not about how to mirror the keyboard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corehan Posted September 8 Author Share Posted September 8 21 hours ago, Tom Williams said: I will assume English is not your primary language, no disrespect intended. I'm not sure what "revert" means in this context; Did you mean "Reverse" or "Invert", with the scale going from high to low? On Kurzweil, that is done by editing the "Key Tracking" parameter to be a negative number, like -100. #1: Yes, you can change sample roots. #2: Yes, definitely, multiple zones can have same notes. #3: Each zone has its own key map, no problem. #4> MIDI has nothing to do with what I've just written. These are all internal voice editing parameters. I'm not sure what "revert" means in this context; Did you mean "Reverse" or "Invert", with the scale going from high to low? On Kurzweil, that is done by editing the "Key Tracking" parameter to be a negative number, like -100. By revert I meant "Note Map -> Invert" function which turns notes upside down, so, the octave became reversed: starts with B and ends with C. #1: Yes, you can change sample roots. Do you mean I have yo use my own samples? I wanted to avoid this, just create a zone, set the root note or transpose until I get the note range I need. #3: Each zone has its own key map, no problem. Key map or note map? I need a separate note map for each zone, to apply Invert function of Note Map. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thethirdapple Posted September 8 Share Posted September 8 2 hours ago, Corehan said: #1: Yes, you can change sample roots. Do you mean I have yo use my own samples? I wanted to avoid this, just create a zone, set the root note or transpose until I get the note range I need. I read Toms reply as: Which ever root sample is currently assigned, it will be “transposed” or inverted. So, its root sample remains the same sample but CAN be changed as desired… Page 195 (5-1) of the user manual… sorry only linked to the english version https://kurzweil.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/09/K2700-Musicians-Guide-Rev-003.pdf PEACE _ _ _ Quote When musical machines communicate, we had better listen… http://youtube.com/@ecoutezpourentendre Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corehan Posted September 8 Author Share Posted September 8 1 hour ago, Thethirdapple said: I read Toms reply as: Which ever root sample is currently assigned, it will be “transposed” or inverted. So, its root sample remains the same sample but CAN be changed as desired… Page 195 (5-1) of the user manual… sorry only linked to the english version https://kurzweil.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/09/K2700-Musicians-Guide-Rev-003.pdf PEACE _ _ _ Very nice. So, I can select a range of keys, from C1 to C4, for example, and set the root note to be E4, which means C1 will play E4, and C4 will play E7. Am I right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thethirdapple Posted September 8 Share Posted September 8 19 minutes ago, Corehan said: Very nice. So, I can select a range of keys, from C1 to C4, for example, and set the root note to be E4, which means C1 will play E4, and C4 will play E7. Am I right? As I read Toms reply : yes If you have an opportunity to read the manual this may illustrate a means to achieve your exact goal, which may require setting up a Multi. While I fully understand that which you would like to accomplish, there may not be someone who has done exactly the same thing. sounds groovy and I can see all sorts of reasons to set up zones or maps in this way. PEACE _ _ _ Quote When musical machines communicate, we had better listen… http://youtube.com/@ecoutezpourentendre Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corehan Posted September 8 Author Share Posted September 8 59 minutes ago, Thethirdapple said: As I read Toms reply : yes If you have an opportunity to read the manual this may illustrate a means to achieve your exact goal, which may require setting up a Multi. While I fully understand that which you would like to accomplish, there may not be someone who has done exactly the same thing. sounds groovy and I can see all sorts of reasons to set up zones or maps in this way. PEACE _ _ _ Then the next question - can I invert notes in a keys range? For example, I created a key zone from C1-C4, assigned them notes E4-E7 via setting the root note as E4. And now I want to use Note Map -> Invert to have this range inverted, so, key C1 plays note E7, and C5 plays E4. Is it possible? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Williams Posted September 9 Share Posted September 9 8 hours ago, Corehan said: Then the next question - can I invert notes in a keys range? For example, I created a key zone from C1-C4, assigned them notes E4-E7 via setting the root note as E4. And now I want to use Note Map -> Invert to have this range inverted, so, key C1 plays note E7, and C5 plays E4. Is it possible? Yes it's possible, but I see a disconnect here: In the abstract you're getting into fairly deep fiddling with keymaps (which are how you access pre-existing samples in a Kurzweil) apparently without having touched the programming interface for even a simple controller assignment. Be warned: "Yes it can be done" does not necessarily mean "Yes, you'll be able to achieve this on day two." The tasks you are proposing are things I've read about, and am confident of -- but have never done myself in some 10 years of Kurzweil ownership, simply because I have had no need to do so. 2 Quote -Tom Williams {First Name} {at} AirNetworking {dot} com PC4-7, PX-5S, AX-Edge, PC361 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corehan Posted September 9 Author Share Posted September 9 16 hours ago, Tom Williams said: Yes it's possible, but I see a disconnect here: In the abstract you're getting into fairly deep fiddling with keymaps (which are how you access pre-existing samples in a Kurzweil) apparently without having touched the programming interface for even a simple controller assignment. Be warned: "Yes it can be done" does not necessarily mean "Yes, you'll be able to achieve this on day two." The tasks you are proposing are things I've read about, and am confident of -- but have never done myself in some 10 years of Kurzweil ownership, simply because I have had no need to do so. It means, it is possible on the paper, but could be impossible in life... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJkeys Posted September 9 Share Posted September 9 I always download the manual for any instrument I am planning to purchase. Makes sure you know what it can and cannot do- -dj Quote iMac i7 13.5.2 Studio One 5.5.2 Nord Stage 3 Nord Wave 2 Nektar T4 Drawmer DL 241 Focusrite ISA Two Focusrite Clarett 8 Pre Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corehan Posted September 9 Author Share Posted September 9 3 hours ago, DJkeys said: I always download the manual for any instrument I am planning to purchase. Makes sure you know what it can and cannot do- -dj I did. From where, do you think, I know about Note Map -> Invert function? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Franz Schiller Posted September 10 Share Posted September 10 19 hours ago, Corehan said: It means, it is possible on the paper, but could be impossible in life... It IS possible. But it's not going to be super easy to learn a Kurzweil right out of the box. You need to get used to the general flow of the machine first. It's a steep learning curve. I've been learning VAST for almost 20 years. It's amazing and beautiful and a bit difficult at first. But your mileage may vary. Maybe you're a genius and it will be easy! 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corehan Posted September 10 Author Share Posted September 10 3 hours ago, Franz Schiller said: It IS possible. But it's not going to be super easy to learn a Kurzweil right out of the box. You need to get used to the general flow of the machine first. It's a steep learning curve. I've been learning VAST for almost 20 years. It's amazing and beautiful and a bit difficult at first. But your mileage may vary. Maybe you're a genius and it will be easy! I have found on Amazon reviews this: Here is the easiest method if you want to make the whole keyboard left handed - i.e. globally for all Programs in Program mode: 1) press Setup mode button 2) select Setup #126 Internal Voices 3) press Edit 4) press KEYVEL 5) set the 'Notemap' parameter to "Inverse" 5) press SAVE 6) initially the system prompts you to save things to the first empty spot it finds, which is great but in this instance we specifically need to save this back on top of the original slot #126. So at this step manually type back in 126 (+ enter) on the numeric keypad. A warning will come up about editing this Setup - ignore it. 7) Press Save to finalize Now you can go back to Program mode and all programs will have notes reversed on the keys. Bear in mind that the D key (it being the 4th note out of 7) remains the same (D), but the C key becomes E and the E key becomes C - okay? In other words the keyboard becomes a mirror image of a right handed keyboard so all the notes all read from the other direction (right to left not left to right)... and this is absolutely PERFECT for lefty players. It takes some time to get your head around it - but it's very worthwhile. It doesn't sound to need 20 years of learning VAST, so, you can test my idea quite fast, but you just don't want to help me. ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Williams Posted September 11 Share Posted September 11 9 hours ago, Corehan said: Here is the easiest method if you want to make the whole keyboard left handed - i.e. globally for all Programs in Program mode: ... and this is absolutely PERFECT for lefty players. It takes some time to get your head around it - but it's very worthwhile. It doesn't sound to need 20 years of learning VAST, so, you can test my idea quite fast, but you just don't want to help me. ) 1. describing how to do it globally, versus zone by zone, was not what you originally requested. 2. Every post I saw here was trying to help you, sometimes by trying to keep you from wasting time on deep programming when you are apparently a novice. Due to OP's posted ingratitude towards this community, I'm done with this thread. Quote -Tom Williams {First Name} {at} AirNetworking {dot} com PC4-7, PX-5S, AX-Edge, PC361 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corehan Posted September 11 Author Share Posted September 11 6 hours ago, Tom Williams said: 1. describing how to do it globally, versus zone by zone, was not what you originally requested. 2. Every post I saw here was trying to help you, sometimes by trying to keep you from wasting time on deep programming when you are apparently a novice. Due to OP's posted ingratitude towards this community, I'm done with this thread. >1. describing how to do it globally, versus zone by zone, was not what you originally requested. That is why I asked for a simple test: select a zone on keyboard and try to apply Note Map -> Invert over that zone. Because I'm not sure this is applicable to a zone. >2. Every post I saw here was trying to help you, sometimes by trying to keep you from wasting time on deep programming when you are apparently a novice. I asked for a simple test, not teaching me VAST and other things I do not need at the moment. And, by the way, some posts are completely off topic, like why I duplicated the thread or why I need a mirrored keyboard. So, this is absolutely not the help I asked for. >Due to OP's posted ingratitude towards this community, I'm done with this thread. That's the problem, man - you don't listen to me, even I'm asking for simple things, telling me I'm a novice and trying to teach me (even I didn't asked of this at all), but you tell me that I AM disrespecting you. I asked for a very simple three-steps test, which can be done in five minutes. But no one wants to spend five minutes to do this - instead, people waste much more time telling me the things I haven't asked for. No disrespect, just trying to keep on things I exactly need to be confirmed, not the things you consider to be right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thethirdapple Posted September 11 Share Posted September 11 looks like you have your answer… cant wait to hear how it works out for your practicing technique… As someone who loves to find out answers to questions I may not have even have thought about nor intend to implement is a wonderful way to keep those “grey cells “ active. Problem solving and puzzles are fun even when the finished picture is irrelevant. personally this “life” quote is possible applicable here: Quote “Give a man a fish, and he will be hungry again to-morrow; teach him to catch a fish, and he will be richer all his life.” Many variations of this “truism” are in each of our cultures. People used to ask me why I had soooo many technical reference books. simple: i may not known the answer but I know where to find out and learn. It is often more rewarding to “find” the answer oneself rather than be given an answer. Doing the “work” will be bring understanding and may(will) lead to new methods never though of before. it is often tru that there are MANY methods to achieve a “single” goal. That goal might look slightly different to each person and so the answer may not seem to fit correctly to oneself. FOOD FOR THOUGHT… My advice: be curious and open to other peoples questions, you will discover things you may not have thought of and in the end dont rely too much on others for the “correct” answer… GO EASY ON FORUM PARTICIPANTS TRYING TO HELP language and culture is not easily translated “on-line”. PEACE _ _ _ Quote When musical machines communicate, we had better listen… http://youtube.com/@ecoutezpourentendre Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corehan Posted September 11 Author Share Posted September 11 15 minutes ago, Thethirdapple said: looks like you have your answer… cant wait to hear how it works out for your practicing technique… As someone who loves to find out answers to questions I may not have even have thought about nor intend to implement is a wonderful way to keep those “grey cells “ active. Problem solving and puzzles are fun even when the finished picture is irrelevant. personally this “life” quote is possible applicable here: Many variations of this “truism” are in each of our cultures. People used to ask me why I had soooo many technical reference books. simple: i may not known the answer but I know where to find out and learn. It is often more rewarding to “find” the answer oneself rather than be given an answer. Doing the “work” will be bring understanding and may(will) lead to new methods never though of before. it is often tru that there are MANY methods to achieve a “single” goal. That goal might look slightly different to each person and so the answer may not seem to fit correctly to oneself. FOOD FOR THOUGHT… My advice: be curious and open to other peoples questions, you will discover things you may not have thought of and in the end dont rely too much on others for the “correct” answer… GO EASY ON FORUM PARTICIPANTS TRYING TO HELP language and culture is not easily translated “on-line”. PEACE _ _ _ Reading books about how to program a device does not help much without having that device - that's the problem. And I completely understand, that there are some other ways to achieve my goal. More than that - I completely understand, that, having possibility to assign any sound on any key I can make any setup I need. I don't even need a Kurzweil workstation for this - any other workstation will suit: Nord Stage, Roland Fantom, Korg Kronos, even Yamahas, though I dislike Yamahas. But this can take days, that is why I want Kurzweil, because, theoretically, it allows what I need to be done in a matter of minutes, not days. The only thing I'm asking, is to check that it works not only on paper. But people are talking about everything, except what I need exactly. Comon, guys, is it really so hard to spend five minutes to check what I'm kindly asking for? You just spent much more time typing that message which does not contain any useful information about the features of Kurzweil I need. I do know, how to search - that is why I'm here, because I already read some threads and saw that people in here know Kurzweil. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thethirdapple Posted September 11 Share Posted September 11 Ahhhhhh, now it becomes almost crystal clear… You are asking someone TO DO your idea so as to validate its ability prior to yourself investing in a board. sure, but thats a rather “big ask”, in reality from a general forum. There must be forums specific to the products you are interested in, which I will, with respect, not presume you have already posted on… PEACE _ _ _ Quote When musical machines communicate, we had better listen… http://youtube.com/@ecoutezpourentendre Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ABECK Posted September 11 Share Posted September 11 I'm thinking the easiest way would be a multi. The inversions would be handled in the patches and the ranges would be defined in the multi. I'll see if I can play around with it tonight. 1 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corehan Posted September 11 Author Share Posted September 11 7 hours ago, ABECK said: I'm thinking the easiest way would be a multi. The inversions would be handled in the patches and the ranges would be defined in the multi. I'll see if I can play around with it tonight. That would be very nice of you! 💗 But, please, tell me, if the result is audible through the headphones or audio boxes, connected directly to the workstation, without need of some additional MIDI devices. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corehan Posted September 11 Author Share Posted September 11 8 hours ago, Thethirdapple said: Ahhhhhh, now it becomes almost crystal clear… You are asking someone TODO your idea so as to validate its ability prior to yourself investing in a board. sure, but thats a rather “big ask”, in reality from a general forum. There must be forums specific to the products you are interested in, which I will, with respect, not presume you have already posted on… PEACE _ _ _ I did, but nobody respond at all... ( Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ABECK Posted September 12 Share Posted September 12 16 hours ago, Corehan said: That would be very nice of you! 💗 But, please, tell me, if the result is audible through the headphones or audio boxes, connected directly to the workstation, without need of some additional MIDI devices. I posted a description and vid to a topic in the Facebook VAST group, as I think it was yours. But just in case.... I just tested out the first 2 steps, but there's no reason you couldn't apply the same process to your other steps. Create zone E3-C3, assign to it notes e4-c5, revert notes in this zone. Create zone D2-D3, assign notes d5-d6, revert notes. Here's how I approached this (there are likely other ways to do it as well). 1. Created a program and set the key tracking to -100 (the default is +100). This inverts the keys across the keyboard. 2. Created a multi and assigned the program above to both zones 1 and 2. 3. Set the key ranges for each zone to match what you have listed above (I think you meant C3-E3, instead of E3-C3) 3. Transposed each layer so the starting note corresponds to what you have listed above. Note: the process would be different for programs using the VA engine and the KB3 engine (not sure it's possible with KB3). Yes, of course this is all audible on the outputs of the Kurzweil....both headphones and A/B outputs. This would NOT behave the same way for an external MIDI device, because the inversions are happening in the program, not the multi. 2 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malcs Myth Posted September 12 Share Posted September 12 I just had a go at this and I think it works, simply using the Notemap ‘Inverse’ setting. Zone1 is inverted Zone2 is as normal. I transposed zone 1 so that it aligns at D4, and now you can play mirrored style and you get the pitches ascending, note by note, (even though you are playing physically down the keyboard), in alignment with zone 2 which plays upwards. This only works becuase D4 is aligned. (And I set the zone ranges so that D4 is the only overlapping physical key in each zone). See my longer post on the Mastering VAST forum (where the OP also asked his question). (If thats ok to mention another forum here - Or I can copy what I wrote and post it back here). 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corehan Posted September 12 Author Share Posted September 12 3 hours ago, Malcs Myth said: I just had a go at this and I think it works, simply using the Notemap ‘Inverse’ setting. Zone1 is inverted Zone2 is as normal. I transposed zone 1 so that it aligns at D4, and now you can play mirrored style and you get the pitches ascending, note by note, (even though you are playing physically down the keyboard), in alignment with zone 2 which plays upwards. This only works becuase D4 is aligned. (And I set the zone ranges so that D4 is the only overlapping physical key in each zone). See my longer post on the Mastering VAST forum (where the OP also asked his question). (If thats ok to mention another forum here - Or I can copy what I wrote and post it back here). WOW!!! Kurzweil allows zones to overlap??? That's AMAZING!!! I'll definitely buy a K27000, no matter, how long I'll pay the loan. 😃 My dear friend, you are fantastic person!!! 💓 Many-many-manu huge thanks!!! Can you, please, do me another great favor and post the exact steps you did to achieve this? It also would be very helpful to anybody, who will want to create something like this in the future. Please! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corehan Posted September 12 Author Share Posted September 12 8 hours ago, ABECK said: I posted a description and vid to a topic in the Facebook VAST group, as I think it was yours. But just in case.... I just tested out the first 2 steps, but there's no reason you couldn't apply the same process to your other steps. Create zone E3-C3, assign to it notes e4-c5, revert notes in this zone. Create zone D2-D3, assign notes d5-d6, revert notes. Here's how I approached this (there are likely other ways to do it as well). 1. Created a program and set the key tracking to -100 (the default is +100). This inverts the keys across the keyboard. 2. Created a multi and assigned the program above to both zones 1 and 2. 3. Set the key ranges for each zone to match what you have listed above (I think you meant C3-E3, instead of E3-C3) 3. Transposed each layer so the starting note corresponds to what you have listed above. Note: the process would be different for programs using the VA engine and the KB3 engine (not sure it's possible with KB3). Yes, of course this is all audible on the outputs of the Kurzweil....both headphones and A/B outputs. This would NOT behave the same way for an external MIDI device, because the inversions are happening in the program, not the multi. Thanks a lot, my friend!!! 💗 Especially for the algorithm and video. This world cannot die, until there are such people, like you, in it. 👍 Will save your post at facebook immediately. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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