New Hardware Synths...Where is the Music?

[Bill H.]

1 hour ago, marino said:

I don't see the need to return to synthpop/new wave; I think there's some good electronic music around. Not all of it, but there are plenty of interesting artists. Not mainsteam "pop", but certainly "popular".  

 

 

Well it's returned whether you want it or not 😃 At least tracks that are heavily influenced by synthpop. They chart all the time. This one spent several weeks at #1 on the Billboard Hot 100 until it was recently supplanted by A Bar Song. And Bar Song... well that's a subject for another day. 

 

Edit: The music starts at about a minute in. 

[ProfD]

Electronic music has been firmly established for several decades. Synths and drum machines laid the foundation for it. 

 

Synths can still be an integral part of a live band. No sequencer required.😎

[ElmerJFudd]

15 minutes ago, Bill H. said:

 

Well it's returned whether you want it or not 😃 At least tracks that are heavily influenced by synthpop. They chart all the time. This one spent several weeks at #1 on the Billboard Hot 100 until it was recently supplanted by A Bar Song. And Bar Song... well that's a subject for another day. 

 

Edit: The music starts at about a minute in. 

Advertising suggests Carpenter did a VR concert for Meta (Zuckerberg’s thing) where you need Meta Quest 2 goggles or something.  I’m still trying to figure out how our earthly virtual reality works, but, there you go - a new way to connect with fans that doesn’t involve touring and probably pays better than Spotify.  🤷‍♂️ 

 

On the other side of the coin, the BBC orchestra has been doing little shows with pop artists like S. Carpenter and Pet Shop Boys - mix of live players and sequenced stuff it looks like. 
 

 

 

[CEB]

The thing that stands out to me is in more modern synth based Pop the masses do not shy away from very busy,  cluttered or complex musical tapestries.   The production on some of the newer stuff is really involved.  This wasn't as much the case in the 80s.  Off the top of my head synth heavy music that appealed to the listening public was rather simplistic.  Some of the layering got thicker due to increased polyphony and MIDI but there were not a ton of counterpoints and lots of variant parts.  The bands that did so do not seem to have achieve huge commercial success.  In the 80's The Buggles were genius.  There stuff was crazy complex. But, other than Video Killed the Radio Star I don't think the band became part of the lexicon.

 

Take some of the typical Pop tunes we did in the last 10 year, there was a shit ton of stuff going on.      Things like Lady Gaga's Edge of Glory, Titanium, Firework or the later B sections of Funhouse ... Titanium was a bitch to program.  It took me a long time to get the side chain compression right.   If I remember correctly Bad Romance was 186 Pro Tools tracks.

 

 

[CrossRhodes]

On 8/2/2024 at 12:35 PM, ProfD said:

Sure.  The sound of synthesis is prevalent in modern music. 

 

Nothing like the 1980s when synth-oriented artists and bands were top of the charts and selling out shows.😎

The Weeknd is one of my favorite “pop” artists. Can’t imagine his music being anymore synth dominated than it already is.
 

This video only has a billion and a half views.
 

.

[CrossRhodes]

Repeat post

[CyberGene]

I don’t think it was jazz and fusion artists that really explored the depths of synthesis. Those were kick-ass musicians and they were more about what notes they played and how expressively, rather than relying on extravagant and varied synthesis techniques. Lyle Mays might be a certain exception. However, it’s the Electronica and later EDM artists that relied on synth sounds kinda more than on music content. 
 

But actually I dare to believe synth possibilities are generally exhausted. Sure, you have endless possibilities with all the possible parameters of all the available synth methods and synths but ultimately they all fall into specific categories such as pads, leads, bells, bass, etc. There are subcategories and moods, etc (look at the Arturia Analog Lab browser for instance), however there’s roughly up to a thousand (or even less) different sounds and anything else is just a slight variation of it. 

[stoken6]

10 hours ago, ElmerJFudd said:

Look how cheaply Charlie xcx does it - she sells tickets to a show she’s just present for.  She doesn’t have to do a thing.  No singing, No choreography, no dance troupe.   Just her playing her album.  100 euro.  It could be the most boring show ever hosted, but she’s laughing all the way to the bank.  

€100 to watch one person press play, and nobody else do anything? No thanks. That's the archetypal boring, non-risk-taking, non-performance-based gig I would avoid like the plague. 

 

Cheers, Mike.

[ElmerJFudd]

53 minutes ago, stoken6 said:

€100 to watch one person press play, and nobody else do anything? No thanks. That's the archetypal boring, non-risk-taking, non-performance-based gig I would avoid like the plague. 

 

Cheers, Mike.

Worse than playing along with a DJ at a Gen Z wedding.  😉

[rogs]

3 hours ago, CyberGene said:

........  Sure, you have endless possibilities with all the possible parameters of all the available synth methods and synths but ultimately they all fall into specific categories such as pads, leads, bells, bass, etc. There are subcategories and moods, etc (look at the Arturia Analog Lab browser for instance), however there’s roughly up to a thousand (or even less) different sounds and anything else is just a slight variation of it. 

 Drawbar combinations are even worse.....  Hammond say there are about 253,000,000 possible combinations...

 ...There are only about 10 that make any real diffenrce!  

[Tusker]

The live performance synthesizer is an OP character in a human drama. You remember those OP (Overpowered) characters who cannot enjoy the typical underdog story that we humans love? The synthesizer is not Luke Skywalker the underdog. It is Rey, who despite being an orphan is so OP in the force, she can do almost anything!! This extreme power is so scary that the best thing you can do at the end of her story arc is to bury the OP. Bury it for a bit along with any lightsabers you might have.

 

OP musical instruments face fear and loathing precisely because of their OP. In the middle of the 19th century, Adolphe Sax created the saxophone which had much of the power of brass and all of the flexibility of woodwinds, along with its own unique charms. He set out to prove it was OP and he did, but the classical musicians guilds promptly refused to play it and except for a handful of well established composers, the saxophone was written out of classical music. Buried, in a sense like Rey's light sabers.

 

The synth too is OP. The highest note? It can play that. The lowest note? It can play that too. Rhythmic patterns? Check. Lead voice? Check. And in prog rock and jazz fusion, genres many of us love, it got to show off it's amazing OP powers.

 

Bring on the fear and loathing. An instrument which begins its journey celebrated by the immortal Leonard Bernstein is a decade later listed as not being used (!), by the equally immortal Queen. 

 

But OP characters can have a renaissance.

 

The saxophone was used in classically non-adjacent American genres like Jazz and Bebop which were isolated enough that they could nurture the instrument. It drew the crowds. It fired the imagination. Then came the night when Charlie Parker reunited with and blew the socks off the culture which had rejected the saxophone in the first place. 

 

It may take trial and error, but synthesizers too will have a renaissance in live performed music and not as mere backdrop. They are simply too gifted. Perhaps it's going to be in a Jazz or Jazz adjacent genre. I don't know.

 

What I do know is that buried lightsabers get dug up by accident.

[Jim Alfredson]

7 hours ago, CyberGene said:

I don’t think it was jazz and fusion artists that really explored the depths of synthesis. Those were kick-ass musicians and they were more about what notes they played and how expressively, rather than relying on extravagant and varied synthesis techniques. Lyle Mays might be a certain exception. However, it’s the Electronica and later EDM artists that relied on synth sounds kinda more than on music content.

I see your point but certainly one could argue that Herbie was using synths as texture in jazz. And Zawinul was all about trying to emulate an organic, almost acoustic nature to synthesized sounds. He was a craftsman.

But regardless, that's kind of my point: There is a lot of fertile ground to explore there in jazz.

[CyberGene]

28 minutes ago, Jim Alfredson said:

I see your point but certainly one could argue that Herbie was using synths as texture in jazz. And Zawinul was all about trying to emulate an organic, almost acoustic nature to synthesized sounds. He was a craftsman.

That’s true, not denying it. I was especially fascinated with some of the soundscapes in Chick Corea Electric Band which I think were probably made on a DX7, for instance:

 

 

But I think the most interesting synthesis experiments were made in other genres. But even there (and to go back to the main topic) there’s only been so much that can be created by synths, I think it’s a wrong idea that there are some undiscovered sounds and patches that are suddenly going to make any impact and become staples. 

[ProfD]

9 hours ago, CrossRhodes said:

The Weeknd is one of my favorite “pop” artists. Can’t imagine his music being anymore synth dominated than it already is.

Right. We've already established there's plenty sound of synth in modern music.

 

My question remains where is the Pop artist/musician out front playing a hardware synth even it's sitting atop a piano, electromechanical KB, ROMpler or DP.

 

I haven't seen anyone up front rocking a Moog One, Prophet 5/10, OB-X8, Novation Summit, ASM Hydrasynth, Prophet X/XL, Moog Matriarch, Waldorf Quantum, Groove Synthesis 3rd Wave, Arturia PolyBrute, etc.😎

[CyberGene]

1 minute ago, ProfD said:

My question remains where is the Pop artist/musician out front playing a hardware synth even it's sitting atop a piano, electromechanical KB, ROMpler or DP

That’s music for grandpas. Just (slightly) kidding. 

[CrossRhodes]

On 8/2/2024 at 3:20 PM, CyberGene said:

Actually, yes, manufacturers are producing these things for nostalgia. That’s a lucrative market. Music as an art is dying, people are not that interested in music anymore, at least the way we know it. It’s more about entertainment and much less about musicianship and skilled musicians. You won’t see a guitarist or synthesist as the main act. Which is why synth reissues are not made for musicians, they are sold for nostalgia and for nerdy gratification. 

This entire forum is dedicated to nerdy gratification. Admitting we all have a problem is the first step to recovery. 😛
 

[Bill H.]

42 minutes ago, ProfD said:

Right. We've already established there's plenty sound of synth in modern music.

 

My question remains where is the Pop artist/musician out front playing a hardware synth even it's sitting atop a piano, electromechanical KB, ROMpler or DP.

 

Do Nords count? 😃 (while searching for that Sabrina Carpenter link, I found her in live performance where a keyboardist used a Nord.) 

[CyberGene]

Here’s a thought for you. Imagine Rhodes piano never existed until now. Suddenly a guy comes up with it. Will it make an impact. Will we start hearing it everywhere? How about Hammond, Minimoog, etc?

 

Sounds are about a context. Right time, right people, right cultural context. It’s not about the actual sound at all. IMO. 

[CrossRhodes]

1 hour ago, ProfD said:

Right. We've already established there's plenty sound of synth in modern music.

 

My question remains where is the Pop artist/musician out front playing a hardware synth even it's sitting atop a piano, electromechanical KB, ROMpler or DP.

 

I haven't seen anyone up front rocking a Moog One, Prophet 5/10, OB-X8, Novation Summit, ASM Hydrasynth, Prophet X/XL, Moog Matriarch, Waldorf Quantum, Groove Synthesis 3rd Wave, Arturia PolyBrute, etc.😎

Ah got it. I thought you meant where are the sounds of these synths in pop music but you literally meant where are these physical keyboards being played on stage by a pop star while fronting a band.

[NewImprov]

1 hour ago, Jim Alfredson said:

I see your point but certainly one could argue that Herbie was using synths as texture in jazz. And Zawinul was all about trying to emulate an organic, almost acoustic nature to synthesized sounds. He was a craftsman.

But regardless, that's kind of my point: There is a lot of fertile ground to explore there in jazz.

I saw Herbie in the 2000’s on tour for his album Future2Future, and, while the album isn’t great, the tour was fantastic. Lots of synths, mostly played by the 2nd keyboardist, plus turntables, and an amazing rhythm section, Matt Garrison and Cindy Blackman. And Wallace Roney on trumpet, who took an astoundingly beautiful solo on, of all tunes, Rockit. It really felt like he was taking the music of his past consciously into the future. Have seen Herbie a number of times since, and while he’s always great, I’ve never felt the visionary quality of that show again. That concert was the inspiration for the band I was in for the next 10 years, fusing funk and fusion with dance grooves and jazz solos.

 

And, Zawinul, man, very few players have come close to the organic, wholly original stuff he was up to. I listen to Mysterious Traveler and Mr. Gone often, and still marvel at the creativity. Scott Kinsey does a wonderful job of keeping his legacy alive and extending it. 

[AROIOS]

4 hours ago, Tusker said:

...Adolphe Sax created the saxophone which had much of the power of brass and all of the flexibility of woodwinds, along with its own unique charms...synthesizers too will have a renaissance in live performed music and not as mere backdrop...Perhaps it's going to be in a Jazz or Jazz adjacent genre...

That had already happened, in a genre as far removed from Jazz as possible.

Half of the magic of a saxophone, or any popular solo instruments (violin, electric guitar etc) comes from the range of articulation/expression it enables.

In the world of synths, that means controllers, controllers, and more controllers.

 

Most synth players are unimaginative and conformative. They are content with the small amount of controllers synth manufacturers bestow upon them, and never explore the myriad of ways a few dirt cheap encoder/MCUs can enhance their expressiveness.
 

 

 

[AROIOS]

6 hours ago, CyberGene said:

Imagine Rhodes piano never existed until now. Suddenly a guy comes up with it. Will it make an impact. Will we start hearing it everywhere? How about Hammond, Minimoog, etc?

Excellent point. FM EPs would likely reign over Rhodes (as it did in the 80's) if we reversed the order of their appearance; and to a lesser degree, polysynths over Hammonds.

[CrossRhodes]

4 hours ago, Jim Alfredson said:

I see your point but certainly one could argue that Herbie was using synths as texture in jazz. And Zawinul was all about trying to emulate an organic, almost acoustic nature to synthesized sounds. He was a craftsman.

But regardless, that's kind of my point: There is a lot of fertile ground to explore there in jazz.

Patrick Gleeson and Herbie were definitely breaking new ground.

https://www.soundonsound.com/people/patrick-gleeson

[Tusker]

2 hours ago, AROIOS said:

That had already happened, in a genre as far removed from Jazz as possible.

 

Thanks!! It's not my kinda of music, but he's opening a door that musicians can walk through. Brilliant. So, with the new sensors, the arduinos, the 3d printing, DIY AI code and the small CNC shops, synthesists are able to personalize their instrument interfaces? Sounds like the dawn of a new musical age. 👍

 

 

<soapbox on> In addition to moving upstream to better interfaces, we could also move downstream to dynamic speaker systems. There is no reason why Donald Leslie's brilliant 1937 speaker should still be the only widely used dynamic speaker system today.

 

Map your tweeters to LFO's and ADSRs with cheap servos. Use swell boxes for brightness and volume like the pipe organs. Take a page from the vox humana tremulant and add resonating surfaces for real time timbral control. There is no reason why "perfect reproduction" (taken from a 1960s hi fi obsession) should trump musical expression when it comes to our speaker systems. Our guitar brethren have already learned this lesson. When was the last time we heard a clean Marshall JCM?

 

The audience is listening for a dynamic experience. We should find ways to give it to them. <soapbox off>

[ProfD]

6 hours ago, CyberGene said:

Here’s a thought for you. Imagine Rhodes piano never existed until now.

The Rhodes is an electromechanical piano.

 

Harold Rhodes just made a portable version of Bartolomeo Cristofori's 18th century invention. 

 

Musicians creatively took advantage of the tonal characteristics of the Rhodes and used other electronic devices to come up with very cool music.

 

Early on, creative musicias were using synthesizers to produce and perform cool music too. The jury is still out on new hardware synths.😎

[AROIOS]

2 hours ago, Tusker said:

Thanks!! It's not my kinda of music, but he's opening a door that musicians can walk through. Brilliant. So, with the new sensors, the arduinos, the 3d printing, DIY AI code and the small CNC shops, synthesists are able to personalize their instrument interfaces? Sounds like the dawn of a new musical age. 👍

...Map your tweeters to LFO's and ADSRs with cheap servos. Use swell boxes for brightness and volume like the pipe organs. Take a page from the vox humana tremulant and add resonating surfaces for real time timbral control...

You'll never find Industrial Metal on my playlist either, but boy was he creative with those impressive machine-human interfaces.

And I totally agree with you on the hidden opportunities in every step/corner of sound generation, from oscillators/pickups to speakers. Musicians often get too caught up in worshiping "classic/vintage" gear and overlook the vast amount of sonic possibilities we have if they were $100 radioshack toys we can tinker with.

[CrossRhodes]

2 hours ago, ProfD said:

Early on, creative musicias were using synthesizers to produce and perform cool music too. The jury is still out on new hardware synths.😎

 

You just reminded me of when the Moog Voyager came out and all the old school synth heads were complaining about how it didn’t sound like the Model D and didn’t have the Moog sound. 20 + years later it’s become a staple in a lot of pop and hip hop studios and is now part of what the younger generations consider the Moog sound to encompass.

[AUSSIEKEYS]

On 8/3/2024 at 7:24 AM, ElmerJFudd said:

 

There was recently wild and heated debate regarding Taylor Swift being polled as a great guitar player.

 

Farout I never knew she was a  guitar player even though I cant but help see her name everywhere. Proves no mater how much a marketing team saturates the media it still doesnt sink in to every consumer.

 

I feel awful this is what i got out of this long thread.

[J.F.N.]

9 hours ago, CrossRhodes said:

 

You just reminded me of when the Moog Voyager came out and all the old school synth heads were complaining about how it didn’t sound like the Model D and didn’t have the Moog sound. 20 + years later it’s become a staple in a lot of pop and hip hop studios and is now part of what the younger generations consider the Moog sound to encompass.

 

The late manager of ABBA (and often, unknown to the most, lyricist on a lot of their songs), Stikkan Andersson, he said it already in the late 70's, "People are not dumb, they're dumber...".

 

[Tusker]

8 hours ago, AUSSIEKEYS said:

Proves no mater how much a marketing team saturates the media it still doesnt sink in to every consumer.

 

I feel awful this is what i got out of this long thread.

 

No worries mate.

 

It's never too late. 😅