Changing patches quickly

[Stokely]

Welp after 12 years in the same band I've had issues at two recent gigs finding a patch for a certain song and I had to tell everyone to go to the next song.  I hate this.

The main issue is that after most of that time playing a ton of songs where I could simply use standard piano/organ/rhodes with a few specifics thrown in, seems like every song we've added lately needs a custom patch and they are building up.    I actually like that as a patch programmer and player--makes it interesting!--but it makes it hard to navigate on the Nord Stage 3.   It's scroll-scroll-scroll hurriedly, often while holding the notes from the last song, and I have twice just scrolled on by the thing and now I'm flustered because everyone's waiting on me--or they start the next song and I am sitting there like a dolt.

We don't keep the set lists the same from gig to gig, if we did there'd be no issue.   If we did I'd arrange the patches to be in the same order.

I could probably get the set list in advance and re-order all the patches each week but my fear there is that I'll never really know where anything is...we occasionally take requests or pull something out based on the situation.  Plus what a PITA.

My buddy uses an ipad app, I'm hesitant to go there because I'd need to a) find my ipad   b) make sure it's charging c) find a place to mount the thing on my rig.  He uses Onsong, I'd probably try set list pro (iirc that is the name), in fact I think I've used the free version of it for some lyrics when I used to have my ipad with me.

My 2nd keyboard is a Fantom, which has better (on paper) patch navigation with a graphical view and scene chains and markers etc....but I do some gigs with only one.  Like last night, which was outdoors with a threat of rain so I kept my rig very small.    I know that both the Fantom and the Stage can be set up to send band/patch changes to other gear.   Because the Stage is at every gig, it should be the one--but it's the one with the one-patch-visible-at-a-time little window that is part of the problem.

   This is more of an issue lately additionally because our bass player is on a talkback and kind of moving us more quickly to the next song.   I think this is great for the band, but it's hard on me     The singer--who makes the set lists-- is trying to help, she said she'll run the list by me to try to not have songs together where I'm playing at the end of one and start the very next one.   If you have one where I can simply not play at the end, or beginning, those are great to pair with songs where my parts are central.   

So just curious what everyone's doing, whether it's mental training, ipad app, foot pedal or what.   It's been a bit stressful for me.

[MathOfInsects]

NS3 will let you view/scroll patches alphabetically, if that would help...?

 

I believe you can also view your patches alphabetically in the Nord Sound Manager. It's not pretty, but in that case you could always print out the alphabetical list, or screenshot it. Then as a global setting you can choose "Page" for how the Nord's arrows navigate and also choose the option that lets you type the patch numbers directly using the Live numbers. I had mine set that way and it was a massive time-saver. 

Beyond that, the ForScore/GigPerformer/Mainstage option is the most direct. It does mean always having a tablet or laptop with you, though, unless you use your phone for it. 

[CEB]

Korg Setlist is the most direct requiring no secondary doo dads but it means running the show from a Kronos or Nautilus.  
 

If I play keys in a band that isn’t a blues band there is no jacking with the show bullshit.  Otherwise I don’t take the gig.  Setlist does not change after the downbeat.   

[RichieP_MechE]

You should look into Song Mode - that's what I use on my Stage 3 Compact. It is a separate list where you create "Songs" that can reference up to 5 patches. Once you've created them, get your set list in advance of the next gig and you can re-arrange them easily from the Nord Sound Manager.

[ElmerJFudd]

Sipario MIDI router. 
 

https://www.lab4music.it/sipario.php?lang=EN

 

If you are keeping hardware and want to do the work of linking all your patches.   
 

Keep your keyboard, use as controller, ditch the sounds for MainStage on a MacBook.  Or GP on a PC. 

[HammondDave]

Ditch the Red menace and buy a keyboard that will allow you to do a quick name search of all your songs… like a Yamaha Montage/MODX.  I have hundreds of custom song performances that I can quickly search and find by name. 
 

Otherwise you need a good set list manager program running on an iPad. But finding one of those is more difficult than you would imagine. 

[Stokely]

I have a Modx, the NS3 compact is the favorite of any keyboard I've owned.  I've never had a keyboard where I can whip up useful patches so quickly, and the limitations aren't such that they really affect me (other than things like this, I never said it was perfect!)  The Fantom has a similar grid with scene chains (in some ways better, in some ways maybe worse) but like I said I may not bring it to certain gigs.   Or maybe I'll change my mind and it goes to every gig instead!   I kinda doubt that, I like the NS3 organ quite a bit more than the Roland's though it can do the job I guess.

I didn't know about the alpha song list on the NS3....that might just do the trick.   I was going to likely have an alpha list on an ipad app if I used one....or I guess you mean just do it via the Nord Sound manager, same difference in the end.

I already use Song Mode for certain songs that have parts different enough that I use different patches...bought a little two-button passive footswitch for 19 bucks (from Hotone) that works like a champ to move up or down through a song.   

Trying to avoid re-doing things once or even twice a week but if I have to, I have to.

It occurs to me I could also use Live mode for certain "critical" songs--ones where I start alone qualify--I used to use that almost exclusively on my Electro since I had so few patches I used on it.

 

[AnotherScott]

Kind of consolidating a number of comments above...

 

Korg Kronos/Nautilus, Roland Fantom/Fantom-0, Yamaha MODX/Montage, all have mechanisms for quick patch location/navigation. Otherwise, integrating an iPad or smartphone is probably the best way to go, for set list preparation and for locating patches for songs on the fly. It could be a set list program that supports MIDI program changes (like Set List Maker, OnSong, ForScore), or it could be a MIDI management program that has a set list function(I think at least Camelot Pro does this... and that might be the preferred approach if you also may want to add sounds from iPad apps).

 

The NS3 Compact has an optional music stand (if you have the Rev B), which gives you a convenient place to put the iPad, if you don't want to deal with mounting something to your keyboard stand or mic stand.

 

17 minutes ago, HammondDave said:

Otherwise you need a good set list manager program running on an iPad. But finding one of those is more difficult than you would imagine. 

 

What have you tried and found disappointing?

[Stokely]

Unfortunately I don't have the rev b, otherwise I'd have gotten one of the attachments.  I can attach things to my stand (already do) but it'll cost me if I use K&M's own stuff to add to that, especially since Thomann will no longer ship K&M to the states....I could figure out something though I'm sure.

Thanks for the various suggestions.  I may go with the low-hanging fruit of putting the songs in alpha order...and see how that works.  The biggest problem I've had is that I know the general spot for patches, but not exactly...so if I scroll past it I may not realize it.  So now I'm whizzing back and forth and the faster you go the less likely you'll spot it.

[Reezekeys]

With the caveat that I've never needed to do this (i.e., instant switching among song presets in an order that changes a lot), here's an idea: I would use TouchOSC on my iPad and create a control surface of buttons labeled with the names of the songs, in alphabetical order. Depending on the size of the iPad screen and how small a font you can see clearly (and tap on accurately!), you could probably fit a fair number of songs on one screen. Have each on-screen button send a PC number and there you go, any song listed on the screen is a finger tap away. You don't have to pre-program a new set list before each set (as you might with the other iPad apps), and you're also ready in case the leader calls an audible. Yea I know, you'd need an iPad and you don't want to use one. However, according to what I'm reading, your keyboard isn't built for this kind of thing so you'll have to add something extra to your setup. Good luck!

[MathOfInsects]

1 hour ago, Stokely said:

I didn't know about the alpha song list on the NS3....that might just do the trick.   I was going to likely have an alpha list on an ipad app if I used one....or I guess you mean just do it via the Nord Sound manager, same difference in the end.

I already use Song Mode for certain songs that have parts different enough that I use different patches...bought a little two-button passive footswitch for 19 bucks (from Hotone) that works like a champ to move up or down through a song.   

 

Hit Shift and spin the main selection dial on the NS3. You'll see "ABC" as one of the options for how to list the patches. You select it just under the screen. That's a very fast way to call up sounds quickly, as long as you name them something you are able to find on the fly! Plus, if you leave it selected, your patches are automatically served to you in alphabetical order. 

 

You could also take some time and organize patches by page--so, say, A is EPs, B and C are 80's, D and E are modern pop, and so on. Then set your forward and backward arrows to advance by page. That way you're never more than a couple of arrow clicks away from at least the "family" of patches you need.

 

There is another option to turn the Live buttons into direct input by number, so if you are in Page D and want sound 31, you hit the 3rd and 1st Live buttons and that's 31. I find this way easier than spinning the dial and hoping to go one patch at a time, particularly since our hands end up in the way of the screen half the time. 

 

 You can set up some "Songs" in song mode to contain all the songs any band is likely to call. You don't even need them in order, you can do the same "Shift/spin" move you used to choose ABC and you can see the patches in each song.

I use the "Live" slots for 80% or more of all the playing I do. On the NS3, Live 1 was the Piano I've worked the hardest on making sound right, Live 2 was Wurly, 3 was FM piano for 80's tunes, 4 was a Clav I've got where I like it, and 5 was freelance. Each one of those patches had organ volume-faded on the Mod Wheel, so Wheel Down was the keys, Wheel up the organ. Organ is always in "Live" mode too so the drawbars are always where it looks like they are and it's the same organ from patch to patch. Then in Bank A were a few different synth leads I liked for solos. This way I was never more than one click from what I need.

 

NS4 has changed this completely, those faders change the entire relationship with the board. 

[Stokely]

Ok wow, that's a save-able post right there, thanks!   And again, thanks for all the replies.  I figured there were a number of ways to get better at this.   I've done my fair share of gigs, never with more than two keyboards/modules to be fair, but never did anything other than manually changing patches.

I obviously learned just enough to be dangerous on the NS3, I had no idea it could do most of that.   Until we hit "critical mass" on specific per-song patches, AND sped up a bit, I was a-ok with just caveman scrolling....    And I'm seeing that I'm under-utilizing both Song and Live modes....

 

[eric]

NS3 is a beast with Song mode. Spend the time offline setting up all your programs and then putting them into Songs. I am managing hundreds of programs across 4-5 bands with my NS3 and it simply works. I’ll find some time to send some screenshots of how I’m managing things. Once you have the vibe, it’s really intuitive and the Organize function is your friend in a big way after you’re set up. 

[ImproKeys]

If you are using sheets to play I want to suggest you take them over to an iPad, use forescore for displaying the sheets and sending a program change message to your stage. So when you dial up the sheet your Stage is ready to play. 

[J.F.N.]

6 hours ago, Reezekeys said:

With the caveat that I've never needed to do this (i.e., instant switching among song presets in an order that changes a lot), here's an idea: I would use TouchOSC on my iPad and create a control surface of buttons labeled with the names of the songs, in alphabetical order. Depending on the size of the iPad screen and how small a font you can see clearly (and tap on accurately!), you could probably fit a fair number of songs on one screen. Have each on-screen button send a PC number and there you go, any song listed on the screen is a finger tap away. You don't have to pre-program a new set list before each set (as you might with the other iPad apps), and you're also ready in case the leader calls an audible. Yea I know, you'd need an iPad and you don't want to use one. However, according to what I'm reading, your keyboard isn't built for this kind of thing so you'll have to add something extra to your setup. Good luck!

 

Or MidiPad for iPhone/iPad, very easy to set up.

 

https://midipadapp.com/

 

Personally I am having wet dreams about this one, however, since I am not doing any live to talk about (yet) it's way out of budget.

 

http://www.musictechnologiesgroup.com/midipatch.htm

 

 - Manual mode lets you send Program Change as well as optional Bank Select MSB and LSB.
 

- Preset mode sends program-change-per-MIDI-channel as well as Bank Select on all 16 channels simultaneously -- per preset.

Send 180 bytes of MIDI data of your choice ...controller data, system exclusive, RPN, NRPN or anything! ... per Preset. (v3.00+)

Holds 200 Presets. (v3.00+)
 

- Chain mode let you build a song list or Preset list for even faster performance live.

Holds 99 chains of up to 18 Presets each. (v3.00+)
 

- Speed Dial hot-key combinations all access to your 9 favourite Presets. (v3.00+)

 

 

 

 

[niacin]

2 hours ago, J.F.N. said:

 

Personally I am having wet dreams about this one, however, since I am not doing any live to talk about (yet) it's way out of budget.

 

http://www.musictechnologiesgroup.com/midipatch.htm

 

 - Manual mode lets you send Program Change as well as optional Bank Select MSB and LSB.
 

- Preset mode sends program-change-per-MIDI-channel as well as Bank Select on all 16 channels simultaneously -- per preset.

Send 180 bytes of MIDI data of your choice ...controller data, system exclusive, RPN, NRPN or anything! ... per Preset. (v3.00+)

Holds 200 Presets. (v3.00+)
 

- Chain mode let you build a song list or Preset list for even faster performance live.

Holds 99 chains of up to 18 Presets each. (v3.00+)
 

- Speed Dial hot-key combinations all access to your 9 favourite Presets. (v3.00+)

 

 

 

 

 

I had one of these, issued under the Genovation monika, sold to another forum member a while back.  It looks like something from the 1980s, but the kicker is you can punch in the next preset number while you’re playing one song, and then just hit enter when you need to change.  It worked perfectly.  Looks like there’s been a software update.  (I sold it cause my Hammond SK1 could do the job I required just fine).

 

The Ebay link on his page brings up a few other items but not the MIDI Patch Changer, so it may be unobtanium.

[cphollis]

A couple of thoughts?

 

First, make sure that other band members understand it might take you a hot minute to respond to an impulsive set list call.  Drummers, vocalists, bassists et. al. don't have to reprogram their instruments for each song    I have had to educate more than one band leader on this reality, e.g. this is how a modern keyboard works.

 

Conversely, if a BL wants to move quickly between songs, set up a "static run" of X songs in a row that doesn't change.  Or inform them it's gonna be bog standard "piano+organ" for whatever gets called.

 

On your NS3, song mode can be great, as I can have the same program appear in multiple locations.  When I was last playing with an impulsive bandleader, I'd print out and laminate all the programs and their addresses, sort of a table of contents where I could dial up stuff quickly should the need arise.

 

Now that I'm the BL, I put together setlists with "padding" songs.  The lead vocalist reads the crowd and can make live adjustments -- for example, we're gonna skip the next one, or play X immediately followed by Y.  Everyone knows that it takes a moment for me to dial up a suitable patch, and it sounds better if I do that.

[AUSSIEKEYS]

2 hours ago, niacin said:

 

I had one of these, issued under the Genovation monika, sold to another forum member a while back.

 

And thankyou very much

[HammondDave]

2 hours ago, cphollis said:

A couple of thoughts?

 

First, make sure that other band members understand it might take you a hot minute to respond to an impulsive set list call.  Drummers, vocalists, bassists et. al. don't have to reprogram their instruments for each song    I have had to educate more than one band leader on this reality, e.g. this is how a modern keyboard works.

 

Conversely, if a BL wants to move quickly between songs, set up a "static run" of X songs in a row that doesn't change.  Or inform them it's gonna be bog standard "piano+organ" for whatever gets called.

 

On your NS3, song mode can be great, as I can have the same program appear in multiple locations.  When I was last playing with an impulsive bandleader, I'd print out and laminate all the programs and their addresses, sort of a table of contents where I could dial up stuff quickly should the need arise.

 

Now that I'm the BL, I put together setlists with "padding" songs.  The lead vocalist reads the crowd and can make live adjustments -- for example, we're gonna skip the next one, or play X immediately followed by Y.  Everyone knows that it takes a moment for me to dial up a suitable patch, and it sounds better if I do that.

to me, this is the key!  We need to train band leaders to avoid this, or at least realize that it will take a few moments to call up the patch/performance/preset for that song.  They need to know that the keyboard player should be the first to know if an audible is being called, not the last.  On the MODX it is very easy to find performances that are not in the setlist. But it still takes some amount of time.  

[ABECK]

+1 for the iPad approach.  I've used Setlist Maker, Onsong and most recently Camelot Pro to do this with various boards.  Camelot is the deepest and integrates a LOT of functionality.  Onsong is great for chart management, but the MIDI implementation was a pain (and now they have a subscription model, which is a no-go for me.  Setlist Maker was the easiest to use.

 

This reminds me....before all this wonderful technology, when I played gigs with my Korg DSS-1.  The setlist would have to be created around my ability to load floppy disks.  We tried to group songs according to my samples.  Ugh...what a pain.  

[eric]

One thing I remembered from my many years using a Nord Stage 2 as my primary keyboard, a unique feature called "Pending Load" that was extremely useful - so useful that I didn't ever need to rearrange my programs. I would put the instrument into ABC Sort Mode, which meant that the spinny knob for selecting programs would show programs alphabetically. The Pending Load feature would keep the current program active while I spin the knob to find my next program, which would flash in the display until I select it with a button press. So if my band's set list started with American Girl, followed by Werewolves of London, I'd have the board set to let me scroll from the A program to the W program with the wheel, which I'd typically do right near the end of the song, to have the next program waiting there ready for me.

 

It took me a long time to get over losing this feature in my Nord Stage 3. However, the Song function is probably even more useful, with the ability to store up to five program pointers in each Song, and then use the Organize feature to drag and drop the Songs in order.

[Stokely]

Good points everyone.  Fortunately it's just me (as far as I know!) that's having any angst over this--the singer and the band are cool with me taking some time.  She marked all the songs I told her I might need a minute on, so everyone's set list has a little pink line on those tunes   Our bass player and drummer didn't notice it on one of them so it takes time.   She's been using those songs to mention the servers/bartenders, mention the band's info etc.

I'm the only one with a bunch of patches, the guitarist literally has like 4 on his modelers with some optional stomps, boosts and effects for them to further change.  I had fewer patches but now with songs like Down Under, Footloose, Africa and others, they all need their own patch.  I'm happy to be doing songs like that, I repeat     I don't want the band to sit there and twiddle while I navigate patches if I can help it though.

Even on the Modx I'd occasionally forget which page of the Live set a patch would be on.

I'll get there, just having things alpha might be a simple way to find stuff.   Maybe put the "generic" patches like Piano, organ etc with special names ("_" in front of the name or something) on the live buttons so they don't appear in the main pack, I'll mess around.   The suggestion for categories might work for me as well, I'd have to give thought on how to categorize to make my life easier.   It probably won't be by instrument type--a song like Brandy for example I've got rhodes, organ and horns so what would that be  

[Jim Alfredson]

iPad running forScore. You can send MIDI program change messages from forScore and all the songs are in a list on the side, easily accessible. 

[Stokely]

Cool, so for ipad apps there's some suggestions.   I hadn't heard of some of these.  I also don't care for a subscription to Onsong, mainly because I don't need all OS's functionality to make it worth it.  Program changes is about it.   I'm weaning myself off lyric sheets, mainly because if I have that crutch at all I inevitably mess up more than I do just forgetting lyrics.  Reading doesn't work for me.

I forgot to mention that we are also working toward "mini sets" of songs that don't change in order.   These tend to be dance tunes that seque together to keep people moving, but the happy result of that for me is that I can program the patches in that order if I want.  That would be a great use of Song mode if i don't use it for everything.

[Reezekeys]

2 minutes ago, Jim Alfredson said:

iPad running forScore. You can send MIDI program change messages from forScore and all the songs are in a list on the side, easily accessible. 

 

And set lists can be re-ordered very easily with tap & drag. This is much better than my idea I posted above.

[EscapeRocks]

12 hours ago, Reezekeys said:

With the caveat that I've never needed to do this (i.e., instant switching among song presets in an order that changes a lot), here's an idea: I would use TouchOSC on my iPad and create a control surface of buttons labeled with the names of the songs, in alphabetical order. Depending on the size of the iPad screen and how small a font you can see clearly (and tap on accurately!), you could probably fit a fair number of songs on one screen. Have each on-screen button send a PC number and there you go, any song listed on the screen is a finger tap away. You don't have to pre-program a new set list before each set (as you might with the other iPad apps), and you're also ready in case the leader calls an audible. Yea I know, you'd need an iPad and you don't want to use one. However, according to what I'm reading, your keyboard isn't built for this kind of thing so you'll have to add something extra to your setup. Good luck!

I use MIDI Designer Pro on my iPad.

 

Here's an older setup where I have a button for each song.

I could instantly bring up any called song when we called audibles

 

[Stokely]

Thanks, more options! 

I know this is a bit of a tired subject but great info so far.

[Delaware Dave]

1st world problem. I cant believe that anyone would suggest a new $1000+ keyboard as a solution to this problem ....

[Stokely]

LOL definitely a 1st world problem   But aren't most of the ones keyboardists deal with.

Now, if the guitarist can't be heard, now we are talking def con 1 emergency!

[AnotherScott]

11 hours ago, MathOfInsects said:

I use the "Live" slots for 80% or more of all the playing I do. On the NS3, Live 1 was the Piano I've worked the hardest on making sound right, Live 2 was Wurly, 3 was FM piano for 80's tunes, 4 was a Clav I've got where I like it, and 5 was freelance. Each one of those patches had organ volume-faded on the Mod Wheel, so Wheel Down was the keys, Wheel up the organ. Organ is always in "Live" mode too so the drawbars are always where it looks like they are and it's the same organ from patch to patch. 

I really like that "live mode organ always available from the wheel" idea! But why waste a precious spot on that lame FM piano sound? Personally, I'd find harpsichord much more useful. 😉(And the funny thing is, I'm serious!) Though I'm not sure I see any advantage to using the 5 "Live" spots for this approach, as opposed to just using the first bank of 5 Programs...?

 

7 hours ago, J.F.N. said:

Or MidiPad for iPhone/iPad, very easy to set up.

 

https://midipadapp.com/

 

I ended up preferring MIDI Macros, but it hasn't been updated in a while and I'm not sure how compatible it is these days... I seem to remember running into an issue with it at some point. But picking up from David's post, MIDI Designer is probably the king of this particular hill.

 

3 hours ago, cphollis said:

Now that I'm the BL, I put together setlists with "padding" songs.  The lead vocalist reads the crowd and can make live adjustments -- for example, we're gonna skip the next one, or play X immediately followed by Y.  Everyone knows that it takes a moment for me to dial up a suitable patch, and it sounds better if I do that.

 

Someone was telling me that some app--maybe Forscore?--has a feature where the BL can call up the next song on his iPad, and everyone else's will go to that song as well, which is a cool idea. But what I'd really want is to send a pop-up "alert" to everyone else's device, and not actually change the doc they're looking at. I'd want to give a heads-up for an upcoming change, but would not want to assume that some player doesn't still need to see the rest of the chart for the song we're currently playing. I wonder if there's any kind of reasonably workable solution for this? Is anyone doing anything like this, to communicate with other band members in real time while playing?

 

45 minutes ago, eric said:

One thing I remembered from my many years using a Nord Stage 2 as my primary keyboard, a unique feature called "Pending Load" that was extremely useful ... It took me a long time to get over losing this feature in my Nord Stage 3. However, the Song function is probably even more useful

 

An unfortunate choice to have to make, since there are still situations where Pending Load would be more useful than Song Mode. But this again is where an iPad (or smartphone) app can fill the gap, since you can get to the screen that will call up the sound you need, but delay the PC command until you tap.