Recording my Yamaha AvantGrand N3X with USB to iPhone 14 for video -- not working.

[Dave Ferris]

A few might've noticed my recent videos in the CP88 thread recording USB with the CP88 & P515. It was my first attempt at recording USB.

 

 First off, I'm without a doubt the least skilled person on this forum with regard to tech, USB and digital audio but I was able to make those two keyboards work first time with no problem. Easy peasy even for someone like me...lol..

 

My AvantGrand N3X is not as cooperative. I have a brand new Apple camera adapter, https://www.apple.com/shop/product/MK0W2AM/A/lightning-to-usb-3-camera-adapter

and a brand new USB A type 3.0  male to male 15' cable.

 

I plugged the USB male into the bottom USB port of the AG, then the other male into the camera adapter, then the adapter into the iPhone. I then opened the camera on the iPhone 14. In that sequence.

 

I can't get it working, just the iPhone mics are working.

Here's test #1 with the AG volume low so you can hear the mics picking up the key noise and my foot tapping.

 

 

Test #2 at a louder volume. Not terrible audio quality, the iPhone 14 mics are pretty darn good for what they are but not line instrument quality.

 

 

 

Here's photos of the Apple camera adapter and male to male USB A type3.0 cable.

 

I was of the understanding that no app was needed, just plug the USB A male cables into the N3X's USB port on the bottom, then into Apple camera adapter, exactly like I did on the P515 & CP88 and you're good to go.

 

Thanks in advance.

 

 

[Leroy C]

I'm not super familiar with iPhones.  What is the video app that it uses?  And does it have settings to select different inputs (USB vs. built-in mic)?  I know on my Android phone I have to specifically select my USB mic in the settings before I record.

[Brad Kaenel]

When you connected to the CP88 and P515, did you use the same USB-A to USB-A cable?  Or was it a USB-A to USB-B cable? There might be exceptions, but conventionally the "B" jack (square shape) on the keyboard is used for connectivity to a computer, and the "A" jack (flat shape) for backup/storage (like a thumb drive). Many keyboards provide both jacks for the two specific purposes, like the CP88.  If your AG has only an "A" jack, that might be provided only for storing settings, and not for audio.

 

[Dave Ferris]

Yes different cable  on the CP88 & P515, I used this. Yes, it appears the AG is not set up for this, I need an audio interface.

 

Thanks Brad and Leroy.

 

[ElmerJFudd]

Hi Dave.  
 

I do not believe the Yamaha Avant Grand is a class compliant midi and audio device.  So it does not stream audio and midi to an iPhone or iPad by just plugging it in.  The reason I think this is because Yamaha has a USB driver for macOS and Windows - so it is apparently not class compliant there either.  You have to install a driver.   
 

The easiest way to get direct audio from your N3X is to use its 1/4” stereo outs to an audio interface that is compatible with your iphone.  
 

A lot of people use the Avant Grand’s action as a controller to a Mac or PC sending just MIDI over USB and using something like Spectrasonics Keyscape or Garritan CFX to generate the audio file.  

[cphollis]

This isn't gonna work with the N3X.  The USB port expects to read and write file data from a flash drive, and doesn't send audio as you're expecting.

 

Instead, you'll need a small stereo USB recording interface.  Run a pair of XLR cables from the N3X to the recording interface, and then USB out to your iPhone or whatever.

 

I have the earlier N3.

 

Manual is here: https://usa.yamaha.com/files/download/other_assets/1/813121/n3x_en_om_a0.pdf

[Dave Ferris]

Thanks guys. Yes I've found out I need an interface. Something like this Zoom should work, hopefully.

https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/U44--zoom-u-44-handy-audio-interface

 

On a different tangent-- it should be possible to run the AG into the inputs on a Montage M6 or M7, then go USB out of the Montage to my iPhone. Am I correct there?

 

I was thinking of getting one for awhile now to play around with at home, not necessarily gig with. I would have the higher end A/D with the Montage which would make the AG (or CP88, P515) sound better as well. Am I correct there too?

[ElmerJFudd]

4 hours ago, Dave Ferris said:

Thanks guys. Yes I've found out I need an interface. Something like this Zoom should work, hopefully.

https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/U44--zoom-u-44-handy-audio-interface

 

On a different tangent-- it should be possible to run the AG into the inputs on a Montage M6 or M7, then go USB out of the Montage to my iPhone. Am I correct there?

 

I was thinking of getting one for awhile now to play around with at home, not necessarily gig with. I would have the higher end A/D with the Montage which would make the AG (or CP88, P515) sound better as well. Am I correct there too?

"Zoom U-44 Handy Audio Interface Features:

4-channel USB recording interface for Mac, Windows, and iPad (via Camera Connection Kit)"

 

This sounds good!

 

re: Montage M6, "Connect MONTAGE to your computer with a single USB cable and capture every nuance of your creativity into your DAW. MONTAGE's powerful USB driver can send 16 and receive 3 channels of STEREO 24 bit/44.1 kHz digital audio to/from your computer or iOS device (MONTAGE is class compliant, no driver needed!), no other hardware required!"

 

This also sounds good.   Montage M does have 2 A/D inputs on the rear and I assume they are intended to record with.   So you should be able to take Left and Right audio from the N3X and run it to the Montage M which is in turn connected via USB to your iOS device. 

 

The video recording app just needs to be able to select which inputs to record from in both cases, Zoom or Montage M.  Otherwise, you record video and audio at the same time and pair them up later in a video editing software.  

 

4 year old video, but give you the idea of how to do this.

 

 

[Reezekeys]

21 hours ago, ElmerJFudd said:

A lot of people use the Avant Grand’s action as a controller to a Mac or PC sending just MIDI over USB and using something like Spectrasonics Keyscape or Garritan CFX to generate the audio file.  

 

 

Using the AG as a controller for a different piano sound? What am I not getting? If you're gonna use a different piano sample, why would you spend 7-10K on an instrument that has a (supposedly) world-class piano sample set, multi-channel sound system, haptic feedback, etc.? If I owned this piano I would probably want to record the sound of this piano.

[CyberGene]

1 hour ago, Reezekeys said:

Using the AG as a controller for a different piano sound? What am I not getting? If you're gonna use a different piano sample, why would you spend 7-10K on an instrument that has a (supposedly) world-class piano sample set, multi-channel sound system, haptic feedback, etc.? If I owned this piano I would probably want to record the sound of this piano.

 

I own the N1X which is the little brother of N3X. They have the same keyboard action and samples but differ in amplification and speakers where the N3X is just amazing. I can't play on speakers due to my neighbors' complaints which is why I'm with headphones 99% of the time.

 

Although the onboard piano sound (especially the main CFX one) is really good and is what I use for practicing and my own pleasure, it's a no match for huge software sample-based libraries, especially when you need to create a lush piano recording with the most realistic and convincing piano sound. I use Garritan CFX to produce my YouTube recordings and it just sounds awesome to my ears, at least compared to the onboard piano sound. When I first got it, I did a bunch of videos with the onboard sound but then switched to Garritan CFX and never looked back. Here's a comparison.

 

The onboard CFX sound:

 

 

Garritan CFX:

 

Unfortunately I don't have the same piece recorded with both but you can still get some idea about the difference in sound.

 

P.S. I know a lot of comments would be about the lack of reverb in the first clip and lush "reverb" in the latter. Well, here's the thing. The onboard samples are very dry and there's onboard reverb (it's actually enabled and with the default level in the video) but it's really lame, it's algorithmic reverb. And Garritan CFX doesn't use "reverb". It has separately recorded close mics and distant mics that capture the real reverberation of Abbey Road studios where the piano has been sampled and it sounds nothing like an algorithmic reverb, it's just some magical awesomeness 🙂 You can't get that through any reverb FX added to the already recorded piano sound. Nothing compares to recording an actual piano in an actual concert hall with great ambiance. Hopefully digital piano manufacturers will start including multiple mic perspectives that you can mix to produce naturally sounding reverb.

[ElmerJFudd]

2 hours ago, Reezekeys said:

 

 

Using the AG as a controller for a different piano sound? What am I not getting? If you're gonna use a different piano sample, why would you spend 7-10K on an instrument that has a (supposedly) world-class piano sample set, multi-channel sound system, haptic feedback, etc.? If I owned this piano I would probably want to record the sound of this piano.

You can record the N3X audio and MIDI performances to USB thumb drive.  (Pg. 34 of the manual).

To pair it up with video one has to use video editing software to line up the N3X's waveform with the waveform from the video recording and delete the audio from the iPhone's mic.  

 

The thing about these avant grands is they are designed to replicate the look, feel and sound of a grand piano in the room.  The multi-mic sampling they did was specifically to have it play back from the amp and speaker system (80W x 2 + 45W x 4 + 35W x 5 + 25W x 4 into (16 cm + 13 cm + 2.5 cm) x 4. When recorded to thumb drive or from 1/4" outputs it just gets reduced to Left and Right - as it would if taking the outs and going to a PA system. 

 

Many software vst pianos give us a lot more control over the sound with mic positions, size of room, and many other parameters that are committed to when recording direct from the N3X.  

 

You can just use your iPhone's camera+mic to capture how the N3X sounds in the room - as you would an acoustic piano.  The results vary greatly depending on problems with the room, placement and quality of your mic(s).  

 

[Reezekeys]

44 minutes ago, ElmerJFudd said:

The thing about these avant grands is they are designed to replicate the look, feel and sound of a grand piano in the room.  The multi-mic sampling they did was specifically to have it play back from the amp and speaker system

 

It's interesting to hear this, makes sense. It's just the irony of spending some pretty big bucks on a instrument like this and having to connect to a different piano sample to get a satisfying recording. I get it though.

[Dave Ferris]

Thanks Evgeni who helped me out via PM and told me I needed an interface. Beautiful playing and your recordings sound great!

 

Rob is right in I'd rather just record the sound of the N3X as it is. It actually sounds pretty amazing in our living room with the higher ceilings, raised foundation wood floor and angled plaster walls.

 

And while the internal sound isn't as good as the software pianos, it's fine as it is for me. Basically I have so little tech skill, doing it the easiest way just for these casual videos is probably the best route for me.

 

On yet another tangent, I was thinking of trying out this Zoom Q8n-4K camera.

https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/Q8n-4K--zoom-q8n-4k-ultra-high-definition-handy-video-recorder

 

There would be a learning curve with that of course but I've found the customer service at Zoom (actually being able to talk to people on the phone) to be exemplary.

 

And to add one more tangent- I've just recently gone through the time and creative flow sucking nightmare of trying three different stand alone interfaces to record my Steinway with my DPA 4011s. In the end they are not IOS compliant with an iPhone and are meant to be used with a computer or tablet.

 

So I'm looking at the Zoom because of the xlr inputs being able to go direct and have improved A/D over the iPhone. The guy at Zoom was pretty straight up with me saying, to be honest the video quality probably won't be as good as the iPhone 14 but the audio quality (which is WAY more important to me at least) would be a huge step up.

 

With the Zoom I could have the option of using my mics on the N3X or going direct line in. And hopefully get a better recorded sound on my Steinway. So also considering that option.

 

Thanks for the help everyone.

[Reezekeys]

2 hours ago, CyberGene said:

Although the onboard piano sound (especially the main CFX one) is really good and is what I use for practicing and my own pleasure, it's a no match for huge software sample-based libraries, especially when you need to create a lush piano recording with the most realistic and convincing piano sound.

 

I like both recordings (the playing as well as the sound, very nice!) but I get your point. You'll have more control with software.The big libraries with multiple mic positions will give you more to work with in terms of getting the recorded sound you want. I'll amend my inital opining to say that if your primary aim is making recordings using software pianos, it might not make much sense to spend that much for an AG - however, for the pleasure of hearing something "analog" (ish!) in a room, I'm sure it does the job exceptionally well!