Yamaha Triple Pedals

[DeltaJockey]

Does anyone know the wiring schematic for a Yamaha FC35?

 

I don't know why Yamaha have never made a triple pedal that would suit the Montage. The Montage M8x advertises that the GEX gives great expression for piano, (which is true), but unlike the other manufacturers, triples are in short supply for Yamahas in general. I know the Montage supports continuous from 10K to 50K. If the FC35 had something within that range, I'd just buy one, cut the single plug off and put separate plugs on. Apart from that, I've gotten used to having a triple with my other gear, which is heavy enough to sit in one place without moving, and also use it to configure the Soft/ Sostenuto for other functions when not using it for piano. Putting 3 single pedals on a common wooden board, to me is just not elegant.😬

[DeltaJockey]

I wish I could rename this title. It's the most generic and boring title I've ever thought up.👇

 

If someone has any ideas where I could go to find some Yamaha experts, other than YamahaMusicians/Forums etc, I'd be forever grateful.

Failing that, I need to find a triple pedal that is compatible with Montage.

 

 

Oh wait, maybe I should just contact Yamaha support?

 

[ElmerJFudd]

15 hours ago, DeltaJockey said:

I wish I could rename this title. It's the most generic and boring title I've ever thought up.👇

 

If someone has any ideas where I could go to find some Yamaha experts, other than YamahaMusicians/Forums etc, I'd be forever grateful.

Failing that, I need to find a triple pedal that is compatible with Montage.

 

 

Oh wait, maybe I should just contact Yamaha support?

 

The Yamaha FC35 is compatible with P-121/P-125/P-125a/P-225/P-515/P-525/P-S500/DGX-670 and supports half damper on the right damper pedal.  
 

The cable connector on the FC-35 is unique to those models.  As shown here.  
 

 

It is highly likely that the three pedals in this unit are the same in design internally as Yamaha’s FC3/FC4 (continuous half damper support) and FC5 (momentary) pedals.  So one might consider replacing the cable with 3 of your own, copying the wiring and plugging the right into sustain, the middle and left into assignable pedal inputs on the Montage.  
 

Most people that want 2 or 3 Yamaha compatible pedals purchase them individually, attach all to a small board side by side and use the cables they came with. However a few especially picky people build a little house over the pedals to look like a complete unit and paint it black.  
 

Why don’t all the digital piano/keyboard makers offer a triple pedal that is compatible with all their keyboards?  I think they don’t sell a lot of them (most piano hobbyists just use the sustain pedal even if they have 3 pedals).  They don’t of course want to offer all features on all models - it messes with their pricing schemes.  

[DeltaJockey]

6 hours ago, ElmerJFudd said:

So one might consider replacing the cable with 3 of your own, copying the wiring and plugging the right into sustain, the middle and left into assignable pedal inputs on the Montage.  

So that being my thinking is the only easy answer. Which is why all I am looking for is the schematic. I could take a chance and blindly buy one, it just gets a bit more messy if I have to replace the pot too, if it's value falls outside the range compatible with the Montage continuous range. I was hoping to ask any long time Yamaha folk if in their opinion Yamaha are likely to standardize their internal specs so they don't have too many different parts in their production, and that the continuous sensing range for the Px pianos is the same as the Montage.

 

I know there is that MIDI universal pedal adapter thingy box, can't remember the name, but it seems to be a hard product to source, particularly  where I live.

That's why buying a triple from Yamaha and changing the plug seemed such a 10 minute easy fix.

 

I've had a bit of a run with triples lately. I also have the Roland RPU-3 for my RD88, and a Studiologic SL3P-3 for the Numa X piano.

The SL quality leaves a bit to be desired, and have already had that apart cleaning and relubing the plastic gears, (annoyingly it's still under warranty but too much hassle to get it back for service), so thought I'd try the Roland on the Numa.

Most other keyboard makers have enough settings to accommodate other brands of pedals, and the Roland works great on the Numa.

But sadly, none of them work on the Yamaha, who have the least options for setting pedal specs on the Montage.

 

Sensing my frustration in my rant? Is it too much to ask to have a triple pedal on a Montage? As I said in my first post, I don't want to put 3 on a board. There are other issues doing it that way I'm not wanting to deal with.

 

[ElmerJFudd]

1 hour ago, DeltaJockey said:

So that being my thinking is the only easy answer. Which is why all I am looking for is the schematic. I could take a chance and blindly buy one, it just gets a bit more messy if I have to replace the pot too, if it's value falls outside the range compatible with the Montage continuous range. I was hoping to ask any long time Yamaha folk if in their opinion Yamaha are likely to standardize their internal specs so they don't have too many different parts in their production, and that the continuous sensing range for the Px pianos is the same as the Montage.

 

I know there is that MIDI universal pedal adapter thingy box, can't remember the name, but it seems to be a hard product to source, particularly  where I live.

That's why buying a triple from Yamaha and changing the plug seemed such a 10 minute easy fix.

 

I've had a bit of a run with triples lately. I also have the Roland RPU-3 for my RD88, and a Studiologic SL3P-3 for the Numa X piano.

The SL quality leaves a bit to be desired, and have already had that apart cleaning and relubing the plastic gears, (annoyingly it's still under warranty but too much hassle to get it back for service), so thought I'd try the Roland on the Numa.

Most other keyboard makers have enough settings to accommodate other brands of pedals, and the Roland works great on the Numa.

But sadly, none of them work on the Yamaha, who have the least options for setting pedal specs on the Montage.

 

Sensing my frustration in my rant? Is it too much to ask to have a triple pedal on a Montage? As I said in my first post, I don't want to put 3 on a board. There are other issues doing it that way I'm not wanting to deal with.

 

Just out of curiosity do you want it to function in a piano manner?  Like… una corda, sostenuto and damper?  Does the Montage have any piano patches onboard that offer that functionality?   Or do you want to use the pedal to control software pianos running on your computer?  If it’s the latter, consider an audiofront autosensing pedal to USB converter.  https://www.audiofront.net/MIDIExpression.php
 

I would ask Yamaha technical support if they can assist you with the wiring schematic - they may or may not want to.  Alternatively you can contact or visit an authorized Yamaha repair center and see if they are willing to send you a jpg of the page you need from the service manual - I’d be happy to get the FC35 or any of the FC models.  

[DeltaJockey]

48 minutes ago, ElmerJFudd said:

If it’s the latter, consider an audiofront autosensing pedal to USB converter.  https://www.audiofront.net/MIDIExpression.php
 

That's the thingy box I mentioned above. Couldn't remember the name of it! I looked at getting one a while back. The shipping details looked a bit complicated at the time, and I also didn't then because I was looking at using a Kawai GPF3 for the Montage, as it's the best pedal of them all with it's optical proximity sensing, but this adapter doesn't support that, and I would have had to design and build another interface between the pedal and adapter! I've since sold the Kawai and pedal, but I find the Roland triple to be the next best thing. It's very smooth. Not sure, but I suspect it uses nylon string pulleys rather than gritty plastic gears like the SL.

 

Perhaps I'll revisit the adapter again as the Roland should be compatible.

 

Yes I want the triple for both reasons,

 

Una/Sost/Damper for vst pianos and pianoteq,

and

Continuous damper for the onboard pianos as well as function switching for left and center pedals for other functions. eg Arp/motion switch etc.

 

 

There are pros and cons using the Roland with the adapter though.

The pro is that all 3 pedals are continuous pots, which I discovered was great when playing the Montage ESP software on the RD88, as I assigned the superknob to the left continuous pedal.

 

whereas the cons are that it may be a problem when using them for switching, program change etc. unless the Montage can detect analog threshold change to 2 state detection.

 

It's why I simply wanted to just order something  pretty much off the shelf and change plugs. I think the FC35 is 2 switches and a continuous damper. Would plug straight into the Montage controllers.

 

It seems that avoiding a tedious solution is in itself becoming complicated😬

 

 

[ElmerJFudd]

21 minutes ago, DeltaJockey said:

That's the thingy box I mentioned above. Couldn't remember the name of it! I looked at getting one a while back. The shipping details looked a bit complicated at the time, and I also didn't then because I was looking at using a Kawai GPF3 for the Montage, as it's the best pedal of them all with it's optical proximity sensing, but this adapter doesn't support that, and I would have had to design and build another interface between the pedal and adapter! I've since sold the Kawai and pedal, but I find the Roland triple to be the next best thing. It's very smooth. Not sure, but I suspect it uses nylon string pulleys rather than gritty plastic gears like the SL.

 

Perhaps I'll revisit the adapter again as the Roland should be compatible.

 

Yes I want the triple for both reasons,

 

Una/Sost/Damper for vst pianos and pianoteq,

and

Continuous damper for the onboard pianos as well as function switching for left and center pedals for other functions. eg Arp/motion switch etc.

 

 

There are pros and cons using the Roland with the adapter though.

The pro is that all 3 pedals are continuous pots, which I discovered was great when playing the Montage ESP software on the RD88, as I assigned the superknob to the left continuous pedal.

 

whereas the cons are that it may be a problem when using them for switching, program change etc. unless the Montage can detect analog threshold change to 2 state detection.

 

It's why I simply wanted to just order something  pretty much off the shelf and change plugs. I think the FC35 is 2 switches and a continuous damper. Would plug straight into the Montage controllers.

 

It seems that avoiding a tedious solution is in itself becoming complicated😬

 

 

I also think the FC35 is an FC3 and two FC5 design and behavior wise.  It will take a bit of fiddling to figure out the TS and TRS cabling.  It is more likely to work with the Montage once solved than the Roland since they do wire their pedals differently.   
 

The audiofront product is really only helpful with software pianos - you’d have to calibrate a continued pedal I presume to get half damper behavior in Pianoteq, etc.  

 

Given how popular and successful software pianos have been - with enthusiasts collecting them - I am simply astounded that several lovely brass black lacquer Bluetooth/USB triple pedals are not on the market. 🤷‍♂️  I’d buy one.  I had the CME but the electronics eventually failed.   

[DeltaJockey]

43 minutes ago, ElmerJFudd said:

I also think the FC35 is an FC3 and two FC5 design and behavior wise.

I suspect you are correct there. That's why I'm hoping that there is a commonality in circuit specs across the Yamaha pedals. If there is, then it'll be a piece of cake to wire it for the Montage.

 

43 minutes ago, ElmerJFudd said:

Given how popular and successful software pianos have been - with enthusiasts collecting them - I am simply astounded that several lovely brass black lacquer Bluetooth/USB triple pedals are not on the market.

That's what has astounded me also. I'd be an early adopter for sure.👍 Though judging by the general interest in the topic in this thread, I have to wonder how many folk really are interested. Perhaps there's only a small percentage of digital piano purists on this forum?

 

While I was in the mood, I made a call to my local Yamaha tech support. The person I spoke to put me on to a tech, but I had to leave a voicemail, so will see where that leads me. I would think it is a valid tech support topic, given that my Montage is only 6 months old and under warranty. I do have the controller tech specs for the Montage, (original), so I'm halfway there. I know what the Montage is expecting, and what pin, I just don't know what's inside the FC35.

[AUSSIEKEYS]

On 4/14/2024 at 10:09 AM, DeltaJockey said:

I wish I could rename this title. It's the most generic and boring title I've ever thought up.👇

 

If someone has any ideas

 

 

Cant resist this offer to make the title more interesting.

 

...Ohhh thats an easy one by just switching around the words 

 

Yamaha Triple Pedals

 

becomes

 

Yamaha Pedals Tribbles

 

Helps if you're a Trekkie. The trouble with Tribbles is they dont sell well so it would take a lot of pedalling on Yamaha's part

[ElmerJFudd]

12 hours ago, DeltaJockey said:

I suspect you are correct there. That's why I'm hoping that there is a commonality in circuit specs across the Yamaha pedals. If there is, then it'll be a piece of cake to wire it for the Montage.

 

That's what has astounded me also. I'd be an early adopter for sure.👍 Though judging by the general interest in the topic in this thread, I have to wonder how many folk really are interested. Perhaps there's only a small percentage of digital piano purists on this forum?

 

While I was in the mood, I made a call to my local Yamaha tech support. The person I spoke to put me on to a tech, but I had to leave a voicemail, so will see where that leads me. I would think it is a valid tech support topic, given that my Montage is only 6 months old and under warranty. I do have the controller tech specs for the Montage, (original), so I'm halfway there. I know what the Montage is expecting, and what pin, I just don't know what's inside the FC35.

Please report back on this schematic and again on your success or troubles as I’m keen to take this project on as well! 

[DeltaJockey]

Well, the tech returned my call and we had a good long conversation about the Montage. The FC35 pedal has 3 continuous controllers with 10k pots, which is all I need to know. The pot resistance is at the bottom of the compatibility range for the Montage but should be fine. We also discussed other technical details about the workings of the Montage, so I have enough information to do what I need to do.

Interestingly, armed with this info, I had another play around with my other pedals connected to the Montage, and managed to get the Roland RPU-3 damper pedal to work in continuous/half damper mode using one of the assignable controllers, as I don't own any Yamaha pedals at this stage.

If I plug the other 2 pedals in to the other controller slots at the same time, unfortunately because of how the Roland pedal unit is wired the Montage plug sensing circuit thinks nothing is plugged in at all. So for now at least,  I have a damper pedal only, which doesn't slide around the floor👍 I will however purchase an FC35, change the plugs and should be good to go.

[ElmerJFudd]

4 minutes ago, DeltaJockey said:

Well, the tech returned my call and we had a good long conversation about the Montage. The FC35 pedal has 3 continuous controllers with 10k pots, which is all I need to know. The pot resistance is at the bottom of the compatibility range for the Montage but should be fine. We also discussed other technical details about the workings of the Montage, so I have enough information to do what I need to do.

Interestingly, armed with this info, I had another play around with my other pedals connected to the Montage, and managed to get the Roland RPU-3 damper pedal to work in continuous/half damper mode using one of the assignable controllers, as I don't own any Yamaha pedals at this stage.

If I plug the other 2 pedals in to the other controller slots at the same time, unfortunately because of how the Roland pedal unit is wired the Montage plug sensing circuit thinks nothing is plugged in at all. So for now at least,  I have a damper pedal only, which doesn't slide around the floor👍 I will however purchase an FC35, change the plugs and should be good to go.

Is it reasonably possible to upgrade the pots on it the FC35 to better match their spec? 

[DeltaJockey]

5 minutes ago, ElmerJFudd said:

Is it reasonably possible to upgrade the pots on it the FC35 to better match their spec? 

It won't be necessary. The Montage AD converter on the damper will allow the full range using the 10K, as the input is capable of anything from 10 to 50K.

 

Interestingly the Roland pedal, has pots of about 5k, and I managed to get continuous damper values from 0 to 110, which was enough to enable the half and full damper functionality on any sound.