Have FireWire Hardware? Apple Says "Too Bad, Go Buy New Stuff"

[Anderton]

C'mon, Apple. Apparently starting with Ventura, they've removed the code that lets FireWire hardware talk to Core Audio. In other words, FireWire support has been surgically removed from the operating system itself. Now, maybe the guy who did the video doesn't know what he's talking about it, but others are corroborating it.

 

I don't code, but I fail to see why that is necessary. I'm sure Apple will have some excuse about it causes instability blah blah blah it's really ancient blah blah blah no one uses FireWire anymore blah blah blah but I suspect it's more along the lines of "Studio owners with FireWire gear? Oh, they still exist? Who cares?"

 

It reminds me of the time when my Universal Audio Powered Plugins card wouldn't work in Apple computers anymore. I talked to UA about their lack of support, but they said that Apple changed the PCIe spec in their computers, and that the card was hardware so it was keyed to the way the spec worked. The only fix wouldn't be a firmware change, but chip surgery, which they weren't prepared to do.

 

So, I got a UA Satellite. Now that won't work with Apple computers running Ventura or higher. At least it still works with my Windows computer, and will for the foreseeable future.

 

The irony, of course, is that Apple co-invented FireWire.

 

 

[The Real MC]

Precisely why I am 100% OTB.  This has been happening for years not just with MacOS.

And people wonder if large format boards have any future value.

[Anderton]

34 minutes ago, The Real MC said:

And people wonder if large format boards have any future value.

 

They do, as long as they don't have a FireWire interface 🤣 I think it's conceivable that at some point, the DAW companies that were acquired by venture capitalists who deal with medical electronics, media conglomerates, and waste disposals companies will figure that these recording people just aren't worth the effort.

 

Unfortunately being OTB has become a luxury not just in terms of cost but in terms of space, so that's not an option for many people.

[analogika]

They removed Firewire from the first Macs in 2008 — FIFTEEN years ago.

The last MacBook to come with a Firewire port was the 2012 MacBook Pro — which they sold until late 2016 (but only because it was the very last option with an optical drive).

The last Mac Pro and iMacs with a Firewire port were discontinued in 2013, the last Mac mini in 2014. 

 

We all knew this was coming at least a decade ago — all things considered, Apple have been considerably more gracious than other companies. Among those UAD and others, who discontinued support for their Firewire interfaces in Big Sur, years ago. And managed to make it look like Apple had removed support for Firewire (which they didn't until two years later). 

 

Obsolete hardware requires obsolete hardware. Such is the way of the digital world, and has been for four decades. 🤷‍♂️

 

(Side note: Metric Halo offers the 3d upgrade for ALL existing interfaces, which also replaces the Firewire port with USB-C and Ethernet. My more than twenty-year-old audio interface is running just fine on the M2 MacBook Pro!)

 

BTW, you CAN make Firewire Audio work in Ventura. Scroll down on this link: 

https://developer.apple.com/forums/thread/721151

[Anderton]

4 hours ago, analogika said:

The last Mac Pro and iMacs with a Firewire port were discontinued in 2013, the last Mac mini in 2014.

That's no excuse. Apple itself knows you don't need a FireWire port to use FireWire devices with Apple computers. When introducing Thunderbolt, Apple made a big deal of its backward compatibility with FireWire, USB, DisplayPort, and other protocols via adapters. Their Thunderbolt-to-FireWire adapter even delivered up to 7 watts for FireWire 800 bus-powered devices. Many musicians use state-of-the-art Macs with FireWire devices connected via Thunderbolt.

 

FireWire hardware is not obsolete, because it works with current Macs via Thunderbolt (or at least it used to), as well as with current Thunderbolt-equipped Windows machines. I use one or two FireWire devices almost every day. Given that FireWire hardware is not obsolete, apparently Apple just DECIDED arbitrarily that FireWire hardware was obsolete, but only for anyone wanting to update macOS. Unless there's a convincing technical reason why retaining FireWire compatibility isn't possible - and I haven't seen any - this is a blunder on Apple's part that makes a joke of their "commitment" to being a green company.  What's worse, those who thought removing it in Ventura was simply an oversight that would be rectified with Sonoma were wrong.

 

4 hours ago, analogika said:

BTW, you CAN make Firewire Audio work in Ventura. Scroll down on this link: 

 

As far as I can tell, it's a hack that disables security, and at least according to the thread, doesn't work for everybody. Besides, hacking a computer's operating system is not an ideal "solution" for studio owners. 

 

If anyone who doesn't like this decision wants to feel better by giving feedback, here's contact information for getting ignored by Apple.

[Sundown]

It’s irritating … I’m a PC guy, but I still have an old M-Audio FireWire interface that I would use for mobile recording if I had a laptop that had a port. 

 

Clearly the near-term future is USB-C and Thunderbolt, but it sure has been a turbulent decade or two for connectivity.

 

Todd

[David Emm]

*SIGH* Oh Lordy, don't make me go back to a behemoth workstation instead of Logic. I've used up the fortitude that would require. 

[Anderton]

1 hour ago, Sundown said:

Clearly the near-term future is USB-C and Thunderbolt, but it sure has been a turbulent decade or two for connectivity.

 

Which is why it's great that standards are becoming more inclusive. Thunderbolt can connect to USB-C. USB-C can connect to its former variants. Thunderbolt was designed to be able to connect with older protocols. That's why I find it odd that Apple appears to be deliberately fencing off a still-viable CoreAudio driver option for no apparent reason that I can see.

 

So, I asked ChatGPT what the reason was for Apple discontinuing the FireWire Core Audio driver in macOS 13. After combing the web, ChatGPT said "The reason for this decision is not clear, but it may be due to the declining popularity of FireWire as a connection standard."

 

Yes, FireWire's popularity is declining. But I can argue that telling those people still using costly FireWire interfaces that they can't update macOS for their shiny new Mac Studio, without any reason other than "we don't feel like it," is giving the finger to the customers who helped Apple put FireWire on the map.

 

Hopefully someone who knows more about the situation than ChatGPT can provide us with a cogent reason why this makes sense.

[Greg Mein]

8 hours ago, analogika said:

They removed Firewire from the first Macs in 2008 — FIFTEEN years ago.

The last MacBook to come with a Firewire port was the 2012 MacBook Pro — which they sold until late 2016 (but only because it was the very last option with an optical drive).

 

The 2008 MBP was the worst dog in my history of using Macs. Mine was dead within a couple of years. something died on the MB and it was all over. Mine wasn't an isolated incident, apparently it was a known issue but of course it was out of warranty and I was out of luck.

 

The 17" 2012 MBP is a solid computer and I'm glad I held onto it. It has ethernet, FW, display port, USB x3, an optical drive and an express card slot. I wish I hadn't updated it to 10.13 because I lost some expensive software but otherwise the computer runs fine and I still use it. It will never get another OS update.

 

[Greg Mein]

2 hours ago, Anderton said:

 

giving the finger to the customers.

 

Apple has a long standing tradition of doing that. I've become extremely cautious of doing OS updates on my Macs, rarely does it actually offer any real improvements for users.

I recently updated my newest MBP (Intel i7 bought new in 2021) to 12.7.2 because I upgraded from Photoshop/Premiere Elements '23 to '24 and then discovered it was the minimum requirement. The update went smoothly but could very well be the last.

[analogika]

12 hours ago, Anderton said:

 

Which is why it's great that standards are becoming more inclusive. Thunderbolt can connect to USB-C. USB-C can connect to its former variants. Thunderbolt was designed to be able to connect with older protocols. That's why I find it odd that Apple appears to be deliberately fencing off a still-viable CoreAudio driver option for no apparent reason that I can see.

 

It’s a *little* more complicated than that. 
 

In my understanding, Apple has moved all tasks formerly handled by kernel extensions — drivers, in particular — into userspace for stability and security reasons. 
 

This is a Good Thing, as the kernel runs in its own space, and bad code in a device driver can’t affect it. 
 

Like with any transition, it means that any functionality you want needs to be REBUILT for the new format. 
 

Apple hasn’t deliberately removed functionality; they’ve opted not to invest the effort into obsolete tech (yes, it IS obsolete when no new tech device reliant on the format has been released in over a decade — we’re talking about the computer business, not the studio hardware business). 
 

The complaints are always the same — Apple dropped SCSI, their MacBooks dropped the PC Card slot („what the hell is ‚pro‘ about these machines?“ quoth my sound engineer friend), they went 64-bit (which affected not just drivers, but every single bit of legacy software in existence), it goes on and on. 
 

In the scope of things, I suppose a FireWire interface that’s at least a decade old and written-off several times over, sitting in a market where a significant number of users are of the „set it up and don’t touch it as long as it works“ mindset, really isn’t much of a concern — for Apple. 

[analogika]

10 hours ago, Greg Mein said:

 

The 2008 MBP was the worst dog in my history of using Macs. Mine was dead within a couple of years. something died on the MB and it was all over. Mine wasn't an isolated incident, apparently it was a known issue but of course it was out of warranty and I was out of luck.

 

Argh. The infamous NVIDIA graphics chip issue of 2007-2008. 
 

Apple offered an extended repair program for three years from date of purchase for those machines. But that just got you the same machine… I know so many people who got bitten by that. Some managed to resuscitate their machines by baking the MLB, but man…

[RABid]

Typical Apple. I remember fondly of times when they were considered a "green" company. They continue to hold to that mystic while silently filling our landfills with hardware they deem obsolete. They claim to be moving forward and forcing us to move with them, but in reality it would take very little to continue software support for these devices. A logical view of their history would indicate that the real purpose is to keep churning hardware. Can you think of any other manufacturing segment that tries to churn your devices so fast? People used to complain about how cars only lasted 100,000 miles and spread conspiracy theories that the big three automotive companies did everything possible to get you to buy new cars before you really need to. Now Apple and Samsung would have you believe that you have to get a new phone every year. Two at most.

 

I have a nice UA PCI quad card that used to work in my Mac Pro. It is now in a Windows PC. I've had firewire audio interfaces and still use a thunderbolt 2 UA Apollo. (And a few external drives.) It now requires and adapter because Apple cannot be bothered to put a Thunderbolt 2 port on their new computers. What Apple is doing is not progress. It is sacrificing the environment and our savings for the sake of higher profits. 

[analogika]

The last thing I want on my Mac is an old Mini DisplayPort/Thunderbolt 2 socket. Seriously? 
 

The adapter works fine, the protocols are downward-compatible. It’s not like FireWire, where it’s a completely different protocol that needs to be supported. 

[allan_evett]

I started reading this thread shortly after juggling a Time Machine back-up from my 2012 MacBook Pro to a Macally FireWire800/USB 2.0 portable HD. This 2012 MBP is still operating well (I use it in a private lesson space), though it's been 'hot-rodded' a bit: 1 TB Internal HD and maxed-out operating RAM. But apparently now the Time Machine back-up exceeds the Macally drives capacity. So, got to sort that out now.

 

Late last month my computer guru nephew discovered a way to run Ventura on this mid-2012 MBP, so I could run Logic Pro X 10.8 on it. That way my M2 Mac Mini and apparently 'ancient' MBP could swap Projects, etc. 

 

I used a basic, PreSonus FW interface back around 2010; then switched over to USB-based interfaces after that.  But I can understand the frustration that high-end FW interface users feel after this announcement by Apple. It's aggravating to have a stable, working studio space - with no small amount of investment - then have Core Audio connectivity discontinued. 

[KuruPrionz]

I switched to using USB ports a few years ago. 

Now, this is where we are today. 

 

I had a couple of Firewire interfaces a long time ago. Gone. I guess it's dead, like USB 1.

I didn't know we'd be here now but here we are. I do still have a single Thunderbolt 2 interface but I prefer my MOTU M6 at this point. 

Thunderbolt 2 works fine on my Mac mini with a TB2 to USB 3 adapter, I'm still using a couple of TB2 hard drives and they work great.

 

[Anderton]

2 hours ago, analogika said:

Apple hasn’t deliberately removed functionality; they’ve opted not to invest the effort into obsolete tech (yes, it IS obsolete when no new tech device reliant on the format has been released in over a decade — we’re talking about the computer business, not the studio hardware business). 

 

It is NOT "obsolete" tech. According to Merriam-Webster, obsolete means "no longer in use or no longer useful." FireWire audio interfaces (and video cameras) are most definitely in use and remain useful (at least for Mac users who didn't upgrade to Venture or Sonoma, and Windows users). "Old" or "unfashionable" technology is not the same as "obsolete" technology. I'm not asking Apple to include FireWire ports. I'm asking them to do what they said Thunderbolt would do.

 

2 hours ago, analogika said:

The complaints are always the same — Apple dropped SCSI, their MacBooks dropped the PC Card slot („what the hell is ‚pro‘ about these machines?“ quoth my sound engineer friend), they went 64-bit (which affected not just drivers, but every single bit of legacy software in existence), it goes on and on. 

 

I believe those are very different scenarios:

 

• When Apple removed floppy drives, you could still buy USB floppy drives and read/write your data. Apple didn't make it impossible to use your external floppy drive.
• When SCSI ports were taken off, the context was a) SCSI was an unreliable mess, and b) hard drive capacity was exploding. Yes, your SCSI drives were no longer useful, but they were hard drives - they were going to die anyway and back then, probably within a year or two. ATA gave faster speeds and allowed using higher-capacity drives - it represented a major improvement to consumers. Making it impossible for people to hook up FireWire audio devices is not an improvement. 
• PCIe slots never went away, they just went outside the computer - that's how Thunderbolt started. The hype about Thunderbolt being a breakthrough for low-latency audio was 100% marketing. PCIe-based interface cards had been achieving those levels of latency for years on Mac and Windows, using the same technology. Thanks to TB, removing PCIe slots did not lock out your ability to use PCIe cards.
• With 64-bit software, most companies were accommodating about delivering updated versions, sometimes free, sometimes rolled into a future update with added functionality you'd have to pay for anyway. But MOTU can't say "okay, Apple has discontinued TB to FW adapters, but we'll provide one so you can still get the most out of your investment." Because even if MOTU did offer an adapter, Apple won't let it hook into Core Audio.

 

As I said, if there's a convincing technical reason to leave it out (which neither I nor ChatGPT could find), that's a different story. Ableton said it would never be possible to record solo button presses in Live as part of a performance because the solo button was intended for diagnostic purposes, not performance, and they weren't going to tear their audio engine apart to make a change that I and many others wanted. I can accept that. I want to hear a similar reason from Apple as to why they saw no need to accommodate existing customers who had made significant investments in Firewire devices. If people can hack the OS to do it, surely the geniuses at Apple can figure it out without a significant expenditure of time and money. 

 

But beyond all that, there's the moral issue. Remember, this was the company where Steve Jobs expected you to throw out your iPod and buy another one when the battery died. Only consumer outrage got the company to change. Expecting people to send 100% functional electronic stuff - complete with toxic chemicals - into landfills or third-world countries just because Apple doesn't feel like retaining functionality is, IMHO, amoral. (Although the silver lining is Windows desktop users will probably be able to buy $2,499 Apollo FireWire interfaces for cheap on eBay, haha.) If you're going to say you're green, then make it a way of life, not just a marketing trope.

 

Again, if there's a good reason for this decision, I'm all ears. So far, all I hear is crickets.

 

52 minutes ago, KuruPrionz said:

I had a couple of Firewire interfaces a long time ago. Gone. I guess it's dead, like USB 1.

 

AFAIK no operating system locks out being able to use USB 1 interfaces, and they still work with USB 3 ports. Just like FireWire is supposed to work with Thunderbolt  

[KuruPrionz]

4 minutes ago, Anderton said:

AFAIK no operating system locks out being able to use USB 1 interfaces, and they still work with USB 3 ports. Just like FireWire is supposed to work with Thunderbolt  

I know USB 1 is not gone but in my experience you need at least USB 2 to make recordings without excessive latency. 

I try not to get in too deep with digital hardware. I know change is always coming. When I started with Photoshop 1.07 in a college class in the early 1990's we had Macs (Photoshop was not available for Windows back then) and if I recall correctly they'd been upgraded to 12mb of RAM. The hard drive was tiny and slow and floppy disc was the media of the day. Some 30 years later and digital hardware world is a completely different place. My Android phone is a much better computer than the old Mac. I hate the tiny screen but I have lots of power in my pocket, the camera and video functions are pretty decent, there's Google Maps and internet etc. etc. etc. 

 

We've come a long ways in a short time and there is no stability now. In fact, the pace of Innovation has accelerated considerably. Deep investment in digital may be required for companies to operate but individuals should approach with caution and expect to be left behind if they overspend. Sad, but true. 

[Greg Mein]

I still have a Presonus SL16.4.2, the original Studio/Live model with firewire 400. It's hands down the most high end mixer/interface I've ever bought and still works great, stand alone or with the 2012 MBP I bought around the same time shown in this thread. I had big plans for it when I bought it; had just moved into a really nice house with a huge basement I started turning into a studio but alas, life circumstances got in the way and all those plans fell apart. As a result the unit never got any real use.

 

It would be fine to still use for recording but I've long since moved on and all those channels are just overkill for anything I'm doing now. I probably still have at least six FW external drives as well. We actually used the mixer on a live performance a couple of months ago when I had someone who could run sound while we used in-ear monitors. I keep it because it's a great piece of gear I could still use. With six aux channels it's all I'd ever need for live performing and resale value is in the toilet anyway.

[ProfD]

Planned obsolescence in full effect. 😁

 

I have a brand new FireWire device stored away in a closet that I never got around to using because it was incompatible with my computers.

 

Millennials and Gen-Zers were born into a world of constant upgrading.

 

Those generations never had a chance to get used to anything other than basic human functions and needs.  Tech has been changing every few years in their world.

 

For Gen-Xers and the previous generations, we came from a time of legacy and heirloom.  We were born with attachments beyond our physical parts. You'll find these people perfect content with an iPhone 8.🤣

 

We thought our stuff (instruments, physical  media, recording equipment, computers, software, etc.), would last forever. 

 

I saw this handwriting on the wall decades ago with the invention of CDs, ADATs, DATs, ProTools, computers, software, etc. 

 

I knew everything associated with digital technology had a shorter shelf life in one way or another. 

 

Because it's a stream of 0s and 1s, we have to be prepared to roll with the punches, er, digits.

 

The best we can do is not get locked into proprietary protocols (hardware/software) and store digital data in such a way that it's always accessible. 

 

Towards the end, I plan to roll into the nursing home with my digital piano with USB audio recording/playback capability and thumb drives (audio) and a pair of headphones.🤣😎

[analogika]

4 hours ago, Anderton said:

 

It is NOT "obsolete" tech. According to Merriam-Webster, obsolete means "no longer in use or no longer useful." FireWire audio interfaces (and video cameras) are most definitely in use and remain useful (at least for Mac users who didn't upgrade to Venture or Sonoma, and Windows users). "Old" or "unfashionable" technology is not the same as "obsolete" technology. I'm not asking Apple to include FireWire ports. I'm asking them to do what they said Thunderbolt would do.

 

Oh, come on. By your definition, nothing is ever "obsolete", because somewhere on this planet, there's at least two people still using it, either because they require it to support some other (non-) obsolete piece of kit, or just for shits and giggles. 

 

My friend just bought a Sinclair ZX80. I'm sure it's not obsolete tech, despite being a home computer from 1982, because, hey, he's still using it. Just like the Commodore C64 he has. 

Apple has supported Firewire for more than a decade since the last release of machines that had it. I get where you're coming from: in studio hardware, lifespans are figured in decades, not years. 

I'd venture that anybody who bought Firewire hardware after 2012 knew exactly what they were getting into and did so just to stave off the inevitable. The interface protocol had a 25-year run — that's longer than just about anything except USB-A and fuckin' VGA. 

 

You want an editor for your Emulator II+ (not "obsolete", since people are still using it), you go find an old SE/30. 

 

4 hours ago, Anderton said:

 

• When Apple removed floppy drives, you could still buy USB floppy drives and read/write your data. Apple didn't make it impossible to use your external floppy drive.

 

I didn't mention floppy drives for that very reason. Every possible scenario involving floppies had a functionally identical or better alternative. 

 

4 hours ago, Anderton said:

 

• When SCSI ports were taken off, the context was a) SCSI was an unreliable mess, and b) hard drive capacity was exploding. Yes, your SCSI drives were no longer useful, but they were hard drives - they were going to die anyway and back then, probably within a year or two. ATA gave faster speeds and allowed using higher-capacity drives - it represented a major improvement to consumers. Making it impossible for people to hook up FireWire audio devices is not an improvement.   

 

That's absolutely NOT how it went down at the time. IDE/ATA was only useful for storage, and only really for internal storage, since cable lengths were limited. SCSI was used in a HUGE number of pro scenarios, for a number of non-storage devices (like scanners). SCSI allowed more devices, daisy-chaining, and had higher and more stable bandwidth. 

The argument that the SCSI drive was going to die in a few years, anyway, is as disingenuous as the argument that you shouldn't be complaining, since who would rely on Firewire hardware at least a decade old? It's a cough away from dying, anyway, right? 😉 

 

 

4 hours ago, Anderton said:

 

• PCIe slots never went away, they just went outside the computer - that's how Thunderbolt started. The hype about Thunderbolt being a breakthrough for low-latency audio was 100% marketing. PCIe-based interface cards had been achieving those levels of latency for years on Mac and Windows, using the same technology. Thanks to TB, removing PCIe slots did not lock out your ability to use PCIe cards.

 

Apple dropped the ExpressCard slots from all MacBooks Pro except the 17" in 2009. Thunderbolt wasn't available until February 2011. 

 

But yeah, I concede, since Apple at least offered a single model with ExpressCard to tide over the external chassis users until Thunderbolt was ready. 

 

4 hours ago, Anderton said:

 

• With 64-bit software, most companies were accommodating about delivering updated versions, sometimes free, sometimes rolled into a future update with added functionality you'd have to pay for anyway. But MOTU can't say "okay, Apple has discontinued TB to FW adapters, but we'll provide one so you can still get the most out of your investment." Because even if MOTU did offer an adapter, Apple won't let it hook into Core Audio.

 

"64-bit software wasn't an issue when it wasn't an issue", heh.  

The issue was (and still is) that every single bit of software that was fully functioning but no longer in active development died. Every hardware driver, every tool, every plugin, everything. 

 

I still have plugins I *loved* using, like Backwards Machine by The Sound Guy, that I really miss. 

 

Other software was at the mercy of the vendor. Just like when UAD refused to update drivers for their Firewire interfaces, even though they would still work perfectly. But they knew Firewire was deprecated and would be removed two or three OS versions later, and would rather sell you a new interface sooner than later — if they could pin the blame on Apple. 

 

4 hours ago, Anderton said:

As I said, if there's a convincing technical reason to leave it out (which neither I nor ChatGPT could find), that's a different story. Ableton said it would never be possible to record solo button presses in Live as part of a performance because the solo button was intended for diagnostic purposes, not performance, and they weren't going to tear their audio engine apart to make a change that I and many others wanted. I can accept that. I want to hear a similar reason from Apple as to why they saw no need to accommodate existing customers who had made significant investments in Firewire devices. If people can hack the OS to do it, surely the geniuses at Apple can figure it out without a significant expenditure of time and money. 

 

But beyond all that, there's the moral issue. Remember, this was the company where Steve Jobs expected you to throw out your iPod and buy another one when the battery died. Only consumer outrage got the company to change. Expecting people to send 100% functional electronic stuff - complete with toxic chemicals - into landfills or third-world countries just because Apple doesn't feel like retaining functionality is, IMHO, amoral. (Although the silver lining is Windows desktop users will probably be able to buy $2,499 Apollo FireWire interfaces for cheap on eBay, haha.) If you're going to say you're green, then make it a way of life, not just a marketing trope.

 

Again, if there's a good reason for this decision, I'm all ears. So far, all I hear is crickets.

 

 

AFAIK no operating system locks out being able to use USB 1 interfaces, and they still work with USB 3 ports. Just like FireWire is supposed to work with Thunderbolt  

 

 

 

 

4 hours ago, Anderton said:

As I said, if there's a convincing technical reason to leave it out (which neither I nor ChatGPT could find), that's a different story. Ableton said it would never be possible to record solo button presses in Live as part of a performance because the solo button was intended for diagnostic purposes, not performance, and they weren't going to tear their audio engine apart to make a change that I and many others wanted. I can accept that. I want to hear a similar reason from Apple as to why they saw no need to accommodate existing customers who had made significant investments in Firewire devices. If people can hack the OS to do it, surely the geniuses at Apple can figure it out without a significant expenditure of time and money. 

 

I've actually read reports where Firewire continued to work just fine in Ventura on systems that had been upgraded from Monterey. I haven't tested or thoroughly researched, but it would make sense, since technically, kernel extensions are still supported AFAIK. 

 

Also, I don't trust ChatGPT to "reason" or justify anything — I don't trust it for information I haven't verified, either, having had it explicitly lie to me before. 

 

But again: the "convincing" technical reason is that, to make it work, it would need a team to budget time and effort on making it work.

For a market that, as a matter of course, uses thirty-year-old hardware to support thirty-year-old hardware (that SE/30 for your Emulator II+ again...).  

 

4 hours ago, Anderton said:

But beyond all that, there's the moral issue. Remember, this was the company where Steve Jobs expected you to throw out your iPod and buy another one when the battery died. Only consumer outrage got the company to change. Expecting people to send 100% functional electronic stuff - complete with toxic chemicals - into landfills or third-world countries just because Apple doesn't feel like retaining functionality is, IMHO, amoral. (Although the silver lining is Windows desktop users will probably be able to buy $2,499 Apollo FireWire interfaces for cheap on eBay, haha.) If you're going to say you're green, then make it a way of life, not just a marketing trope.

 

Again, if there's a good reason for this decision, I'm all ears. So far, all I hear is crickets.

 

 

AFAIK no operating system locks out being able to use USB 1 interfaces, and they still work with USB 3 ports. Just like FireWire is supposed to work with Thunderbolt  

 

 

 

 

4 hours ago, Anderton said:

But beyond all that, there's the moral issue. Remember, this was the company where Steve Jobs expected you to throw out your iPod and buy another one when the battery died. Only consumer outrage got the company to change.

 

What now? What are you talking about here? 

 

 

 

4 hours ago, Anderton said:

AFAIK no operating system locks out being able to use USB 1 interfaces, and they still work with USB 3 ports. Just like FireWire is supposed to work with Thunderbolt  

 

Funny you mention that, because Tascam stopped supporting my 4-channel USB-1 US-428 interface after just a few years. Just stopped upgrading the drivers, and they stopped working at around 10.3 or so. 

The reason I'll never buy any computer-related products from that company. 

 

[Anderton]

1 hour ago, analogika said:

By your definition, nothing is ever "obsolete", because somewhere on this planet, there's at least two people still using it, either because they require it to support some other (non-) obsolete piece of kit, or just for shits and giggles. 

 

Not my definition, Miriam-Webster's. They don't specify a cutoff number of people using something. But check out some pro audio forums. The number of professionals upset about this move is not "two people still using [older gear] for shits and giggles."

 

1 hour ago, analogika said:

Funny you mention that, because Tascam stopped supporting my 4-channel USB-1 US-428 interface after just a few years. Just stopped upgrading the drivers, and they stopped working at around 10.3 or so. 

 

Which sucks. You won't get an argument from me about that. Nor about how it sucked when Apple told all Windows Logic users that the could just go suck an egg. Or the venture capital company that bought Gibson and ended all support for their super-expensive high-tech guitars. The list could go on forever. It's all part of the shift that positions companies as existing for the benefit of the stockholders and the internal management team, not the people for whom they make the products, nor the employees who make the products.

 

1 hour ago, analogika said:

What now? What are you talking about here? 

 

I don't have a problem with technology changing for the better. I was happy to replace analog tape with ADAT, and ADAT with hard disk recording. What I do have a problem with is waste*. After settling the iPod-related class action lawsuit ($50 credit to those who bought an iPod before May 2004), Apple promised to do better and is better than most. My MacBook Pros can't be updated anymore, but they still work fine and are built well enough that I'm not concerned about them dying from mechanical failure. Apple's phones are supported longer than most Android phones. I am personally not affected in any significant way from Apple dropping Core Audio FireWire. But any company that markets itself as being green must realize that e-waste and the throw-away mentality for products that still work is a HUGE problem. I would think they would want to minimize that problem as much as possible. I feel this is where Apple let us down. (Then again, I'm the kind of guy who pays to have my non-recyclable batteries ground into dust so they take up less space in landfills, and have been recycling anything I could since 1975. I realize I'm not in the majority.)

 

Granted this is a thread about Apple, but if you want to go on a tangent, Microsoft enabled much more egregious waste when they introduced Windows 11, given that many (most?) users would need to buy a new computer to run it. (And they weren't very clear that many computers already had the required Trusted Platform Module, and users would just need to enable it.) As a result, even as a free update, W11 adoption has been glacially slow. (Yes, I get that this all relates to the W12 roadmap. This isn't the place to get into that here, that topic is probably worthy of another thread.)

 

But I will give Microsoft credit for listening to the howls from users, reversing the "no more updates after EOL in 2025," and now committing the company to offer security updates for Windows 10 past EOL (albeit on a subscription basis). I don't expect Apple to listen to the pro audio community, but would love to be proven wrong. 

 

1 hour ago, analogika said:

But again: the "convincing" technical reason is that, to make it work, it would need a team to budget time and effort on making it work.

 

(BTW I didn't say ChatGPT is accurate. I said that I couldn't find any reason given by Apple, and it couldn't either.)

 

Your assumption that it may be a time-consuming, difficult task to suport Core Audio FireWire may be true. It may not be. We won't know if Apple won't tell us, so I'm not convinced. Apple's market cap is $2.08 trillion. If enabling Core Audio FireWire support is going to take a month, divert teams from the more important tasks of solving Sonoma issues that cause problems for current users, and ends up costing hundreds of thousands of dollars, that would be a very reasonable explanation. Then again, I'd be willing to bet there are hundreds of thousands of dollars of FireWire audio interfaces and video cameras still in use. If it cost a fraction of that to let those people keep using their gear in a secure computing environment using the computers they love, and I was running Apple, I would consider re-enabling FireWire Core Audio support as simply the right thing to do.

 

*Correction: The quote “iPod’s battery is only designed to last for the life of the iPod. You’re just supposed to throw it away and buy a new one" was not attributed to Jobs himself. It was attributed to an Apple representative.

[analogika]

I just Googled "iPod battery class action" and found that it referred to battery life of the first three generations not holding up to marketing claims in some cases. 

It has nothing at all to do with batteries not being replaceable. (In fact, a friend of mine replaced the battery of his 1st-gen 10 GB iPod himself at some point. Mine 5 GB was fine for years and years.)

[Notes_Norton]

The upgrade or die policy is the thing I dislike about Apple. I know it means increased revenue for them, but it seems unfair to me.

 

I have software from the 1980s that still works fine on Windows. And unlike Apple, Windows plays well with others.

 

Fortunately, my Band-in-a-Box aftermarket business makes it imperative that I use Windows. And now that the file data for the Windows version of BiaB is compatible with the Mac version, I no longer need to have a Mac.

 

I know some love Apple, they make wonderful hardware, and that's OK for them, but not for me.

 

Notes ♫

[Anderton]

https://electronics.howstuffworks.com/how-to-tech/how-to-replace-ipod-battery.htm#pt1

5 hours ago, analogika said:

I just Googled "iPod battery class action" and found that it referred to battery life of the first three generations not holding up to marketing claims in some cases. 

 

That's what the suit was about, but "not holding up to marketing claims" was winnable legal shorthand for a raft of complaints. Remember, this was 20 years ago. Prior to the iPod, consumer devices with non-replaceable batteries were rare. People were not only upset that they couldn't replace the batteries; they could be fixed only by Apple (there were no authorized iPod service centers) and IIRC the price to replace a $10 battery varied, but it was initially around $85. That's $138 in today's dollars.

 

Apple certainly wasn't the first company to consider repairs a high-margin profit center. But if the battery life had been longer people might not have been so upset that it was difficult and expensive to replace, so they zeroed in on battery life as the overriding issue that caused the other problems.

 

Because I was aware of the battery isues, I bought a Creative Labs Zen player in 2004 because it had a replaceable battery. The irony is that I never had to replace the battery. It still works, but I keep music on my smartphone now.

 

This article does a good job of describing the genesis and resolution of the iPod suit. Scroll down to "Changing iPod Batteries: Apple's Way."

[Anderton]

3 hours ago, Notes_Norton said:

The upgrade or die policy is the thing I dislike about Apple. I know it means increased revenue for them, but it seems unfair to me.

 

To be fair, it's also what pays for R&D. I don't think we'd have Apple Silicon if the company wasn't worth as much as it is. And they're upfront about it. If you want to be on the bleeding edge, you pay a premium for an Apple product and it will be (mostly) the most advanced product you can buy at that time. Microsoft is equally upfront about their design goals, which are dictated by being chained to 70% of the desktop PCs used for business (macOS has 20% market share). Backward compatiblity and long product lives are essential for that business model.

 

Without being flippant about it, musicians who want backward compatibility and a long product life should go for Windows. Those who want premium performance and are willing to pay for it should go for Apple. Or be like me - use Windows for the cost-effective heavy lifting, and Apple for the fun stuff.

[analogika]

26 minutes ago, Anderton said:

 

Not my definition, Miriam-Webster's. They don't specify a cutoff number of people using something. But check out some pro audio forums. The number of professionals upset about this move is not "two people still using [older gear] for shits and giggles."

 

Yeah, Merriam-Webster's. Would you agree, then, that neither the Atari ST nor the Commodore C64 could be considered "obsolete", since people are still using them? 

Or would you agree with me that the definition you cited is completely useless in our context? 

Also, I haven't been on gearslu…gearspace in a looooong time, but from what I remember, the people making the most noise on those forums back in the day whenever company x (usually Apple) made some decision certainly weren't the ones busy running studios. 
 

I'm not saying I can't relate. I'm saying that a) this has been obviously coming for almost FIFTEEN YEARS, and b) there are two very, very simple solutions here: 
1) don't upgrade
2) use hardware that works with your outboard stuff. 

I'm not affected, either, but that's because I opted for a hardware manufacturer who doesn't believe in planned obsolescence: as I wrote, Metric Halo offers upgrades for ALL their hardware, going back TWENTY years. 

I propose that every single interface manufacturer KNOWS how computer evolution works and knowingly plans for x years of support, regardless of what Apple may or may not do. MH Labs is the only manufacturer I know that actually offers hardware upgrades to take into account the inevitable hardware changes. I don't think any other manufacturer expects their hardware to be used twenty or more years. 

 

26 minutes ago, Anderton said:

Your assumption that it may be a time-consuming, difficult task to suport Core Audio FireWire may be true. It may not be. We won't know if Apple won't tell us, so I'm not convinced. Apple's market cap is $2.08 trillion. If enabling Core Audio FireWire support is going to take a month, divert teams from the more important tasks of solving Sonoma issues that cause problems for current users, and ends up costing hundreds of thousands of dollars, that would be a very reasonable explanation. Then again, I'd be willing to bet there are hundreds of thousands of dollars of FireWire audio interfaces and video cameras still in use. If it cost a fraction of that to let those people keep using their gear in a secure computing environment using the computers they love, and I was running Apple, I would consider re-enabling FireWire Core Audio support as simply the right thing to do.

 

It may just come down to this: How much would it cost Apple, going forward through multiple generations of macOS, and how much money are the people still using fifteen-year-old interfaces likely to make Apple? 

 

There may be other issues, as well, including people in charge of maintaining the CoreAudio Firewire stack having left the company. I do know audio over Firewire is a complex issue, as I recall BJ from Metric Halo actually having coded a fix for a long-standing FW bug in Mac OS X, which was incorporated into a later release. 
Maybe they're streamlining architectures across iPad/macOS and throwing out everything that won't make sense on both platforms (no point in adding Firewire to iPad)... Who knows? 

 

BTW, I doubt that there is a significant number of people still using DV cams and their 720p resolution for much else other than retro charm. We actually used my wife's DV cam precisely for that, last year. Our iPhone cameras surpassed DV quality a decade ago. 😉 

[Notes_Norton]

8 hours ago, Anderton said:

To be fair, it's also what pays for R&D.

 

That's a good point. But Microsoft does a lot of R&D without abandoning the old. I also remember a few MS products that had conversion tools to change the old file data format to the new one when they changed a product.

 

8 hours ago, Anderton said:

Without being flippant about it, musicians who want backward compatibility and a long product life should go for Windows.

 

Put me in that camp. The then future Mrs. Notes and I left a troubled 5-piece band and started our duo in 1985. Other than the COVID pause, we have never been out of work, and had to block off vacation times or else we wouldn't get one.

 

In the early days, before Standard MIDI Files, we used a hardware sequencer that saved files in its proprietary language. I had two. Then SMF came along.

 

When one of the sequencers failed, I lost 300 songs. There was no conversion from the old format to SMF, and in the pre-Internet days it was impossible to find another. So I limped with the single sequencer, redoing songs and saving them in SMF format. After I had converted about 50, the other sequencer started to give up the ghost. Every bit of my spare time was spent deciding which songs needed to be replaced. The time making a new song was about the same as redoing an old one, so many of the songs didn't make the cut. I was the sequence man for months and months.

 

Since then, I've tried to do as much as I can with cross-platform and back-compatibility.

 

I need dependability and back compatibility more than I need bleeding edge tech.

 

The last Apple products I owned were a big beautiful eMac, and iPod and an iPad. Nice products, but they don't play well with others, and that's what I require most of all.

 

Of course, that's just me. I'm in the “The Show Must Go On” camp. Since I went pro, decades ago, I've never missed a gig or had a failure that stopped the show (I carry a lot of spare gear).

 

Insights and incites by Notes ♫

[analogika]

6 minutes ago, Notes_Norton said:

 

That's a good point. But Microsoft does a lot of R&D without abandoning the old. I also remember a few MS products that had conversion tools to change the old file data format to the new one when they changed a product.

 

So does Logic. 😉 

 

7 hours ago, Anderton said:

Without being flippant about it, musicians who want backward compatibility and a long product life should go for Windows. Those who want premium performance and are willing to pay for it should go for Apple. Or be like me - use Windows for the cost-effective heavy lifting, and Apple for the fun stuff.

 

I kind of get what you're saying, but really: There is no shortage of fully functional dual G5 machines still around, at twenty years of age. "Long product life" is not a Wintel hallmark. I have a functional Macintosh SE from 1990 in the basement, and my 2000 iMac DV *should* still work (though the Firewire port blew years ago, due to Apple not following their own spec for bus power surge protection). 

Those machines no longer get updates, but — apart from Firewire, which was why I retired the iMac — they should still do exactly what they could when they were last set up. 

 

Any Mac released prior to September 2022 is perfectly capable of working with Firewire audio interfaces — you just have to apply the old maxim of "set it and forget it" that virtually all studios went by back in the 1990s. 

[RABid]

On 12/20/2023 at 11:16 AM, analogika said:

The adapter works fine

Nothing gives me more joy than collecting and keeping up with a bag of adapters for my laptop. I'm a collector. Bought two of those Thunderbolt 2 adapters you spoke of. They must be really good considering Apple is charging $50 for the adapter when they could have spent $5 or much less to build it in. But, that is why I love my Mac. I get to buy Thunderbolt adapters, USB 1/2 adapters, Firewire adapters. The fun never ends. 🤪