OT - How to forget when you have been scammed?

[Jose EB5AGV]

I write this here because it has been a fraudulent synth sale and, even if the amount was not large (the involved item was a Yamaha Reface YC), I feel like crap since realized it was an scam.

 

We live in a world were the ethics standards are not at their best. And I should have been suspicious by the way the seller contacted me (directly by WhatsApp instead of using the PM system of the website I used to place my want ad for such instrument), the good price (about 30% below usual sales) and then, the way to pay (a system which is similar to an instant bank transfer)

 

Yes, looking back now, there were so many alerts than I am blaming myself for not detecting them. I was blinded by the opportunity.

 

It was a cumulus of things which made me let my guard down. I was spending a day with friends, far from home, was in a very good mood, and thought I was just lucky to have found what I wanted at a good price.

 

All in all, since I began buying things using Internet, back in 1996, I have just a couple of scam experiences, like this one, from thousands of transactions. And the previous one was 20 years ago. So I guess this was also part of the decision: "I know what I do". Oh well...

 

Sorry for the rant, I needed to share this. Now everyone knows how "smart" I have been. For sure, time will heal this, but right now I feel really bad.

 

Thanks for reading!

 

Jose

[The Real MC]

I bought plenty of stuff from eBay during the 2006-2016, by 2016 I had everything I wanted and bought very little since.  I never once was scammed.  Never did buy from Reverb, CL was a lot of junk that wouldn't sell on the auction sites.  But I can say that since 2016 the reports of scams did become more frequent.  Today it is too easy to steal images of gear and build a fake sale, and harder to detect.  I probably would had been scammed today so don't feel bad.

[DeltaJockey]

I'm so sorry to hear what has happened. You are far from alone, and how you feel is understandable, and exactly how any decent person in this situation would feel. I am constantly reading stories in my local media about the prevalence of this happening, and case stories of highly savvy and educated people having the same thing happen, because of an unfortunate combination of circumstances allowing them to let their guard down. You can't be on alert 100 percent of the time, and you risk genuine enquiries if you are always suspicious. Like yo said, it's the "out of routine" red flags you chose to ignore, because you were feeling optimistic and trusting.

 

Only today did I decide to advertise my Korg D1, within minutes of listing it, I only had messenger replies form scammers. In my case very predictable, and I sometimes make entertainment fodder of them, by leading them along, and wasting their time. Even though it matters not to them if I do that, it provides me a sense of personal revenge gratification. Who knows if in the end I make a sale, as the market seems quite depressed lately with our cost of living.

[Baldwin Funster]

I just got a good deal on an item from ebay. It was maybe 40% less than all the other listing of the same item. The seller feedback was 100% on a couple 100 transactions, but that is apparently spoofable these days with account hijacking. But the item was shipped pretty promptly and I got it from Texas in 3 business days. Meanwhile I read a couple  of scam alerts and wondered if my good deal was too good to be true.

It wasn't. Too good to be true that is. 

 

So sometimes a good deal is just a good deal. All you can do is check the seller feedback and comments and look for flags in the ad text. Unfortunately in this internet world where local sales don't exist anymore if you stop buying on internet platforms you stop buying anything used altogether.

My last purchase was on Reverb, same thing. Good deal, wondered if I got scammed while waiting and in the end I was not scammed. I realize getting scammed happens and I could be next..

How do you forget and move on to buying again after being a scam victim? I guess time will go by and some other good deal catch your eye and you take a risk again.

 

[JamPro]

I'm sorry you got cheated.

 

Keep this adage in mind: "Fool me once, shame on you.  Fool me twice, shame on me."  This saying reminds us that yes people will try to cheat you, and if you get taken, the fault is on the cheater, not you - so stop blaming yourself.  But now that you have been reminded, do review your security measures and adjust as needed.  Because if you don't, you will find yourself cheated again.  And the second time is your fault.

[Old No7]

I think scammers should be hung from street poles until they rot...

 

But that aside, on a few sporting related sites I am on, the moderators require you to post a photo of the image you're selling along with a piece of paper places on it -- the paper must be lined (blank paper not allowed), with the date of the posting and your forum name and price written out -- not computer generated.  The lines on the paper and hand-writing make it hard (so I'm told) to fake the photo; and dated-paper placed on the item shows proof you own it and have it in your possession to sell.  I have to say it's been really effective for those sites and buyers.

 

Old No7

[bfields]

9 hours ago, Jose EB5AGV said:

All in all, since I began buying things using Internet, back in 1996, I have just a couple of scam experiences, like this one, from thousands of transactions.

 

So long as the gain from the average successful transactions is more than a thousandth of the loss from the scams, I'd say you're coming out ahead!

 

All in all I'm pretty amazed by how trustworthy a randomly chosen member of the public usually is.  Most of my dealings with strangers work out fine. (But of course when someone contacts you with a deal, that person is no longer "randomly chosen".)

 

Anyway, there's no reasoning yourself out of these feelings, in my experience.  I feel like crap for a while and then I get over it.  My sympathies.  Being around people seems to help....

[CHarrell]

People here have already been sharing wise words, but to add my perspective: a couple years ago, I...ahem...was scammed and caught in a very compromising position. I'll spare the details on how it came to that point, but the end result is I had scammers threatening to blast out extremely embarrassing pictures and videos of me to all of my friends on social media and WhatsApp...we're talking personal friends, colleagues, professional connections...lots of people! In that moment, I felt like all the blood had drained from my body, I felt trapped, and I felt like such a extreme idiot for allowing myself to even get in that situation...but I didn't even have time to process it because the scammer was constantly hounding me on WhatsApp for a payment, asking for tens of thousands of dollars. If I didn't respond for a minute, they'd up the threat.

 

And I'll tell you something, I was so scared and desperate, I was almost going to pay them. I told them I didn't have enough to pay all that, and they demanded I give them whatever I had on my bank account IMMEDIATELY. What did I do? I blocked them on WhatsApp. What happened? Nothing. Nobody got those pictures or videos except for these weirdos perpetrating the scam in the first place.

 

Later that night, an officer had returned a call I made about the scam, and consoled me: at the end of the day, this happens all the time, and I won: a number of people, when confronted with scam situations, have done very drastic things in response...not to put too fine a point on it, but you and I are both here, so we're not in that category.

 

As well, the Buddhism I practice has a concept called "lessening our karmic retribution". To describe it simply, it means that while our tendencies might lead to a negative effect in our life, we also have the ability to "cushion" those effects. You could say that that mitigated bad result is in itself a form of protection. You said it yourself, it was only a couple hundred dollars. You feel bad about that, imagine if it was thousands, tens of thousands? But now, with a relatively light consequence, you have the opportunity to learn and grow without much harm. You can be vigilant without being paranoid, and have mental flags now about what looks suspicious. (That said, see if you can contact your bank or payment sevice or whatever and dispute this charge as fraudulent).

 

Last thing: that officer told me that while I felt crushed in that moment, the feeling would fade over time, and he was completely right (as you said in your OP). A couple years later, I can share this at the time traumatic experience with a sense of humor. And to build on that further,  you DON'T want to forget this experience. In time, you could even wear your experience as a badge of honor!

[confidence]

The relative geographical compactness of the UK is an advantage here. When buying anything expensive like substantial music gear, I would try to find one within driving distance. Even if that means driving 2-3 hours it's worth it for a major new purchase, and I'm within that distance of London so there's usually a fair selection. So I use Ebay for the range and convenience, but then go view and try out the gear "old school" before paying.

 

Not sure about how useful seller feedback ratings on Ebay are. I know the one time as a seller that I was dicked around by a buyer, who "won" the auction and then failed to pay or respond to communication, I tried to leave a negative feedback for him as a warning to other sellers and it was basically impossible to do so. I don't know if the same restrictions apply the other way around, but I did wonder what the point of the feedback system was then.

[Jose EB5AGV]

In my case, the "seller" is about 800km from me and the amount involved is 190€. And I don't have an exact address, as he contacted me outside the Spanish music forum I used to put my ad looking for the gear. Anyway, it was not logical to pickup the item in this case.

 

For larger and more expensive things I also like to buy personally. My Kawai VPC1 was bought at 400km from my home and I did the trip back on same day, along my beloved controller 🤩

[MathOfInsects]

I fell for the "white van speaker scam" (google it!) years ago, and still hate that I did. 

A few months ago I bought a used computer online, and they shipped a computer 10 years older than the one I bought and paid for. Fortunately that one was covered by backmarket's return policy. But even then, the seller tried to claim I sent it back damaged. Fortunately I had about 100 pics I took at every single stage of the packing and shipping, so that one died on the vine. 

 

I think scams are probably as plentiful (percentage-wise) as they ever were, it's just that there are so many more transactions taking place online that there are proportionately more online scams. But the upside is that if that computer transaction had been in the "old days," I'd have been flat-out screwed. In this case it was a momentary bit of suckage that ended with me getting my money back. 

[Dr Mike Metlay]

Before I share my current policies on this, I should note that these days I'm not very vulnerable to scams. First, my actual gear collection is very small and my want list even smaller (and it's mostly stuff I could buy new from a dealer at no risk), and second, the monetary amounts involved are relatively small, since I sold all my vintage gear years ago and have zero interest in owning any more. Considering how many people here enjoy the constant buying and selling inherent to an ever-changing rig - thereby exposing themselves to a lot more risk - I am not sure how applicable my advice is.

 

That said:

 

I very, very rarely list anything online for sale. I would rather sit on something I can't sell for a while than go to the time and hassle of an online sale.

 

Similarly, I tend to be very cautious about buying stuff online. I used to buy cheap gear on eBay a lot, and most of what I got was pretty beat up. Since leaving eBay, I have done well in the half dozen or so Reverb transactions I've been part of. Still, every time I come out on top, I feel like I have won a bet at the roulette table. I know I am being paranoid and not giving the vast majority of buyers and sellers out there enough credit, but there it is.

 

These days, I transact only with people I know, with the assurance that if something's wrong, the seller will make it right. It's much less stressful, and I build a reputation for being a fair trader (in a way that can't be faked) among a community of people that I like and respect, and who are therefore inclined to trust and respect me in return. All-around win, even if I have trouble finding buyers sometimes.

 

mike

[Docbop]

By not letting go you continuing to let that scammer live rent free in your head he's continuing to scam you.     I'm sure you have better things to fill that place in your head with let go. 

[o0Ampy0o]

"How to forget when you have been scammed?" Those who ignore history are destined to repeat it. Forgetting it happened is not the route to ease the pain of being stung. If you have a pattern of doing this many times figure out how to get control of it. Otherwise part of some lessons is the sting. In the future when your heightened awareness sheds light on clues you could overlook you will appreciate the scars of lessons learned whether the hard or softest way. Instead of forgetting try accepting there is something to gain from recognizing our imperfection.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[S_Gould]

Ampy's got ahold of something there. Don't forget you've been scammed, just let go of how it made you feel, and count it as a learned lesson. The best lessons tend to come hard, but run deep.

[AUSSIEKEYS]

On 9/1/2023 at 8:29 PM, DeltaJockey said:

Only today did I decide to advertise my Korg D1, within minutes of listing it, I only had messenger replies form scammers.  

 

And this man is a very honourable seller so those scammers can "get stuffed" 

 

I bought a keyboard off Delta after he contacted me thru this forum after i said a few times i was thinking of getting a certain keyboard second hand.

 

Id seen some of his postings before hand and i think thats the beauty of this forum that i felt comfortable to explore the possibity.

 

I opted to talk on phone with him (as is my way with any long distance purchase) before driving 6 hours to purchase mainly because i hate typing copious questions. I knew straight away from talking with him that this was a beaut condition keyboard.

 

Coincidentally I was going near his town for holidays in a few months and he held it for me thus making pick-up a secondary consideration to the holiday. After talking to him on phone i wouldnt have hesitated to buy via shipping off him. 

 

So Jose my keyboard wasnt a lot either but if you can try to talk on phone to seller if possible you can certainly reduce the chance of a scam by hearing their voice. 

 

DeltaJockey and I remain friends to this day. I hope one day to visit the holiday area again to catch up with him in person once my house move is over.

 

Basically i try not to buy anything i cant pickup or cant get to know the seller as in a forum or phone call. 

 

 

ps: i have added this to the above.

 

Also like you Jose I am not in US so not much comes up on here for me to buy. Shame for us eh?

 

But i use the above approach with buying on online platforms like gumtree and fbook if i can.

 

Ive stopped buying on ebay only because i left it as a seller when they changed to managed payments. So they lost me as a buyer too by changing. (They lost a lot of buyers that way).

 

Ebay is too difficult to ask for a number so i approached it by checking Seller very carefully before purchase if something seems not right.

 

Going back to a saying in my  days as a Graphic designer/artist

 

"When in doubt leave it out."

 

In our context. When in doubt dont buy.

 

[Jose EB5AGV]

45 minutes ago, AUSSIEKEYS said:

So Jose my keyboard wasnt a lot either but if you can try to talk on phone to seller if possible you can certainly reduce the chance of a scam by hearing their voice

 

This is what tricked me finally... As the first time the payment failed, and I told that to the seller,  he called me!. He had a reasonable story for the keyboard, and I was convinced by it.

 

So, as you can see, it was a really bad combination of circumstances and facts which decided me to buy.

 

Perhaps my wording on this topic subject is not the best. What I really meant is how I can forgive myself to be so silly.

 

Thank you all for sharing your thoughts and experiences 🫂

 

[AUSSIEKEYS]

48 minutes ago, Jose EB5AGV said:

  he called me!. He had a reasonable story for the keyboard, and I was convinced 

 Oh bugger. Thats as much as you could have done. 

 

How long has it been? Is there any chance it may show up. Or is it far beyond a simple delay?

 

 

[Jose EB5AGV]

13 minutes ago, AUSSIEKEYS said:

 Oh bugger. Thats as much as you could have done. 

 

How long has it been? Is there any chance it may show up. Or is it far beyond a simple delay?

 

 

 

No, I know positively it is a fraud. I found, after realizing my mistake, that the guy had plenty of previous scam attempts (and for sure some worked for him). The way I found it was first looking for the phone number where I sent the money. That lead me to a thread commenting on that number and the exact same way to procedd as he did with me. Then I got the name from the payment I had done by what is called "Bizum", and using that name and the word "fraud" in Spanish, I located another page where people complained about a year and a half ago (then he used another phone number). And, the last nail, I went to the Police to file a complaint, and using his identification number (which I got tricking him on another offer he made to me, as I kept him thinking I had not found out he had tricked me; that was my little revenge 😈), the policeman told me he had plenty of previous crimes on record. He could not disclose more details, but his face denoted it was a big list.

 

So, yes, I am sure I won't see my money back soon. And, given it is less than 400€, it is considered an "small fault" and so I am not confident to reach any crime trial. But, at least, he will have another complaint filed against him and, who knows, someday even some punishment.

[CyberGene]

This is one of the reasons why I never buy second hand and why I only sell my gear to buyers that come to pick it up. 
 

I know that there can be bargains but life is more than bargains. 
 

Jose, sorry to hear about your misfortune. Hope you can get your money back. 

[Jose EB5AGV]

3 hours ago, CyberGene said:

This is one of the reasons why I never buy second hand and why I only sell my gear to buyers that come to pick it up. 
 

I know that there can be bargains but life is more than bargains. 
 

Jose, sorry to hear about your misfortune. Hope you can get your money back. 

 

Well, if I had only bought new music gear, I would not own about 80% of the items I have, or I would have spent more than double than I did.

 

Also, buying used gear has been a way to meet interesting people in the music world, as some first class players (my white Montage 6 is one example; I got it from a famous Spanish keys player)

 

And my synth repair work (part, if small, of my daily work), which began as a hobby, has been possible because of the used synths, needing some work, which I have been buying over the years.

 

So I am all in to keep doing this!. Just need to remind myself to be more careful 🙏🏻😅

 

Jose

[JoJoB3]

You don't.  Revenge is the only way out. You must become the villain you despise.

Kidding.
Am I kidding?

 

[Leroy C]

I definitely agree with those who are saying you shouldn't forget, but you should forgive ... yourself, that is!  The world is a really complicated place these days, and sometimes there's scammy stuff that seems legit and legit stuff that seems scammy, and it's often difficult to tell the difference.

 

My wife got a job a while back, long-term temporary, the companying using a third-party employment agency.  That agency behaved in all sorts of ways that seemed scammy as hell to me: constant barrage of phone calls, texts, emails, asking for information they should have already had (e.g., her birthday), demanding responses immediately, calling from phone numbers that had area codes from several states away, etc.  We talked directly to the company that was using the agency to confirm that it was legit, but even they agreed the particular agent assigned by the agency was behaving inappropriately.  He was removed from her case immediately and replaced by someone much more professional, but for a while there, I was looking at our banking accounts pretty closely ...

 

Anyway, my too-long point is that it is legitimately hard to tell these days, and the way that things work require a certain bare-minimum level of trust, otherwise we're just back to the State of Nature ...  Anyone could have trouble navigating 21st century life once in a while, so don't be so hard on yourself!

[CyberGene]

Jose, it would be helpful if you could also describe the exact mechanism of the fraud, so that other people know how to recognize it. The scammers can be very creative and even very cautious people can be mislead.

 

In my poor country (Bulgaria) we have serious issues with phone scammers that call elderly people and come up with all sorts of stories around how they are their children or relatives, and how they were hurt in a car accident and need money for surgery or something like that, I'm not even sure how they manage to convince them (these are usually really old people who already have cognitive degradation), but in most of these cases these old people throw their life savings, like e.g. $10-20k in a bag of cash through the balcony 😱 And what's more interesting is the guy who's getting the bag is one who has been scammed with some other story to get the bag, so it's almost impossible to catch the real receiver of the money. It's also a reasonable good question why elderly people here keep all their savings in cash but that's a sad memory of Bulgarian history when in the early 90-s we went through a hyperinflation and many people would find their entire life savings turned into pennies overnight, so there's some general distrust towards banks in elderly people.

 

Now, what's interesting is there's a lot of awareness among elderly people about these phone scammers and they are wary, but then the scammers come up with even more inventive scams, such as one case when the scammers told an elderly man they are the police and are working on a anti-phone-scam case and would appreciate the assistance of the old man in capturing the scammers, so he should still give them the money but they will then intercept it and return to them, etc 🤣 OK, it's not funny, since the poor guy fell for it 😢

 

Anyway, what I'm saying is, it would be great if all possible schemes are shared, so that people learn to recognize them.

[Jose EB5AGV]

11 minutes ago, CyberGene said:

Jose, it would be helpful if you could also describe the exact mechanism of the fraud, so that other people know how to recognize it. The scammers can be very creative and even very cautious people can be mislead

 

Well, my case was blatantly simple: I setup an advertisement on a local music instruments forum, looking for Yamaha Reface YC and CS models. I got some legit messages, using the forum messaging system. But all were too expensive (those items new are here about 370€, VAT included, and offers were around 300€). Some days went on and, one day, I got a WhatsApp message of someone offering me a Reface YC for 180€ plus shipping. I have got my other Refaces (DX and CP) for 200 and 220€, so that was not too far from that.

 

He sent me some pictures which seemed legit. I was not at home, so my PC was not available. I use to do some checkings when I buy online in that kind of non-standard way, as looking for the phone number of the seller, just in case there is something suspicious, looking for pictures of same unit, just in case he has used one grabbed from other place, and such. But, that time, I was in good mood, partying with friends, and jumped all the usual checkings and, as the first payment failed, trusted the seller because I talked to him and all seemed completely normal.

 

Then the payment... He asked for a Bizum, which is an instant bank transfer. It is a usual way to pay here, but only when you have some kind of external coverage at least, or is a person you trust. In this case, it was like throwing the money to the pit!!!

 

Up to this point, I was not yet aware of any scam... Then I returned home and had a message from the scammer, telling me that he had already sent the unit and that he had a friend with a Reface CS for sale. That was the instant I realized my fault. I asked for the tracking of the shipment and also for the price of the CS. Even if I knew it was an scam, I wanted to get more proofs to be used against the thief. He ignored the tracking question and sent me pictures of a Reface CS, and told me his friend wanted 170€ for it... and that he would take care of all. OMG, what a wonderful soul I had found, out of nowhere!

 

So I searched his phone on Internet and the scam had been tried just days before, on several other people on a similar forum. Then I looked for the full name plus "scam" (in Spanish) and also there were some comments here and there. There were traces of him all around, once you knew what to look for.

 

Next day I went to the Police station to file a claim, while keeping him still thinking I was going to pay again. I told him the Bizum payment had failed and asked for a bank account and his full name to proceed. He provided them. And then I told him my bank asked for an identification number (DNI in Spain) and he provided it (what a fool!). I provided all that info to the Police and they told me that person had a lot of previous offenses.

 

So, that was it: got an offfer OUTSIDE the system. It was a LOW BALL offer. And PAYMENT WAY WAS NOT REFUNDABLE. Three obvious faults on my defense line!

 

Jose

[KuruPrionz]

At this point, I buy mostly live and in person - thrift stores or craigslist.

I've never been scammed on eBay, buying or selling and I have almost 1,000 positive feedback on there. 

I've used Reverb a little, no problems. 

 

One resource I've used and will use again is Microphone Parts.com. I've upgraded a couple of MXL thrift store mics with their upgraded capsules and circuit boards/transformers and I built a complete kit mic - T-67, it's fantastic. They are solid and you can call them on the phone so pretty hard for somebody to impersonate. 

[Jose EB5AGV]

1 minute ago, KuruPrionz said:

At this point, I buy mostly live and in person - thrift stores or craigslist.

I've never been scammed on eBay, buying or selling and I have almost 1,000 positive feedback on there. 

I've used Reverb a little, no problems. 

 

One resource I've used and will use again is Microphone Parts.com. I've upgraded a couple of MXL thrift store mics with their upgraded capsules and circuit boards/transformers and I built a complete kit mic - T-67, it's fantastic. They are solid and you can call them on the phone so pretty hard for somebody to impersonate. 

 

That is what was more excruciating to me: having experience buying and selling tons of things online since 1997, falling to that simple fraud is what made me feel so bad.

 

But well, let's move on from that bad experience and keep playing music!!!. That joy, nobody can steal from you.

[KuruPrionz]

40 minutes ago, Jose EB5AGV said:

 

That is what was more excruciating to me: having experience buying and selling tons of things online since 1997, falling to that simple fraud is what made me feel so bad.

 

But well, let's move on from that bad experience and keep playing music!!!. That joy, nobody can steal from you.

Lesson learned, keep the knowledge and ditch the regret! Cheers, Kuru

[MathOfInsects]

2 hours ago, Jose EB5AGV said:

 

That is what was more excruciating to me: having experience buying and selling tons of things online since 1997, falling to that simple fraud is what made me feel so bad.

 

But well, let's move on from that bad experience and keep playing music!!!. That joy, nobody can steal from you.

You can also depreciate the fraud over all those years of good transactions. I probably shouldn't admit this, but I play "parking enforcement roulette" more often than I should when parking or loading in to gigs. Maybe it's 5:15 and I know the yellow is going to be available for parking starting at 6:00, or I'm in a metered spot and I gamble against that 45 minutes until the spot is free being when the parking demons come by. The fact is, I'm almost always on the "winning" side of that gamble, to the point where, when I got a $35 ticket for it last month, I was like, "seems fair. Still cheaper than paying every time."

So if you attrite the cost of this particular calculated risk (which is what it was) against your decades of good sales, it added maybe half a dollar to each of those sales, maybe less. Worth it for the possibility of a "real" sale and the thrill of the hunt, plus the refresher-lesson learned. 

[bfields]

Long experience sometimes works against our own safety, I think.

 

The first time I try something new, I check everything.  The 1000th time, it's routine and I don't think much of cutting a corner or two....