Joe Cole Posted August 17, 2004 Share Posted August 17, 2004 Hello guys, I was on ProSoundweb's forum looking up some opinions on PSP's Vintage Warmer. The owner of the Bomb Factory is a poster. He blasted PSP and any product that has the word "pro" or "tube" in it's title or has more then 3 knobs. He said that is for the Cubase/Sonar crowd. It got me thinking... what do you associate with the home studio/ project studio/ pro/ insane gear monkey studio? Home: Sonar/Cubase/ ProTools Mbox - Sound Forge - Acid - Ozone - Sm57 - M-Audio monitors Project Studio: ProTools HD/Logic/Nuendo - Reason - WaveLab - DFH/BFD/Drumagog - UAD-1/PowerCore - Waves - AKG condenser mics - KRK or Event Monitors Pro Studio: ProTools HD - Neve/Trident board - Westlake/Adam monitors Money is no object Studio: http://www.bombfactory.net/studio/ The part that really got to me is that these incredibly equipped studios still turn out stuff that sounds overhyped or flat. You can have a less lavishly equiped studio and to get the same end result. I guess BombFactory's responses are that of a frustrated studio owner. There is no substitute. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fantasticsound Posted August 17, 2004 Share Posted August 17, 2004 I would argue that your divisions between levels are incorrect. The amount of crossover between levels makes it impossible to differentiate one from another with one exception, the money is no object studio. The others are better divided by the work they accomplish than the gear they record/mix it on. I've seen fantastic recordings come from Roland VS gear (always compressed format) and, as you alluded to, crap from high dollar studios. There is definitely advantages to working in a high dollar studio, but it's the skill of the operator that is the greatest determining factor, given the high quality of gear at every level. Let's not forget that it wasn't long ago when most recordings were mixed on Yamaha NS-10's and Urei ??? (Huge studio speakers known for being bass heavy). The transparency we enjoy with ADAM's and the like did not exist, yet great recordings with high fidelity were possible then. Now a similar level is possible for pennies on the dollar (in equipment layout) so long as the operator knows his/her stuff. And don't forget the other great determining factor... a good (or great) acoustic space to record in. It's easiest to find me on Facebook. Neil Bergman Soundclick fntstcsnd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Cole Posted August 17, 2004 Author Share Posted August 17, 2004 fantasticsound, so, you agree that this guy was just full of himself and that rigid differentiation between the types of studios is just him patting himself on the back for all the overhead he has created for himself. I guess I kinda fell into his trap and rattled off some gear. That was the true reason behind my post, to say that gear shouldn't be poo-poo'd just because the faceplate says "ABC". It is the end result that counts. He just peeved me off. There is no substitute. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hendmik Posted August 17, 2004 Share Posted August 17, 2004 First and foremost, I like Bombfactory's products. I think they make some great, great stuff. However, I can't figure out this industry's obsession with gear. I'm guilty of it to a certain point. But I would never go as far as to claim that any art made with a graphite pencil is invalid because the artist didn't spend money on some nice oils, which is what he seems to be insinuating. Joe, I'm with you. I too have heard some awful stuff come out of large studios. L.A. studios even. When will we all figure out that it less the wand and more the witch? I have never met an industry more determined to credit their tools rather than themselves. We are all artists, we just don't want to admit it. Whenever you find that you are on the side of the majority, it is time to reform. Mark Twain (1835-1910) -------------------- Reporter: "Ah, do you think you could destroy the world?" The Tick: "Ehgad I hope not. That's where I keep all my stuff!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YourMotherShouldKnow Posted August 17, 2004 Share Posted August 17, 2004 Originally posted by Hendmik: However, I can't figure out this industry's obsession with gear.Obsessing over gear makes it easier to overlook the krappy music that's being recorded. Obsessing over sales has the same affect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fantasticsound Posted August 17, 2004 Share Posted August 17, 2004 It's hard to justify the 6 or 7 figure expense that you're having great difficulty turning a profit on when people are making great product on gear/rooms worth 1/10th that.. or less. I think, in the hands of professionals, a great singer with a great song and a great set of musicians can absolutely kill in a high line, pro studio. But the bar has been raised so high as to what is possible at smaller, less well equipped studios, that it's hard to justify the expense. This relates directly to the piano/piano samples thread. Though I have proven to be a staunch believer in real piano when available, with a decent way to record it, I readily admit there are times when the samples should win out. For convenience and cost, they do most jobs well enough. The same can be said of many smaller studios. They cannot live up to the quality of a great, high dollar studio. But they can do most of the jobs to a high enough standard of quality. Let's face it, if you have a great room, you can even record a great product with 3 microphones. But it ain't easy. Recording engineers let their gear do a LOT of what used to be done with a few mics, ears, and the gray matter between those ears. The more help we get from technology, the more techniques we need to learn, but the less work is being done by those ears and gray matter. But to answer directly, I think the studio owner you mention is frustrated that his professional gear is even being compared to a PC, a USB interface, and N-track or Cubase. If I build a supercar for $75,000 and it combines styling, power and performance, it may not beat a 911 Turbo or a Bugatti supercar, but it may come close enough to disconcert those who own the $5-750,000 factory supercars. There are differences. But be realistic. The current move is to MP3's as a delivery media. Who needs to spend a half-million dollars on a record when the result can be compared to cassettes? It's easiest to find me on Facebook. Neil Bergman Soundclick fntstcsnd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hendmik Posted August 17, 2004 Share Posted August 17, 2004 It's just sometimes I wonder. I hear songs recorded in 1930 with one mic in the middle of a square room and -15db noise floor, that's vibe knocks my socks off. I guess sometimes engineers and producers with their gear obsessions should just get out of the way. Mr. Bombfactory included. Oh crap, did I just say that? I guess my feeling is that the Mona Lisa would still be a masterpiece had it been done in crayon. Hell, maybe even more so because it would've required more work to make look as great, and my feeling is that good art always comes from a struggle. Whenever you find that you are on the side of the majority, it is time to reform. Mark Twain (1835-1910) -------------------- Reporter: "Ah, do you think you could destroy the world?" The Tick: "Ehgad I hope not. That's where I keep all my stuff!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fantasticsound Posted August 18, 2004 Share Posted August 18, 2004 Originally posted by Hendmik: It's just sometimes I wonder. I hear songs recorded in 1930 with one mic in the middle of a square room and -15db noise floor, that's vibe knocks my socks off. I guess sometimes engineers and producers with their gear obsessions should just get out of the way. Mr. Bombfactory included...Not only that. Get a copy of Belafonte at Carnegie, preferably on vinyl. Recorded with 3 mics, I believe. It's a golden ears record. It's easiest to find me on Facebook. Neil Bergman Soundclick fntstcsnd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ernest828 Posted August 18, 2004 Share Posted August 18, 2004 You know what, its really not about the gear, I know this from first hand experience. I once sat at an SSL, did a mix and you know what, it was nothing spectacular. As a matter of fact, it was bad. The song sucked, I didn`t know what the hell I was doing. So there I was sitting at a board that cost $500,000 surrounded by every piece of outboard gear I would ever want and the mix still sucked. I was inexperienced and the song sucked. The point is even if I mixed it today the song would still suck but at least the mix would have been good. Pro studio means nothing if the user is not a pro. On the other hand, give a skilled sound engineer a decent "home studio" signal path and a recorder and you`ll get very good results. Know what I`m saying? Ernest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rog Posted August 18, 2004 Share Posted August 18, 2004 "I was on ProSoundweb's forum looking up some opinions on PSP's Vintage Warmer. The owner of the Bomb Factory is a poster. He blasted PSP and any product that has the word "pro" or "tube" in it's title or has more then 3 knobs. He said that is for the Cubase/Sonar crowd." Umm ... tis t'internet. Lots of people have lots to say, much of it is bollox. With Erik, all of it is bollox. "It got me thinking... what do you associate with the home studio/ project studio/ pro/ insane gear monkey studio? Home: Sonar/Cubase/ ProTools Mbox - Sound Forge - Acid - Ozone - Sm57 - M-Audio monitors Project Studio: ProTools HD/Logic/Nuendo - Reason - WaveLab - DFH/BFD/Drumagog - UAD-1/PowerCore - Waves - AKG condenser mics - KRK or Event Monitors Pro Studio: ProTools HD - Neve/Trident board - Westlake/Adam monitors" Ahh, of course you need PT to sound pro What I don't understand is that in all those lists you never mentioned a room. You can have seriously nice gear but it can count for nothing without a decent space to record in. That's what separates the project stoodios from the high end places. "That's what the internet is for. Slandering others anonymously." - Banky Edwards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackfish Posted August 18, 2004 Share Posted August 18, 2004 What I don't understand is that in all those lists you never mentioned a room. You can have seriously nice gear but it can count for nothing without a decent space to record in. That's what separates the project stoodios from the high end places. -Amen Rog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Cole Posted August 18, 2004 Author Share Posted August 18, 2004 Originally posted by blackfish: What I don't understand is that in all those lists you never mentioned a room. ....That's what separates the project stoodios from the high end places. -Amen RogYou make a great point. There is no substitute. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkey Mouse Posted August 18, 2004 Share Posted August 18, 2004 I honestly think you can group the Home and Project Studio sections into one - many of us have home set-ups that outclass project studios without the expense or hassle. Live 6, Battery 3, Project 5, Atmosphere, Albino 2, Minimoog V, Oddity, Nord 2X, Proteus 2K ***I can't play for sh*t, but I can sequence like a muthaf*ck*r*** Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fantasticsound Posted August 18, 2004 Share Posted August 18, 2004 Originally posted by blackfish: What I don't understand is that in all those lists you never mentioned a room. You can have seriously nice gear but it can count for nothing without a decent space to record in. That's what separates the project stoodios from the high end places. -Amen Rog Originally posted by fantasticsound: And don't forget the other great determining factor... a good (or great) acoustic space to record in.I mentioned the room in the first response. It's easiest to find me on Facebook. Neil Bergman Soundclick fntstcsnd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rog Posted August 18, 2004 Share Posted August 18, 2004 Originally posted by fantasticsound: Originally posted by blackfish: What I don't understand is that in all those lists you never mentioned a room. You can have seriously nice gear but it can count for nothing without a decent space to record in. That's what separates the project stoodios from the high end places. -Amen Rog Originally posted by fantasticsound: And don't forget the other great determining factor... a good (or great) acoustic space to record in.I mentioned the room in the first response. "That's what the internet is for. Slandering others anonymously." - Banky Edwards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theblue1 Posted August 18, 2004 Share Posted August 18, 2004 Originally posted by Joe Cole: Hello guys, I was on ProSoundweb's forum looking up some opinions on PSP's Vintage Warmer. The owner of the Bomb Factory is a poster. He blasted PSP and any product that has the word "pro" or "tube" in it's title or has more then 3 knobs. He said that is for the Cubase/Sonar crowd. It got me thinking... what do you associate with the home studio/ project studio/ pro/ insane gear monkey studio? Home: Sonar/Cubase/ ProTools Mbox - Sound Forge - Acid - Ozone - Sm57 - M-Audio monitors Project Studio: ProTools HD/Logic/Nuendo - Reason - WaveLab - DFH/BFD/Drumagog - UAD-1/PowerCore - Waves - AKG condenser mics - KRK or Event Monitors Pro Studio: ProTools HD - Neve/Trident board - Westlake/Adam monitors Money is no object Studio: http://www.bombfactory.net/studio/ The part that really got to me is that these incredibly equipped studios still turn out stuff that sounds overhyped or flat. You can have a less lavishly equiped studio and to get the same end result. I guess BombFactory's responses are that of a frustrated studio owner.It's not like he came up with the notion that any product with the word "Pro" in the name probably isn't... I knew that long before I spent almost $800 on a "studio quality" Marantz cassette deck back in the 90's. It was when CD burners were still about $3000-$4000... it really ticked me off at the time to be spending that much money. The fact that the unit said "Professional" on the frontispiece really annoyed me. Guess what, even really good cassette decks still suck. They're cassette decks. Anyhow, the revolution in home recording has been good for musicians and music lovers and terrible for many studio owners. And price competition is the crux of it. It's probably understandable that the guy from Bomb Factory is pissed, since products like the PSP series often get great press and word of mouth, while he's stuck with an old-fashioned business model and declining buzz. It does bring up what ought to be (and probably is) a rule for/from those consultants who specialize in companies in crisis -- don't let your CEO vent in public internet forums (fora?) -- especially not the popular competition's. Anyhow, at the end of the day, it's the guy behind the faders (real or virtual) -- not to mention the folks in front of the mics -- who ultimately are responsible for hits and misses. Gear makers try to sell you the latest toy telling you that this new snakeoil will give you the hits that have always been eluding you. It's kind of like when the old TV Superman George Reeves (RIP, George) would do walk on spots for Cheerios, saying something like "Cheerios make me big and strong." I insisted my mom go out and buy a big box of Cheerios (the little box didn't have a picture of Superman) which she already knew I hated. I dutifully choked down a bowl and went out and tried to fly. Nothing. I figured maybe it didn't happen right away so the next day I had another bowl. Nothing. Then it occurred to me. What was the one thing Superman had that I didn't? A cape. So I had my mom make me a cape (well, a towell with an "S" appliqued on it out of contrasting material). I resolutely choked down another bowl of Cheerios, put on my cape, got up on a chair to give myself that extra little extra boost and jumped... bookmark these: news.google.com | m-w dictionary | wikipedia encyclopedia | Columbia Encyclopedia TK Major / one blue nine | myspace.com/onebluenine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Cole Posted August 18, 2004 Author Share Posted August 18, 2004 Originally posted by fantasticsound: I mentioned the room in the first response. [/QB] I guess when I read your post I was distracted by your....cat. There is no substitute. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fantasticsound Posted August 18, 2004 Share Posted August 18, 2004 Was it the cat or the awesome Les Paul he's playing?? ('Cause the LP is actually a 15+ year old Sammy, LP copy. He plays it pretty well, no? See. It is the player and not the gear! ) It's easiest to find me on Facebook. Neil Bergman Soundclick fntstcsnd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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