What is Hip?....without a horn section?

[timwat]

So this upcoming Saturday I got this one on a gig. Line up is vocalist, drums, bass, one trumpet, guitar, percussion, keys (me).

 

I've never played this tune - love it, grew up with it (as a lifelong Bay Area), but never played it.

 

Without a full horn section (just one trumpet), what would you play?

 

I was originally thinking of doubling the trumpet with B3. I'm not fond of the idea of trying to Kronos brass under the trumpet, unless you guys can convince me to consider it.

 

Other ideas?

 

What say you?

 

[BenWaB3]

I did this one some time ago in a jazz trio and did the horn lines on organ. Just eliminate the top trumpet part & fill in what's below and you should do alright, and your version would sound better than mine since there's an actual horn player doing a part. Plus with the trio I was also doing LH Bass.

[El Lobo]

Yes, play harmony under top trumpet on B3. It will sound better than fake horns and it will blend.  

[ElmerJFudd]

I guess you can cover anything.  In this case it’s a groove song, so as long as the bass-n-drums’ groove is good, it’s good. No horns or thin on horns for the lines and stabs - sure a brighter organ setting with percussion. 

[Bobadohshe]

It's a dumb idea.

 

But if I had to do it I would probably actually cop it with my horn patch. Well first I'd talk to the trumpet play and see what he/she prefers. I supplement our horn section all the time like this and it really does the trick. This is usually in a Top 40 context so I'm not trying to create art.

 

What Is Hip is a slightly different beast in that it's from a band that's ABOUT the horns. But the trumpet playing all the screaming high lead stuff might sound pretty dumb all up there by itself. Your trumpet player might welcome the support.

 

If there were zero horns, I would just do it on B3. But since there's a trumpet I'm going to supplement that sound.

[timwat]

Bobby - agreed, I wouldn't have called it, but the BL on this one has called a list that includes Rhiannon, Just Called My Baby, Lean Back and Crosseyed and Painless. All on the same gig. So What is Hip without horns is sort of...well of course he'd call that LOL

 

[KuruPrionz]

14 minutes ago, timwat said:

Bobby - agreed, I wouldn't have called it, but the BL on this one has called a list that includes Rhiannon, Just Called My Baby, Lean Back and Crosseyed and Painless. All on the same gig. So What is Hip without horns is sort of...well of course he'd call that LOL

 

Bottom line is that your audience wants a solid groove to dance and they want the chorus sung loud and clear so they can "bumble howl" along.

Everything else is us musicians sweating the small stuff. Keep it simple and groove it tight, they will love it. 

 

FWIW, I saw Tower of Power twice and they did that song. They had quite the horn section, not an easy sound to duplicate but it doesn't matter. 

[Stokely]

I would personally do the horns on organ as well.  

"Bumble Howl", adding that to my prospective band name list.

[o0Ampy0o]

"Tower of Power" should be a genericized name like Wall of Sound, Crescent wrench, Xerox, Cola, Google, Kleenex, etc.

 

Do a Tower of Power on that Tower of Power using a punchy fat brass synth patch as opposed to a sampled horn patch. You will avoid being "the substitute teacher" like using prerecorded backing track syndrome. 

 

A trumpet without other accompanying brass doing everything the whole night is pushing a rock uphill unless he is Chris Botti or Herb Albert. Doc knew how to bring it.

[JohnnyFoster]

1 hour ago, KuruPrionz said:

Bottom line is that your audience wants a solid groove to dance and they want the chorus sung loud and clear so they can "bumble howl" along.

Everything else is us musicians sweating the small stuff. Keep it simple and groove it tight, they will love it. 

 

FWIW, I saw Tower of Power twice and they did that song. They had quite the horn section, not an easy sound to duplicate but it doesn't matter. 

Funny - "What Is Hip" isn't something that people dance to... Lol.

[Baldwin Funster]

Gsi mini orchestra has a nice sounding horn section.  Very warm and fits in most places. IF you run in iOS you can stack multiples in AUM.

I'm using it in a couple 60s stax tunes. 

[KuruPrionz]

28 minutes ago, JohnnyFoster said:

Funny - "What Is Hip" isn't something that people dance to... Lol.

I wouldn't know, never played it. Everybody was standing and grooving to the whole show both times I saw Tower of Power, they had groove down.

[TommyRude]

Here's what ChatBot recommends:

 

Since you only have one trumpet and not a full horn section, you can adapt and enhance the keyboard part to compensate for the missing horns. Here are a few suggestions on what you can play on the keyboards:

1. Horn Stabs and Hits: One of the signature elements of Tower of Power's music is the punctuated horn stabs and hits. You can emulate these horn accents by playing short, sharp chords or single notes on the keyboards during the appropriate moments. Experiment with different voicings and sounds to achieve a horn-like quality.
2. Brass Section Pads: Use the keyboard to create sustained brass section pads that fill out the sound. Select a suitable brass sound or ensemble patch and play chords or sustained notes to create a rich, layered texture. This will help compensate for the absence of a full horn section and add depth to the overall arrangement.
3. Octave Runs: During sections where the horn section would typically play runs or riffs, you can play octave runs on the keyboards. Choose a suitable sound, such as an electric piano or organ, and play the melody or improvisational lines in octaves to emulate the horn lines.
4. Counterpoint Lines: In certain sections, you can create counterpoint lines that interact with the trumpet part. This will add complexity and interest to the arrangement. Experiment with playing complementary melodies or harmonies on the keyboards, weaving in and out of the trumpet's lines.
5. Solo Sections: When it comes to solo sections, you have the freedom to take extended keyboard solos. Explore improvisation and showcase your skills during these moments, creating dynamic and exciting solos that match the energy of the original horn solos.

Remember, the goal is not to replicate the exact sound of a full horn section but to enhance the overall arrangement and capture the essence of Tower of Power's music. Be creative, experiment with different sounds and techniques on the keyboards, and work closely with the rest of the band to create a compelling performance.

[JohnnyFoster]

17 minutes ago, KuruPrionz said:

I wouldn't know, never played it. Everybody was standing and grooving to the whole show both times I saw Tower of Power, they had groove down.

Makes sense ; I've played it (what feels like) a million times, and even sat in with T.O.P. a couple of times and played it with them. Great song.

[16251]

Considering two keyboards. I would have organ lower. Upper I'd split, say a Kronos, etc. with horn stab that has a slight swell and lower I would have a Bari sax. When I played horns I always had most fun when I could throw in a bari, which I always thought sounded the best considering how they mix with the band.

 

During verse I would keep organ and horns. During big horn soli, I would go all top board mixing horns with bari.

[stoken6]

2 hours ago, Bobadohshe said:

But if I had to do it I would probably actually cop it with my horn patch.

I've done this kind of thing alongside a sax player. Imho synths can fake brass better than they can fake reeds. But if you can nail the groove, the rest is detail...

 

Cheers, Mike.

[Tusker]

What is important is the groove. If your bass player and drummer can lock in tight, you are half way there.

 

B3 or sampled horns? They are BOTH good. No need to apologize. As long as you are committed and you feel it, you can sell it.

 

There are no iconic rips, doits or falls in the tune so that's a relief. The stabs are natural for your keyboard action. That leaves the swells. Some sampled horns don't do swells well without sounding synthy. Other sampled horns do it brilliantly. If you can make the band feel those swells, that will help sell the song. Good luck and let us know how it turns out.

[linwood]

This...

[Delaware Dave]

Our band plays alot of horn songs from the classic rock era and we have no horn players, I'm  expected to cover the horns.  Chicago, Ides of March, Blues Brothers, KC, about 40% of the list has horns and many have B3 and horns together so I'm pretty busy.  Occassionally we have a sax player sit in and I don't change my parts rather, he needs to find his parts. If I'm out listening to a band and they are playing TOP (brother DanL's band plays TOP but they have horn players) I'm expecting to hear horns, not B3 playing horn parts; I can do it so it can be done.  Probably not the answer you want to hear but that is my perspective.

[mate stubb]

I've only played it twice, both times when sitting in.

 

The first time I did a sub for a local band. The groove was a goner. We had a full horn section, but they were cracking clams all over the place, and not remotely playing tight. The bass player got lost coming back in from the break right before the organ solo.

 

Drummer/BL was having fits. He was yelling at the bass player trying to count him back to one. Finally he STOPPED THE SONG and starts cussing out the horns and bass player. This is a long running band mind you. I was just the sub but I knew the song better than they did. I don't take the BL's phone calls anymore. 

 

Second time I was sitting in on a weekly jam run by an old guitar playing buddy. No horns. My buddy didn't want to call the tune because he didn't know the tune well and was the lead singer. Drummer and I overruled him so off we went. I was just playing organ. We did one verse and basically jumped into solos. I played the Chester bump rhythms and big horn hits, and at the end of my solo brought the band back in for the ending playing the iconic horn licks. It was half assed but the groove was tight and it was way more fun than the other one.

[HammondDave]

THIS! CT’s solo at 3:15 is amazing. 

 

[timwat]

An interesting cover:

 

 

[o0Ampy0o]

Wow that is awesome! It is unrecognizable as What Is Hip? They could give it their own name and not have to worry about being sued for copyright infringement. They each are good and make interesting contributions but my favorite is the bass playing. They as a band are kicking arce.

[o0Ampy0o]

56 minutes ago, HammondDave said:

THIS! CT’s solo at 3:15 is amazing. 

 

 

That really has everything to come off great considering it had to play mono through a cheap television speaker. 

[TommyRude]

2 hours ago, HammondDave said:

THIS! CT’s solo at 3:15 is amazing. 

 

how about that crazy funky dancing along with the keyboard solo!

[TommyRude]

2 hours ago, timwat said:

An interesting cover:

 

 

holy crapoly!  Insane!

[Mark Zeger]

11 hours ago, mate stubb said:

Drummer/BL was having fits. He was yelling at the bass player trying to count him back to one. Finally he STOPPED THE SONG and starts cussing out the horns and bass player. This is a long running band mind you. I was just the sub but I knew the song better than they did. I don't take the BL's phone calls anymore. 

You played with Buddy Rich?!?

[DaveMcM]

18 hours ago, JohnnyFoster said:

Funny - "What Is Hip" isn't something that people dance to... Lol.

Maybe your playing for the wrong crowds.

[The Real MC]

2 hours ago, DaveMcM said:

Maybe your playing for the wrong crowds.

 

Truth.

 

Back in 2008, I went to see ToP play in Elmira NY.  Not exactly a town known for any live music.  Nonetheless, ToP packed the dining hall at the Holiday Inn and a lot of people were dancing.  I would never have guessed that this town was attracted to that kind of music.

[The Real MC]

11 hours ago, timwat said:

An interesting cover:

 

 

Funky tight band and hats off to the shamisen player who made an unorthodox instrument fit the genre...!!!