Stephen Fortner Posted May 11, 2023 Share Posted May 11, 2023 While working on the review of the NordStage 4 in GearLab, I got the idea to do audio examples of its Leslie simulation compared with some other clonewheels and keyboards I have in the studio. I’m still going to do so, but then it occurred to be that by making this a collaborative and crowdsourced effort, we could have an authoritative comparison of most Leslie/rotary simulations on the market today, both standalone pedals or effects and those that are built into keyboard instruments. (FYI my first ever involvement with Keyboard magazine was as a panelist in one of Mark Vail’s clonewheel roundups in 1997.) The idea is that I would do several based on what I currently possess, and forumites — looking at you, MPN Advisory Board members — would contribute examples from their collection as well. Workflow concept: We all use the same MIDI file, which can be fairly simple and I can provide. Since different organs and plug-ins and such use different MIDI messages to toggle fast and slow speeds, we’d agree to do switches at the same points, and either program them in or trigger them manually as the file drives an external MIDI instrument or a plug-in. The track is then recorded to stereo audio. Audio specs: - 24-bit, 48kHz in case we want to put any example in a video later. (48kHz is the standard sampling rate for picture.) - Every audio track should undergo a “normalize” operation with peaks no louder than -6dB to help avoid the “louder is better” bias. - Delivery format: 24/48 WAV file. The results would be posted to their own GearLab thread, and updated as new products or firmware updates are released. Deliverables: Each product would involve six separate audio examples, corresponding to three drawbar registrations: - Jazz organ: 888 with third harmonic percussion set to soft and fast - Full drawbars - “Erroll Garner”: 80 000 8888 - Two files per registration: One with no vibrato/chorus, the other with C3 chorus My rationale here is that the acid test of a Leslie simulation is higher frequencies at fast speed. The treble is of course more directional, so if a sim has any cheap-sounding panning or throbbing characteristics, they’ll especially show themselves with the Garner. As for the vibrato chorus, sims often sound deeper and better with chorus applied, so it’s important to see how they do with and without it. Now, onto the products. What I have (note that I could record all these but it will go faster if I don’t Hardware: Hammond SK-X and older XK-3C system Nord Stage 4 Studiologic Numa Organ (first-gen) Roland VR organ model inside Fantom 7 Kurzweil Forte7 KB3 mode Kurzweil K-2661 KB3 mode with K-Sounds patches from Keven Spargo Software: Arturia B-3 V “Vintage B3 Organ” (formerly EV-B3) with Logic Pro What I don’t have and would like to see in the roundup: Hardware: Hammond XK5, XK4, and/or SK-X Pro Nord Stage 3, C2D, and/or current/recent Electro Crumar Mojo Viscount Legend (any model) Current Roland V-Combo MAG Neo Instruments Ventilator II Software: IK Multimedia Hammond B-3X Of course, I’m open to suggestions for anything I’ve missed. This looks like a pretty good buffet of what a player might choose from currently, and the roundup could grow to include legacy products. So, the only question left is: Who’s in? 3 Quote Stephen Fortner Principal, Fortner Media Former Editor in Chief, Keyboard Magazine Digital Piano Consultant, Piano Buyer Magazine Industry affiliations: Antares, Arturia, Giles Communications, MS Media, Polyverse Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Real MC Posted May 11, 2023 Share Posted May 11, 2023 Dynacord CLS-222. Happy owner of one since 1989. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baldwin Funster Posted May 11, 2023 Share Posted May 11, 2023 The boss rt20 isn't loved but I believe it's very close to rolands VK88 leslie. The Lex company has a rotary pedal. Hammond has a leslie pedal. EHX has 2. None of these are in the running for newest best but you did say currently for sale pedals. Quote FunMachine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnH Posted May 11, 2023 Share Posted May 11, 2023 You left out the Yamaha YC61/73/88 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allan_evett Posted May 11, 2023 Share Posted May 11, 2023 I'll jump in, and offer a piece of hardware not yet considered: Roland VTW model, via Fantom 7. Oops. Just saw that you have the VR model via Fantom already listed. Quote 'Someday, we'll look back on these days and laugh; likely a maniacal laugh from our padded cells, but a laugh nonetheless' - Mr. Boffo. We need a barfing cat emoticon! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D. Gauss Posted May 11, 2023 Share Posted May 11, 2023 missing this one: and this one: 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoundswellKeys Posted May 11, 2023 Share Posted May 11, 2023 Mvintage Rotary from Melda productions is my favorite software Leslie. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ABECK Posted May 11, 2023 Share Posted May 11, 2023 How about a hybrid option, like the Leslie 2101 Mk2? While it is a real rotating upper baffle, the lower is simulated. I've heard some impressive demos, but this one doesn't seem to get too much attention. Would love to hear how it stacks up against the other portable options. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PianoMan51 Posted May 11, 2023 Share Posted May 11, 2023 Can I suggest a mono recording be created for those sims that have that ability. Many of us are concerned with live sound and stereo is not always possible. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stokely Posted May 11, 2023 Share Posted May 11, 2023 Good point. So far I've been pretty pleased with mono compatibility with organs. Piano, not so much. My old Kurzweil pc3 was probably the worst in that regard but it also wasn't as good to begin with as later ones I've used. Roland vr700, electro 6, sk pro, a Lester K (bought to help the Kurzweil) and B-3X have all sounded good in mono. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonglow Posted May 11, 2023 Share Posted May 11, 2023 I used one of these for several years. Quote "We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing." - George Bernard Shaw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dazzjazz Posted May 11, 2023 Share Posted May 11, 2023 I could provide the MAG example, although mine has a mini-vent installed. 1 Quote www.dazzjazz.com PhD in Jazz Organ Improvisation. BMus (Hons) Jazz Piano. my YouTube is Jazz Organ Bites 1961 A100.Leslie 45 & 122. MAG P-2 Organ. Kawai K300J. Yamaha CP4. Moog Matriarch. KIWI-8P. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delaware Dave Posted May 11, 2023 Share Posted May 11, 2023 2 hours ago, Moonglow said: I used one of these for several years. I've been looking to purchase one of those ... Quote 57 Hammond B3; 69 Hammond L100P; 68 Leslie 122; Kurzweil Forte7 & PC3; M-Audio Code 61; Voce V5+; Neo Vent; EV ELX112P; GSI Gemini & Burn Delaware Dave Exit93band Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen Fortner Posted May 12, 2023 Author Share Posted May 12, 2023 Great suggestions all around! Real MC, I would love to hear how the CLS stacks up against modern digital sims. I expect it would hold its own favorably. 1 Quote Stephen Fortner Principal, Fortner Media Former Editor in Chief, Keyboard Magazine Digital Piano Consultant, Piano Buyer Magazine Industry affiliations: Antares, Arturia, Giles Communications, MS Media, Polyverse Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elif Posted May 12, 2023 Share Posted May 12, 2023 Will each recording be a 2-channel recording of the analog outputs of a simulation? How are they to be compared: headphones, monitors in a listening room? It is entirely possible that a simulation was designed for a certain reproduction technique, e.g., headphones, two spaced speakers, two coincident speakers with a relative angular relationshp. What will be the audio source for the the hardware simulators? Will a standard audio track or tracks be provided? Will these recordings be with or without overdrive? Will the judgement be on how they sound for live reproduction or for recording purposes? Normalizing the recordings to -6 dB peak is a good idea. I'd also suggest that these be required to use no compression, limiting or EQ. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baldwin Funster Posted May 12, 2023 Share Posted May 12, 2023 It would be interesting if at least one ringer was put in the group re: a real 122. Then as you judge the tracks there is always the chance that you are hearing a real leslie. Yeah I'm a troublemaker. 1 Quote FunMachine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Analogaddict Posted May 12, 2023 Share Posted May 12, 2023 I can do the following; Hammond XK5 Yamaha YC61 Crumar Mojo HX3 module (The Mojo is at a friends place right now) I’ve also got a Leslie 2101 mk2 and a Tornado Rotary speaker. And a LOT of work to do. What’s the deadline..? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UnderGroundGr Posted May 12, 2023 Share Posted May 12, 2023 I have Lex Strymon(the second version). Excellent leslie simulator! Quote Kurzweil K2661 + full options,iMac 27",Mac book white,Apogee Element 24 + Duet,Genelec 8030A,Strymon Lex + Flint,Hohner Pianet T,Radial Key-Largo,Kawai K5000W,Moog Minitaur,Yamaha Reface YC + CP, iPad 9th Gen, Arturia Beatstep + V Collection 9 https://antonisadelfidis.bandcamp.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonglow Posted May 12, 2023 Share Posted May 12, 2023 15 hours ago, Delaware Dave said: I've been looking to purchase one of those ... …sold mine to brother tonysounds. Quote "We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing." - George Bernard Shaw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KuruPrionz Posted May 12, 2023 Share Posted May 12, 2023 11 hours ago, Jr. Deluxe said: It would be interesting if at least one ringer was put in the group re: a real 122. Then as you judge the tracks there is always the chance that you are hearing a real leslie. Yeah I'm a troublemaker. Lots of different sounds from a recording of a real Leslie. I'm not against your idea, I think it's good. Which organ set which way, which mics, which positions for the mics, which room all make a notable difference in. how a real Leslie will sound. And then there's guitars... Quote It took a chunk of my life to get here and I am still not sure where "here" is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delaware Dave Posted May 12, 2023 Share Posted May 12, 2023 20 hours ago, Jr. Deluxe said: It would be interesting if at least one ringer was put in the group re: a real 122. Then as you judge the tracks there is always the chance that you are hearing a real leslie. Yeah I'm a troublemaker. This is a great idea because what simulators are suppose to do is reproduce a real leslie. Having the real leslie in the mix is the gold standard, so we should know which one is the real leslie then understand which sim sounds closest to reproducing that sound. What you might like to hear in a leslie might not be what a true leslie sounds like. To me, I want to know which sim sounds closest to the real deal, so we should know which one is the real deal and then compare which leslie sim comes closest to that sound. As an example, I find that the Vent can be overbearing in the AM dept as compared to a real leslie, I dont get that kind of AM out of my 122 from the bass rotor. I find the Gemini Burn to be closer to the real AM sound than the Vent. 2 Quote 57 Hammond B3; 69 Hammond L100P; 68 Leslie 122; Kurzweil Forte7 & PC3; M-Audio Code 61; Voce V5+; Neo Vent; EV ELX112P; GSI Gemini & Burn Delaware Dave Exit93band Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D. Gauss Posted May 12, 2023 Share Posted May 12, 2023 if you're gonna toss in a real leslie, lest you open a large variable can of phase/pan/level worms, i'd suggest recording it Stax Records style. i.e. in mono, with one mic, a couple feet back. (shure sm-57 works just fine). If it was good enough for sam & dave... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ksoper Posted May 12, 2023 Share Posted May 12, 2023 Any interest in a KBR-3D? Quote 9 Moog things, 3 Roland things, 2 Hammond things and a computer with stuff on it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Outkaster Posted May 13, 2023 Share Posted May 13, 2023 How about a real 145. I have a couple at home that are killer. 1 Quote "Danny, ci manchi a tutti. La E-Street Band non e' la stessa senza di te. Riposa in pace, fratello" noblevibes.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen Fortner Posted May 13, 2023 Author Share Posted May 13, 2023 I’m liking the idea about putting real Leslies in the roundup as a reference. I mean for everything to be labeled and identified, but maybe we could have a “blind” post or adjunct thread where people try to guess which audio examples are the real deal. Heck, maybe the first person to guess it correctly wins a prize if we could team up with somebody for a giveaway. Thinking 🤔 ... 1 Quote Stephen Fortner Principal, Fortner Media Former Editor in Chief, Keyboard Magazine Digital Piano Consultant, Piano Buyer Magazine Industry affiliations: Antares, Arturia, Giles Communications, MS Media, Polyverse Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Williams Posted May 13, 2023 Share Posted May 13, 2023 I've got a couple of Kurzweils with the BillW single Leslie program that I can record, if that's desired. Presumably you could plug anything into the inputs of a PC4 and run it through that Leslie. Quote -Tom Williams {First Name} {at} AirNetworking {dot} com PC4-7, PX-5S, AX-Edge, PC361 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delaware Dave Posted May 13, 2023 Share Posted May 13, 2023 1 hour ago, Stephen Fortner said: I’m liking the idea about putting real Leslies in the roundup as a reference. I mean for everything to be labeled and identified, but maybe we could have a “blind” post or adjunct thread where people try to guess which audio examples are the real deal. Heck, maybe the fiould be rst person to guess it correctly wins a prize if we could team up with somebody for a giveaway. Thinking 🤔 ... It would be interesting to add a few real leslies like a 3300, 2101, the Tornado 115 and 315 to understand how the 'sims' compare to those. what would it tell you if the winner were a Lester K and the Leslie 3300 came in 6th place? Quote 57 Hammond B3; 69 Hammond L100P; 68 Leslie 122; Kurzweil Forte7 & PC3; M-Audio Code 61; Voce V5+; Neo Vent; EV ELX112P; GSI Gemini & Burn Delaware Dave Exit93band Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bjosko Posted May 13, 2023 Share Posted May 13, 2023 Leslie stop ? 🤔 1 3 2 Quote /Bjørn - old gearjunkie, still with lot of GAS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Real MC Posted May 14, 2023 Share Posted May 14, 2023 On 5/11/2023 at 8:31 PM, Stephen Fortner said: Great suggestions all around! Real MC, I would love to hear how the CLS stacks up against modern digital sims. I expect it would hold its own favorably. I'm in... send the MIDI file. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KRK Posted July 31, 2023 Share Posted July 31, 2023 ciao! just for comparison... (already linked in other discussion)here my updated playlist with Leslie Simulations (Lex V.2, Ventilator, Burn, Lester K, Leslie pedal, IK Multimedia, MS R3-147, etc. etc.) with real hammond and/or clonewheels... hope this could be useful 🍻 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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