Yamaha Montage successor incoming

[Jose EB5AGV]

10 minutes ago, Chummy said:

 

Nope, I actually owned Montage for 2 years. and I disabled the blur, screen animation and even the click sound - everything to make it more smooth.

Yet it's not - mine was updated to the latest version then - V3.0 . So now you can say that many times when you saw this complaint, it's because somebody didn't turn off the eye candy but not this time^

 

I'd seen tablets and phones from earlier gens react better... you know it only when you own one.

 

The problem is the resistive touch screen. It is lots worse, precission wise, than the usual capacitive touch screens on mobile phones and tablets. I also struggled with my first Montage 6 B and thought it was a matter of being a three years old used unit. But then I got my barely used Montage 6 W and it was almost the same. You need to get used to it, I have managed to use it lots better that at the beginning, but still double clicks happen from time to time.

 

Jose

[Stokely]

I consider a touch screen somewhat of a negative overall.  Mainly, I'm worried something will break with it.  There's nothing I particularly do faster or better with a touchscreen other than being able to type patch names in   In fact, the size of the icons require me to find my glasses, whereas dedicated buttons I can do mostly by feel    And at a live gig I've hit the wrong thing more than once on a touchscreen.

What *would* be kind of cool would be an ipad/tablet app that could control the keyboard (optionally) just like the built-in one.  Like some digital mixers have (QSC touchmix for example).  It could be a lot larger and as mentioned, probably perform better.   One benefit of this would be not having to leave so much space between keyboards so that you can see the lower keyboard's screens

[HammondDave]

With the sounds already being incredibly accurate,  the next step is introducing AI into the user interface. ChatGPT technology could be incorporated so the musician can say “I want the mallet synth sound that Toto used in Africa”. And without touching a button or dial, the UI immediately gives you that sound. If you want it a little brighter, or with some delay, just ask for it. Then you say “Save this performance for the second song of set 1 and name it ‘Africa”!

 

You could also ask for “a string quartet mixed with harpsichord and split it at C4”

 

THAT would be a “game-changer”.  

[Mighty Motif Max]

40 minutes ago, HammondDave said:

With the sounds already being incredibly accurate,  the next step is introducing AI into the user interface. ChatGPT technology could be incorporated so the musician can say “I want the mallet synth sound that Toto used in Africa”. And without touching a button or dial, the UI immediately gives you that sound. If you want it a little brighter, or with some delay, just ask for it. Then you say “Save this performance for the second song of set 1 and name it ‘Africa”!

 

You could also ask for “a string quartet mixed with harpsichord and split it at C4”

 

THAT would be a “game-changer”.  

Yeah but what if you want to cover a live version?

[HammondDave]

22 minutes ago, Mighty Motif Max said:

Yeah but what if you want to cover a live version?

easy!  Just say: “Give me the synth sound from Toto’s 2003 Greek Theatre performance of Africa”.  If it’s recorded, it would be in the AI’s library. 
 

 ChatGPT can already compose songs “in the style” of composers and performers.  Try it. Pretty Amazing technology… and a little scary too.  
 

I would be surprised if Yamaha is not working on this now. 

[Mighty Motif Max]

5 minutes ago, HammondDave said:

easy!  Just say: “Give me the synth sound from Toto’s 2003 Greek Theatre performance of Africa”.  If it’s recorded, it would be in the AI’s library. 

True...although that assumes there's a high-quality recording available. I'd be very impressed if it could parse out the synth sound from a low-quality YouTube video with sufficient accuracy - now THAT would be a game changer indeed because it could help when there aren't good isolated tracks available or a good recording for a human to listen to and program a patch well.

[Stokely]

If you mentioned to him you didn't care for the light action (not sure if that was an aside for us, or something you said to him) then it strikes me as a last-ditch attempt to get you to buy.  Perhaps I'm wrong and so being uncharitable,  but it sounds exactly like something somebody would say to rescue a sale.  

Flip side, I've never been interested in the M8 due to weight (Fantom 8 is what I'd really like but that's just as heavy) and so he could be right.

Not only are both those keyboards (Montage and Fantom 8s) heavy, they are humongous.  I'm not sure exactly why they have to be so huge but that's just as much of an issue as the weight for me.

I like the CFX on my modx7 as long as we can go stereo.  It suffers more than most when you go mono IMO.  AnotherScott mentioned there is at least one other that fares better (s700 or s6, I can't recall right now) but I don't like it quite as much overall.  CFX is quite bright but that works well for my needs in a live rock band.

[ProfD]

11 minutes ago, Stokely said:

Not only are both those keyboards (Montage and Fantom 8s) heavy, they are humongous.  I'm not sure exactly why they have to be so huge but that's just as much of an issue as the weight for me.

It's all relative.  The weight of these *newer* KBs is negligible to those of us who schlep a Rhodes.😎

[JohnH]

1 hour ago, Dave Ferris said:

 I

 

 

Anyway he proceeds to tell me that the Montage 8's action has been updated and/or made heavier in recent years. Now I'm not up on a lot of updates, I might've missed it, but that's the first I've ever heard of that. I pressed him on it asking specifically, when did this heavier action come about ? He replied, about two years ago. I said, interesting and thanks for the info. I didn't say anything to him but in reality I'm having my doubts.

 

He gave me a great price on it, along with the Montage 6 and CP88. Sure I'd love the Full Monty Montage at home for messing around on but it's not a priority. The two keyboards are more practical.

 

But I have to ask, has anyone heard of this update or a tweaking of the Montage 8 action ? I'm more curious then anything.

No there's not an update. Same Balanced Hammer on Montage since 2016.  The only time they update anything is when they make another model and completely move on from a keybed. But this same Balanced Hammer was on all the Motifs and S90's. No BHE is any heavier or lighter than another. Identical.  https://usa.yamaha.com/products/music_production/synthesizers/montage/specs.html

[DeltaJockey]

2 hours ago, Dave Ferris said:

 I'm nosing around for prices and availability and called a music store back East that I've dealt with many times in the past. The fellow I use to work with, that gave the best prices around, retired a few years back. They are totally legit Yamaha, Korg, Roland, etc., etc. dealers. My guy used to be able to get literally anything, except for certain Pro Audio products.

 

So I'm talking with the owner's son who took over for my past guy, very nice young kid, he's really trying to be helpful...but man he's scattered  x 10. Maybe too much Red Bull or whatever...lol

 

I'm looking at ordering a CP88 and a Montage 6. He proceeds to tell me that the Montage 8 would be a better choice over the CP88.

I said no, first off I'm still gigging a tad and at almost age 70, the weight of the Montage 8 at 64 lbs. is insane, WAY out of the question. I'm trying to shave off 8 lbs. from the P-515 as it is. Plus the Montage 8 action feels much lighter and is less of an overall less substantial piano playing board then the CP88. Also I preferred the CP88 CFX (not to mention the Hamburg) piano sample to what I've heard in the Montage.

 

The M8 has the "balanced action" while the CP88 sports the "natural wood graded hammer action". Now technically I don't know the pecking order of Yamaha action names, I've always gone on feel. I know my P-515 is another entirely different grade of action then both of those. It's been sometime since I played the M8 in a store but I distinctly remember it being lighter then the CP88, I'd bet my Steinway on that.

 

Anyway he proceeds to tell me that the Montage 8's action has been updated and/or made heavier in recent years. Now I'm not up on a lot of updates, I might've missed it, but that's the first I've ever heard of that. I pressed him on it asking specifically, when did this heavier action come about ? He replied, about two years ago. I said, interesting and thanks for the info. I didn't say anything to him but in reality I'm having my doubts.

 

He gave me a great price on it, along with the Montage 6 and CP88. Sure I'd love the Full Monty Montage at home for messing around on but it's not a priority. The two keyboards are more practical.

 

But I have to ask, has anyone heard of this update or a tweaking of the Montage 8 action ? I'm more curious then anything.

My 2 cents worth on the M8 BHE...... My experience is that the perceived weighting probably depends on how you play it. Like many keybeds, there seems to me a marked difference in static force and dynamic force. I've been ambivalent about it, because when I push a few keys slowly and compare with my other keybeds, it feels quite light. But I tend to play 7 to 10 finger arpeggios a lot, very quickly, and the dynamic force is quite significant to my fingers. This can strain them quite quickly. (It's why I currently love my Numa X GT.)

It feels a bit like moving your hand through Non Newtonian fluid, but much subtler. As my hands age, I'm less tolerant of these dynamic forces for any length of time. If you compare the BHE to the older Fatars, and Fatar equiped Nords, it's dynamic force is less IMO, but is still noticeable for me compared to my Numa X GT, or Kawai MP7SE etc.

 

The balanced weighting has never been a problem for me, even as a piano player, after a few minutes of playing you don't even notice it. I wonder whether people who say they wouldn't like it, just reject it as a ideological reason.

 

ps. I've also not been a fan of the Montage pianos. Even the Bosendorfer has a certain "bright thinness", like it's been processed for rock piano use. Considering its main use I wouldn't be surprised.  I used sample robot at one stage to capture a nice Steinway B, and loaded into the user memory, which I much prefer.

[jazzpiano88]

I would never buy a Montage 61 as a pianist, unless I suddenly wanted to not be a pianist.

 

With 99.999999999% of other boards, yes, you could use a different 73key or 88 key controller (Yamaha P515) and treat your 61 key board as a sound source as if it were in a midi rack. 

 

But the Montage is 'different' and won't work in this fashion. It is not architected to be controlled.  It is architected to be a controller and input to DAW.  

 

None of its patches can be played by a controller unless that controller transmits all of the Montage parts independently on the different MIDI channels simultaneously -- A nightmare to set up, but remarkably it's an unserved market opportunity for someone to create a  "Montage  Library" for controller X and an SDK to easily adapt to new Montage Patches.  

 

The outrage of Montage users upon realizing this limitation almost drove Yamaha's Bad Mister over the edge, and he's never really been the same.

 

I would do it, but I'm too busy on my other startup.  Theo?

[DeltaJockey]

1 hour ago, JazzPiano88 said:

I would never buy a Montage 61 as a pianist, unless I suddenly wanted to not be a pianist.

 

With 99.999999999% of other boards, yes, you could use a different 73key or 88 key controller (Yamaha P515) and treat your 61 key board as a sound source as if it were in a midi rack. 

 

But the Montage is 'different' and won't work in this fashion. It is not architected to be controlled.  It is architected to be a controller and input to DAW.  

 

None of its patches can be played by a controller unless that controller transmits all of the Montage parts independently on the different MIDI channels simultaneously -- A nightmare to set up, but remarkably it's an unserved market opportunity for someone to create a  "Montage  Library" for controller X and an SDK to easily adapt to new Montage Patches.  

 

The outrage of Montage users upon realizing this limitation almost drove Yamaha's Bad Mister over the edge, and he's never really been the same.

 

I would do it, but I'm too busy on my other startup.  Theo?

I'm not a Montage guru by any stretch, or maybe I'm misinterpreting what you are saying but, I play my M8 from my other keys, and the multipart programs sound exactly as if playing directly from the M8 keyboard. I just make sure I have the Midi setting on Single, not Multi, so that the different Montage parts respond to the same midi channel. If I want to control each channel separately from my DAW, I set it to Multi.

My comment seems like a MIDI 101 comment, and too obvious to miss, so I must not be fully understanding what you are saying?

 

I sometimes enjoy playing some of the Montage slide guitars and others programs from my MP11SE, and they have multiple parts, all of which sound.

[jazzpiano88]

6 hours ago, DeltaJockey said:

I'm not a Montage guru by any stretch, or maybe I'm misinterpreting what you are saying but, I play my M8 from my other keys, and the multipart programs sound exactly as if playing directly from the M8 keyboard. I just make sure I have the Midi setting on Single, not Multi, so that the different Montage parts respond to the same midi channel. If I want to control each channel separately from my DAW, I set it to Multi.

My comment seems like a MIDI 101 comment, and too obvious to miss, so I must not be fully understanding what you are saying?

 

I sometimes enjoy playing some of the Montage slide guitars and others programs from my MP11SE, and they have multiple parts, all of which sound.

I didn’t realize that Montage added that mode (looks like it was added in one of the early OS updates)  That sounds like a good workaround for the issue I described.  I’m not sure if there are any unwanted side effects but it sounds great.   Thanks!!

[AnotherScott]

16 hours ago, JohnH said:

The only time they update anything is when they make another model and completely move on from a keybed. But this same Balanced Hammer was on all the Motifs and S90's. No BHE is any heavier or lighter than another. Identical. 

I can't speak to the BHE, but it is not true that every Yamaha action with the same name must be identical. Yamaha GHS used to have glossy black keys, and then they made them with matte black keys. (And as has been discussed here before, for whatever reason, GHS actually seems to feel different on some boards than on others.) When the MODX6 came out, there was discussion about whether the keys were any different from those of its MOXF6 predecessor... Yamaha has no particular acronym for these actions, but they are described similarly on the spec pages...  and if you look at the spare parts list (e.g. syntaur), you'll find that the keys are indeed identical... and yet they do feel different. I believe it turned out that the throw distance is shorter on the MODX. So even the "same" action can be implemented in different ways, such that it feels different, in context of other aspects of the assembly. So while it may be that all BHE actions are identical, and may even have completely interchangeable parts between models (I haven't checked), it's not impossible that other aspects of the design could make it feel different on one model than another. So I would not assume that an S90 and Montage 8 feel identical, merely by seeing the BHE nomenclature.

 

4 hours ago, JazzPiano88 said:

I didn’t realize that Montage added that mode (looks like it was added in one of the early OS updates)  That sounds like a good workaround for the issue I described.  I’m not sure if there are any unwanted side effects but it sounds great.   Thanks!!

Yeah, that mode was added pretty early on, in OS 1.10, and then they added yet another "hybrid" mode later. The main thing you still can't do is split/layer multiple parts on the internal keys while splitting/layering a different set of multiple parts to be triggered by external keys. That still requires that your external controller be capable of transmitting on multiple zones.

[Bobadohshe]

17 hours ago, DeltaJockey said:

ps. I've also not been a fan of the Montage pianos. Even the Bosendorfer has a certain "bright thinness", like it's been processed for rock piano use. Considering its main use I wouldn't be surprised.

 

Well said I agree.

[kpl1228]

On 5/4/2023 at 6:23 AM, Jose EB5AGV said:

 

The problem is the resistive touch screen. It is lots worse, precission wise, than the usual capacitive touch screens on mobile phones and tablets. I also struggled with my first Montage 6 B and thought it was a matter of being a three years old used unit. But then I got my barely used Montage 6 W and it was almost the same. You need to get used to it, I have managed to use it lots better that at the beginning, but still double clicks happen from time to time.

 

Jose

Does the Montage also offer incremental up/down yes/no physical buttons as well, or are you stuck with a touch screen for program select, etc?

[Jose EB5AGV]

1 hour ago, kpl1228 said:

Does the Montage also offer incremental up/down yes/no physical buttons as well, or are you stuck with a touch screen for program select, etc?

 

Yes, you can do everything (or most things, perhaps I missed something) from physical keys and dial

 

Jose

[Fleer]

Dang, I wish they’d hurry up and release that successor. 

[Fleer]

Finally. 
October it is. 
Dang, can’t wait. 

[Fleer]

 

[K K]

Official Yamaha words :

Today we are discontinuing the MONTAGE music synthesizer. As much as we would have liked to, we cannot develop the current MONTAGE any further. And one more thing…the next generation MONTAGE synthesizer is coming in October.

OK, so they cannot develop the thing further anymore. But they will release a new one with the same name in a few months. It strangely sounds like the Nautilus after the Kronos. New model, without new development.

 

   

[Docbop]

52 minutes ago, K K said:

Official Yamaha words :

Today we are discontinuing the MONTAGE music synthesizer. As much as we would have liked to, we cannot develop the current MONTAGE any further. And one more thing…the next generation MONTAGE synthesizer is coming in October.

OK, so they cannot develop the thing further anymore. But they will release a new one with the same name in a few months. It strangely sounds like the Nautilus after the Kronos. New model, without new development.

 

   

I imagine since the MoDX and Montage are almost identical internally that Yamaha will move the Montage board into the MoDX to extended it's life.  Call MoDX+++++  Then some totally internal boards to hold them for ten years.  Make the new Monty work seamlessly with CuBase.Who needs a workstation when your keyboard and DAW are joined at the hip. 

[Chummy]

On 5/4/2023 at 4:52 PM, HammondDave said:

With the sounds already being incredibly accurate,  the next step is introducing AI into the user interface. ChatGPT technology could be incorporated so the musician can say “I want the mallet synth sound that Toto used in Africa”. And without touching a button or dial, the UI immediately gives you that sound. If you want it a little brighter, or with some delay, just ask for it. Then you say “Save this performance for the second song of set 1 and name it ‘Africa”!

 

You could also ask for “a string quartet mixed with harpsichord and split it at C4”

 

THAT would be a “game-changer”.  

 

Not even joking, this is an AMAZING idea that would solve the awful touch screen problem.. Actually, you can eliminate the screen altogether just call up and edit everything by voice . All that's left are a few buttons for live use...

[Nathanael_I]

There won't be ChatGPT without a major architectural and cost overhaul.  AI uses graphics cards to scale.  The very latest and best desktop CPUs have small AI accelerators on them to help.  You want a beefy graphics card if you run ChatGPT locally.  To access it in the cloud, you need a network stack and internet.  How to get that?  The phone in your pocket.  But is a major manufacturer of traditionally stand-alone devices going to make a keyboard that depends on a cell-phone with internet access for a main feature?

 

It's probably technically completely realistic and reasonable. But many who buy these kinds of keyboards here are buying them so they DON'T deal with computers or internet.  Those of us on laptop rigs would shrug anyway and keep using better synths, samples, etc than they'll ever put in a board meant to appeal to people who used a Motif 20 years ago.  The reuse of very marginal samples is great for the bean counters, but for sound quality, I don't get it. As for sequencers, why use an onboard one when Ablelton exists or the Elektron boxes?  This is what new music is doing.  Even with the miss on multi-timbral control, I think Yamaha was right to ditch the sequencer. 

 

The performance keyboards (Nord, Yamaha) that focus on keys sounds natively, but then have easy computer connection are just winners.  The two things I need in a physical device are feel and real-time control.  Editing/tweaking/programming is all better on a computer with a nice screen.   

 

I thought the Montage was amazing when released.  I loved the FM synth integration as an idea for fresh sounds.  The SuperKnob was very well thought out.  Macro controls are where it's at - the C15 from Non-Linear Labs sorted this even better.  But, I watched some videos and knew I'd never buy it.  That kind of UI on a little crappy screen just held no interest.  It's all the complexity of a computer rig, but with few of the benefits.  I'm very tech savvy, but was just not interested in sorting out the zillions of layers, routing, control, etc. inside it's shell.  The early multi-timbral control issues completely killed it for me, though they were fixed eventually.

[AnotherScott]

4 hours ago, Nathanael_I said:

But is a major manufacturer of traditionally stand-alone devices going to make a keyboard that depends on a cell-phone with internet access for a main feature?

 

As long as that "main feature" is something you'd do at home and not at a gig, depending on someone having other gear of some sort and/or internet access is not  unprecedented. It can have other implications, though, which I think are worth considering, e.g.:

 

... Nord's big feature of a swappable sound library depends on your having a Mac/PC and internet access. And I think it could be a complication today, in that when they started down this road in earnest in 2009, Macs/PCs were ubiquitous, but today, there is a new generation of folks growing up who rely on smartphones or iPads for their internet access, and don't even have a "traditional" computer, and so there may be a younger group of players for whom this feature is not very accessible.

 

... Roland provides no way to edit the VR09/VR730 synth sounds except via an iPad editor. But how much confidence can we really have that this editor will still be able to be run, say, 5 years from now? Changes to iOS have often disrupted the operation of earlier apps. Apple provides effectively no way to roll back an OS upgrade, nor any assurance you'll be able to run an app you "own" in perpetuity, and Roland may well discontinue updating the app once the keyboard is out of production. Similarly, their AX-Edge editor requires a smartphone.

 

 

There remains an advantage to "stand-alone" devices remaining "stand-alone." Assuming it hasn't physically failed, your DX7 from 1983 is as functional today as it was then. I wonder about how functional some of today's gear will be 40 years from now. Not that I'm likely to be around to see it! But I think that anything that really depends on today's cloud technology or cell service, for example, can't be counted on for really long term usability, because internet and mobile tech changes so fast, it's almost perpetually ephemeral. I mean, see what happens if you try to use a 10 year old web browser today. Or try to use your 10 year old iPhone 5 smartphone... not only is it useless on the net, you can't even use it to make calls anymore!

[ProfD]

2 hours ago, AnotherScott said:

There remains an advantage to "stand-alone" devices remaining "stand-alone." Assuming it hasn't physically failed, your DX7 from 1983 is as functional today as it was then. I wonder about how functional some of today's gear will be 40 years from now.

IMO, a true standalone device as long as it's functioning properly will always have some type of ROM that allows for plug and play.  Anything else computer-related on that device is optional.  IOW, the device works just fine without it.

 

Otherwise, planned obsolescence has been built into products over the past few decades.

 

Manufacturers want their customers to upgrade every 3-5 years. 

 

None of our consumables is intended to be an heirloom.😁😎

 

 

[AnotherScott]

26 minutes ago, ProfD said:

IMO, a true standalone device as long as it's functioning properly will always have some type of ROM that allows for plug and play.  Anything else computer-related on that device is optional.  IOW, the device works just fine without it.

Yes. So getting back to Nathanael's comment, it kind of comes down to what a given user considers to be a "main feature." Or to use my examples, to some people, the VR09's editable synth or the Nord's replaceable sounds are main features, while for other users, they are "extras" and are not essential to their primary use of the board. So one player could consider these to be perfectly usable as fully stand-alone boards, while others might say that, absent their outside connectivity, they are significantly crippled.

[Emmanuel1]

I really love the yamaha montage but i would love the yamaha montage successor screen be like that of the Genos, make the splitting and layering of sounds easier and quicker like that of the Genos and arrange all the sound categories like that of the CK-88