Yamaha Montage successor incoming

[CyberGene]

9 minutes ago, Alkeys said:

The rounded chassis looks like it should say Tupperware on the outside of it. Same with the MODX.  C'mon Yamaha give us some metal and some angles again like on the Motif.

I'm not sure if you mean the same thing but when I had a MODX, due to its rounded cross section (hence a lack of rectangular lower lip) it couldn't be used as a tilted upper keyboard because it would slide towards me and fall and I hated it immensely for that reason. 

[jeffincltnc]

31 minutes ago, Alkeys said:

Montage was a pretty ridiculous name as well.

The word “Montage” makes me think of “Rocky IV” or “Baywatch” editing.

[ludo]

56 minutes ago, CyberGene said:

I'm not sure if you mean the same thing but when I had a MODX, due to its rounded cross section (hence a lack of rectangular lower lip) it couldn't be used as a tilted upper keyboard because it would slide towards me and fall and I hated it immensely for that reason. 

The exact reason i returned mine after 1 hour of use...

[Bobadohshe]

Garf has my old rig. His Motif to Montage comparison is pretty silly but who am I to question Garf. The Montage has every Motif waveform in it and you can directly port your patches. But you get so much more.

 

Wish I could have seen it. I got to play with Ferrone 2 years ago and it's on my bucket list to do it again. One of my all time faves.

[Cabo]

Seems a little high at $ 2,750.  Reverb mint ones seem to regularly sell for 300-500 less.   I'd offer him $2,500. 

[JohnH]

Hi Dave, Sweetwater is correct. No warranty . It's on the Yamaha warranty document also.

 

"This warranty covers only the Original Owner and is not transferable."

 

 https://usa.yamaha.com/files/WARRANTY_Synthesizer_Stage_Keyboard_Stage_Piano_Products_2021_da90a6f3dd6bc3a7ae6406bf7b8052fe.pdf

[HammondDave]

That’s insane. Spend $1500 on a new MODX7+.  The keyboard is not that bad. I perform over 50% of my parts on it. 

[Fleer]

Just wait for SuperBooth in two weeks. You never know. 

[RABid]

What ever the Montage replacement is, I hope they cut back on the amount of reverb that drowned most every patch. There was not a patch that I would play on stage without editing the effects back about 5 notches.

[ElmerJFudd]

28 minutes ago, RABid said:

What ever the Montage replacement is, I hope they cut back on the amount of reverb that drowned most every patch. There was not a patch that I would play on stage without editing the effects back about 5 notches.

Never going to happen.  They just have to make the patches sound huge.  But the reason you go with a workstation is to have control of every parameter of your patches.  

[AnotherScott]

On 4/14/2023 at 2:11 PM, CyberGene said:

I'm not sure if you mean the same thing but when I had a MODX, due to its rounded cross section (hence a lack of rectangular lower lip) it couldn't be used as a tilted upper keyboard because it would slide towards me and fall and I hated it immensely for that reason. 

 

I suppose that equally depends on the design of your stand, i.e. what functionality it provides to stop a tilted upper board from, sliding toward you...?

[Stokely]

re: angles on chassis

I hated the chassis on the Motif because those angles made it very hard to grip.  I almost dropped it several times.   I much prefer a more functional square-angled chassis like that on the Forte 7--it's quite a bit heavier than my old Motif 6, but it's probably about the same size despite one more octave (more compact) and has a nice square angle with an extra little lip on the bottom that makes picking it up very easy, and you have confidence that you won't drop it.  The Modx7 is easier yet, being very light and having a lip and "finger holes" (probably not the intention!) underneath...using those holes, I can pick it off the stand and literally wave the thing around    (the Modx7 is actually too light for some outdoor gigs!)

That said, I'm not a fan of the Modx7 chassis, nor was I of the Moxf8 that I owned for a while.  Bulkier than they need to be and the design seems toy-like and consumer-ish to me.  ymmv.   The white Montage is one of the best looking boards I've seen.   There have been some great prices on GC for used Montages, but all the black ones.

While I'm on pet peeves, I wish everyone would do like Kurzweil and Nord have done:  have the labels on the top and in contrasting color so that you don't need to go spelunking behind the board with a flashlight and your reading glasses to plug cables in.  (I have been meaning to get some bits of reflective tape but keep forgetting)

[CyberGene]

1 hour ago, AnotherScott said:

I suppose that equally depends on the design of your stand, i.e. what functionality it provides to stop a tilted upper board from, sliding toward you...?

 

Yes, that's true. Mine has really small lips:

[Stokely]

wow, that's really tilted   Different strokes, I actually prefer both my keyboards to be flat if possible--it's usually not good for both to be 100% level it would mean there'd be too much space and typically I need to be able to see the bottom board to some degree.  If I get a new weighted board, I'll definitely prefer it if I can find a simpler one where I can bring down the top tier more.

[ProfD]

21 hours ago, Dave Ferris said:

Just wanted to get some  collective thoughts on this. A yes or no  ? Considering there's apparently no immediate replacement in the near future.   

https://losangeles.craigslist.org/sfv/msg/d/westlake-village-brand-new-white/7615158932.html

My 1st question is how did this even become a consideration.  I thought you were done with electronic KBs.😁😎 

[Stokely]

I've seen Montage 6s on sale at GC--where you get 45 days--in "great" or "excellent" conditions for as low as $2150.  I guess if that one posted is truly brand new that's a plus.  And also, the white ones might go for more.  I was looking for a white 6 or 7 for quite a while, before going in a different direction.

[Chummy]

Yeah. Montage will be (most likely) replaced within 2023. The AN-X patent thing etc. Montage is old tech from 2016 by todays standards and even that uses waveforms from even earlier motifs. Not to mention the sluggish touch screen is the worse part of it compared to the competition's UI. Funnily enough Yamaha still has no pressure to upgrade the Montage since Korg doesn't have the Kronos for some reason it's replaced with a weaker flagship (weird). And Roland Fantom while having a much better keybed and UI, sounds worse IMO than the Montage...

[Radagast]

I don’t think Yamaha is planning on a replacement for Montage.

[pjd]

I've thought more about Yamaha's dependence on Asahi Kasei Microdevices (AKM) DACs and ADCs. The AKM factory fire was quite severe; virtually any sentence involving fire, smoke, water and semiconductor manufacturing involves catastrophe.

 

I believe the original AKM DACs in the Montage are in short supply; I can't find any on the spot market. The Montage DACs and ADCs are on a separate printed circuit board -- part of the Pure Analog Circuit (PAC) approach. 

 

Yamaha need to work around this problem somehow, at the very least redesign the analog board. Whether this is enough to force a "Montage+" release or not remains to be seen. Such is the nature of opaque, secretive companies. 😀

 

As to the internal architecture, their "2016 technology" has enough legs for a 10+ year evolution.

 

Given all the interest in "AN-X", I doubt if they will pass up an opportunity to monetize it.

 

Just some thoughts -- pj

 

[Docbop]

Yamaha buys up a lot of tech companies they keep them around while they take the tech they wanted and then some companies they shutdown and others they keep going.   I guess it's been about ten years ago that Yamaha acquired Line 6 and there guitar gear that involved a lot of modeling of amps and effects and similar devices.    I wonder what of Line 6's tech Yamaha has used in other audio products like keyboards. 

[aronnelson]

I just want Yamaha to stop making really "deep" (front to back) keyboards. Bring it back to the CS6X size and pack it full of power!!!!

I really liked my CS6X but the keyboard (keybed) was horrible!!!!!

[jazzpiano88]

I think the Seattle Strings layered with Piano on the Montage (with the 88 action) is just about as close to perfection as I've ever heard.  Ok, I guess I'd get a C7X Disclavier and MIDI it to the Montage.

 

I always thought that Lyle's strings were the holy grail of synth strings (sampled strings were always too harsh), but the Montage blows that out of the water.  Organic as all get out with the lush sound but realism of bowed instruments.

 

It's 7 years old, yes, but I'm having a hard time imagining where the sonic jump is going to be for their next flagship. 

 

The Montage is a beast electronically.   As a signal processing engineer, I'd buy one just to have in the lab as a signal generator (along with the Matrix12 of course).

[ProfD]

21 hours ago, Chummy said:

Montage is old tech from 2016 by todays standards and even that uses waveforms from even earlier motifs.

I believe Yamaha has been using the same or similar waveforms since they introduced the S80 which in some ways was the predecessor to the Motif.

 

The Montage as *old tech* reads funny to me when folks are still making music with and playing instruments that are 50+ years old. 

 

The Montage and every other ROMpler packs a reasonable facsimile of almost every instrument made over the past 300 years.😎

[kpl1228]

Always wondered what the big leap was from the "old" Motif XF7 to the Montage. Can't imagine what the leap would be from the Montage to now. If Yamaha didn't roll out a flagship synth (or start rumors) at NAMM, it still may be a ways away, no?

[Chummy]

1 hour ago, ProfD said:

I believe Yamaha has been using the same or similar waveforms since they introduced the S80 which in some ways was the predecessor to the Motif.

 

The Montage as *old tech* reads funny to me when folks are still making music with and playing instruments that are 50+ years old. 

 

The Montage and every other ROMpler packs a reasonable facsimile of almost every instrument made over the past 300 years.😎

 

It's not the concept of the Montage as an instrument, it's the implementation. Software has been advancing so much and still is. If you compare Montage's waveforms and generally the OS, the sluggish touch screen and UI, etc.  to what VSTs use, or even a Korg Kronos - than you'd understand my point, which is very clever. In fact, computers and digital technology get better every year, new chipsets, faster and more effecient proccessing. In the *technology* world 2016 is *ancient*. 

 

Sure an acoustic piano is ~300 years old but something along the lines of "we've got this far and it's good enough" will never lead to advancement and innovation. You might as well use an M1 piano sample if that's good enough for you, but a Faithful representation of "almost every instrument made over the past 300 years" is always a matter of refinment. and again, it *IS* possible to do better, look at VSTs and some other hardware instruments, and even the best VST maker will eventually lose to the competition if doesn't improve upon itself. If Yamaha doesn't do it... we'll see others take the market share.

[pjd]

1 hour ago, kpl1228 said:

Always wondered what the big leap was from the "old" Motif XF7 to the Montage. Can't imagine what the leap would be from the Montage to now. If Yamaha didn't roll out a flagship synth (or start rumors) at NAMM, it still may be a ways away, no?

 

Aside from FM-X and all the front panel gizmos and a new UI, there were a number of new waveforms/performances. I did a rough comparison versus XS and XF when I considered a Montage:

 

http://sandsoftwaresound.net/montage-new-waveforms/

 

Montage adopted the new tone generation silicon, SWP70. (Motif XF is SWP50.)

 

Yamaha included all of the old waveforms because they could -- simple as that. Why abandon them if it gives some users backward compatibility?

 

Lots of folks making music with old Yamaha gear. The limitations in my case are lack of talent, skill and practice -- not gear. 😀

 

-- pj

 

[pjd]

15 minutes ago, Chummy said:

 

It's not the concept of the Montage as an instrument, it's the implementation. Software has been advancing so much and still is. If you compare Montage's waveforms and generally the OS, the sluggish touch screen and UI, etc.  to what VSTs use, or even a Korg Kronos - than you'd understand my point, which is very clever. In fact, computers and digital technology get better every year, new chipsets, faster and more effecient proccessing. In the *technology* world 2016 is *ancient*. 

 

Sure an acoustic piano is ~300 years old but something along the lines of "we've got this far and it's good enough" will never lead to advancement and innovation. You might as well use an M1 piano sample if that's good enough for you, but a Faithful representation of "almost every instrument made over the past 300 years" is always a matter of refinment. and again, it *IS* possible to do better, look at VSTs and some other hardware instruments, and even the best VST maker will eventually lose to the competition if doesn't improve upon itself. If Yamaha doesn't do it... we'll see others take the market share.

 

I agree with your comments about innovation. That's valid.

 

As to more efficient processing, not so sure. Apple and ARM lead in this area, but even they cannot avoid basic device physics. At some point, high speed circuits consume more power and generate more heat. The Kronos weighs like an M1A1 Abrams tank because of the current and power demands of the off-the-shelf motherboard -- and a so-called power efficient ATOM board at that.

 

Yamaha's internal ARM and DSP processors (2 x SWP + SSP2 in Montage) operate without heavy heat sinks and draw modest amounts of current. And people still complain about the Montage being too heavy! It's hard to design high-performance, power efficient DSP. Memory bandwidth is another factor, maybe more important than compute for large multi-samples and high polyphony.

 

Just some thoughts -- pj

 

[Docbop]

In the ShowMeThat YouTube channel in Sebastian's  NAMM wrap up he said Yamaha is holding the new Montage till the Jan NAMM that is only eight months away.    That make sense.

 

[AnotherScott]

On 5/2/2023 at 1:37 PM, Chummy said:

Montage is old tech from 2016 by todays standards and even that uses waveforms from even earlier motifs.

 

Montage includes 5.67 GB of waveforms. 87% of it is new to the Montage, 13% is the 741mb set of the Motif XF (which also included the 355 mb set of the Motif XS, which included some but not all of the earlier Motif waveforms). This is a positive, not a negative. It means people can upgrade form old models, and not lose their favorite old sounds.

 

On 5/2/2023 at 1:37 PM, Chummy said:

Not to mention the sluggish touch screen

 

Usually (maybe always?) when I see this complaint, it's because someone didn't turn off the "eye candy" visual effects (e.g. the translucent blur background). It's a shame it's on by default, because, well, it gives get the impression that it's inherently sluggish.

 

8 hours ago, ProfD said:

I believe Yamaha has been using the same or similar waveforms since they introduced the S80 which in some ways was the predecessor to the Motif.😎

 

The S80 had a whopping 24 mb of sample data. I actually wish they did have that as part of their 5+ GB because, yes, I've missed some of my old S30 sounds. But all these years later, maybe if I put the two boards side by side, I wouldn't miss them after all. 😉

 

8 hours ago, kpl1228 said:

Always wondered what the big leap was from the "old" Motif XF7 to the Montage.

 

In terms of things I cares about, besides lots more sounds and the increase from 0.74 GB to 5.67 of wave data, there's also the FM synth, the seamless sound switching, the touchscreen patch selection, the ability to have sounds with more than 8 elements, etc. But you lose some things too, especially in terms of sequencing and MIDI functionality.

 

[Chummy]

11 hours ago, AnotherScott said:

 

Usually (maybe always?) when I see this complaint, it's because someone didn't turn off the "eye candy" visual effects (e.g. the translucent blur background). It's a shame it's on by default, because, well, it gives get the impression that it's inherently sluggish.

 

 

Nope, I actually owned Montage for 2 years. and I disabled the blur, screen animation and even the click sound - everything to make it more smooth.

Yet it's not - mine was updated to the latest version then - V3.0 . So now you can say that many times when you saw this complaint, it's because somebody didn't turn off the eye candy but not this time^

 

I'd seen tablets and phones from earlier gens react better... you know it only when you own one.